IFR magazine questions

I would have thought the two words were "this is".
 
nddons said:
Phew. I thought you meant he was not a pilot any more as in that he was no longer living, until I opened up the link to the case. Thanks for posting that Ron.
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BTW, Eden did later requalify for a pilot certificate after that revocation, but only for a couple of years before it was again revoked and never reissued. Some folks just never learn...
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, Eden did later requalify for a pilot certificate after that revocation, but only for a couple of years before it was again revoked and never reissued. Some folks just never learn...
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"Whoa, dumber than advertised."

How'd he get revoked the second time? and I thought you couldn't requalify after revocation in the first place...
 
jmaynard said:
How'd he get revoked the second time?
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See http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4595.PDF.
and I thought you couldn't requalify after revocation in the first place...
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One year after the revocation you can reapply for a pilot certificate, but you have to pass all the tests again (although all previously logged flight and training time counts). Thus, he had to take the Private, Instrument, Commercial, ME, and ATP knowledge and practical tests in sequence to regain his ATP certificate, but needed only whatever ground training was needed to get the knowledge test endorsement and whatever dual time (min 3 hrs in most cases) was needed to get a CFI to sign the practical test endorsements and 8710-1 for each certificate/rating.

Hayden "Jim" Shaeffer (the Smoketown Bandit) was talking about doing that a year after he lost his ticket for busting the ADIZ/FRZ a few years ago. The FAA told his lawyer that he could apply for a new certificate, but he shouldn't waste his time. See 14 CFR 61.13(a)(2)(ii) -- the exception to the "must issue" clause in the following subparagraph (3). I suspect Mr. Eden was told the same after his second revocation, and that there is a little list in the Administrator's office of those to whom that rule is to be applied if they ever try to get a new license.
 
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Ron Levy said:
See http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4595.PDF.
One year after the revocation you can reapply for a pilot certificate, but you have to pass all the tests again (although all previously logged flight and training time counts). Thus, he had to take the Private, Instrument, Commercial, ME, and ATP knowledge and practical tests in sequence to regain his ATP certificate, but needed only whatever ground training was needed to get the knowledge test endorsement and whatever dual time (min 3 hrs in most cases) was needed to get a CFI to sign the practical test endorsements and 8710-1 for each certificate/rating.

Hayden "Jim" Shaeffer (the Smoketown Bandit) was talking about doing that a year after he lost his ticket for busting the ADIZ/FRZ a few years ago. The FAA told his lawyer that he could apply for a new certificate, but he shouldn't waste his time. See 14 CFR 61.13(a)(2)(ii) -- the exception to the "must issue" clause in the following subparagraph (3). I suspect Mr. Eden was told the same after his second revocation, and that there is a little list in the Administrator's office of those to whom that rule is to be applied if they ever try to get a new license.
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Man - I'd have given Shaeffer another shot (he was lost and ignorant, but not malicious) before giving Eden one (Eden apparently deliberately lied to ATC on multiple occasions).
 
wabower said:
So based on that criteria I assume you don't subscribe to any aviation trade mags?
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AOPA and EAA but that is it. They got boring. And IFR really was just repeating itself at about every 3rd issue. I did like Scott's articles but for the cost it seemed a little high to just get the mag for one thing when I could get a lot of the same info online for free.
 
TMetzinger said:
Man - I'd have given Shaeffer another shot (he was lost and ignorant, but not malicious) before giving Eden one (Eden apparently deliberately lied to ATC on multiple occasions).
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OTOH, Eden didn't bring the US government to a screeching halt, scare a million people half to death, and make real-time national news. Not saying I agree, just that I see the politics.
 
#4 is a Cruise Clearance. It authorizes you to proceed direct destination, descend at will upon notifying ATC, and shoot the approach. To climb back to a altitude higher than your present one, you have to request permission from ATC.
 
Noah Werka said:
#4 is a Cruise Clearance. It authorizes you to proceed direct destination, descend at will upon notifying ATC, and shoot the approach. To climb back to a altitude higher than your present one, you have to request permission from ATC.
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Where do you find the authorization to proceed direct? With the exception of authorizing the pilot to shoot any approach at the destination, all of the pubs I can find refer to cruise clearances in vertical terms, not lateral.

Bob Gardner
 
Noah Werka said:
#4 is a Cruise Clearance. It authorizes you to proceed direct destination, descend at will upon notifying ATC, and shoot the approach. To climb back to a altitude higher than your present one, you have to request permission from ATC.
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How does a cruise clearance "get you direct when everyone else is being re-routed"?
 
This is the best reference I can find, straight from the FAA.

Pilot/Controller Glossary:

CRUISE- Used in an ATC clearance to authorize a pilot to conduct flight at any altitude from the minimum IFR altitude up to and including the altitude specified in the clearance. The pilot may level off at any intermediate altitude within this block of airspace. Climb/descent within the block is to be made at the discretion of the pilot. However, once the pilot starts descent and verbally reports leaving an altitude in the block, he/she may not return to that altitude without additional ATC clearance. Further, it is approval for the pilot to proceed to and make an approach at destination airport and can be used in conjunction with:

a. An airport clearance limit at locations with a standard/special instrument approach procedure. The CFRs require that if an instrument letdown to an airport is necessary, the pilot shall make the letdown in accordance with a standard/special instrument approach procedure for that airport, or

b. An airport clearance limit at locations that are within/below/outside controlled airspace and without a standard/special instrument approach procedure. Such a clearance is NOT AUTHORIZATION for the pilot to descend under IFR conditions below the applicable minimum IFR altitude nor does it imply that ATC is exercising control over aircraft in Class G airspace; however, it provides a means for the aircraft to proceed to destination airport, descend, and land in accordance with applicable CFRs governing VFR flight operations. Also, this provides search and rescue protection until such time as the IFR flight plan is closed.
 
Noah Werka said:
This is the best reference I can find, straight from the FAA.

Pilot/Controller Glossary:

CRUISE- Used in an ATC clearance to authorize a pilot to conduct flight at any altitude from the minimum IFR altitude up to and including the altitude specified in the clearance. The pilot may level off at any intermediate altitude within this block of airspace. Climb/descent within the block is to be made at the discretion of the pilot. However, once the pilot starts descent and verbally reports leaving an altitude in the block, he/she may not return to that altitude without additional ATC clearance. Further, it is approval for the pilot to proceed to and make an approach at destination airport and can be used in conjunction with:

a. An airport clearance limit at locations with a standard/special instrument approach procedure. The CFRs require that if an instrument letdown to an airport is necessary, the pilot shall make the letdown in accordance with a standard/special instrument approach procedure for that airport, or

b. An airport clearance limit at locations that are within/below/outside controlled airspace and without a standard/special instrument approach procedure. Such a clearance is NOT AUTHORIZATION for the pilot to descend under IFR conditions below the applicable minimum IFR altitude nor does it imply that ATC is exercising control over aircraft in Class G airspace; however, it provides a means for the aircraft to proceed to destination airport, descend, and land in accordance with applicable CFRs governing VFR flight operations. Also, this provides search and rescue protection until such time as the IFR flight plan is closed.
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So how do you get a cruise clearance when everyone else is being re-routed?
 
Noah Werka said:
This is the best reference I can find, straight from the FAA.

Pilot/Controller Glossary:

CRUISE- Used in an ATC clearance to authorize a pilot to conduct flight at any altitude from the minimum IFR altitude up to and including the altitude specified in the clearance. The pilot may level off at any intermediate altitude within this block of airspace. Climb/descent within the block is to be made at the discretion of the pilot. However, once the pilot starts descent and verbally reports leaving an altitude in the block, he/she may not return to that altitude without additional ATC clearance. Further, it is approval for the pilot to proceed to and make an approach at destination airport and can be used in conjunction with:

a. An airport clearance limit at locations with a standard/special instrument approach procedure. The CFRs require that if an instrument letdown to an airport is necessary, the pilot shall make the letdown in accordance with a standard/special instrument approach procedure for that airport, or

b. An airport clearance limit at locations that are within/below/outside controlled airspace and without a standard/special instrument approach procedure. Such a clearance is NOT AUTHORIZATION for the pilot to descend under IFR conditions below the applicable minimum IFR altitude nor does it imply that ATC is exercising control over aircraft in Class G airspace; however, it provides a means for the aircraft to proceed to destination airport, descend, and land in accordance with applicable CFRs governing VFR flight operations. Also, this provides search and rescue protection until such time as the IFR flight plan is closed.
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Interesting interpretation. I have used cruise clearances many times, and each time I was established on an airway in accordance with a route clearance. I understood the cruise clearance to give me vertical latitude, and I took advantage of it. I never read "direct" into the cruise clearance and I am pretty sure that I would have heard from Center if I had diverged from my route clearance.

Bob Gardner
 
A cruise clearance relates only to vertical navigation and SIAP's. There's nothing in the description in the AIM or P/CG which authorizes you to deviate from your last route clearance.
 
Ron Levy said:
A cruise clearance relates only to vertical navigation and SIAP's. There's nothing in the description in the AIM or P/CG which authorizes you to deviate from your last route clearance.
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I think Mr. Werka should note that a pilot on a cruise clearance can go no lower than the minimum IFR altitude along his/her filed route and then read the definition of MEA.

Bob Gardner
 
I think the only clearance that counts as the "cruise" clearance is something like "N12345, Cleared to Destination, Cruise 5000, Squawk 4321". That let's you go direct, at any altitude you want up to 5000, and commence an approach. Might be used where you will be in IMC at the beginning and in good weather at the end, and there's no instrument approach. I think the example in the Jepp book was for a trip out west from one tiny airport to another.

If they wanted you to follow a specified route and give you discretion as to altitude, then they'd say "N12345, Cleared to Destination Via blah blah blah, cruise 5000, squawk 4321". That would also let you commence an approach from your clearance limit if your clearance limit is an airport. At least that's how I read it.

And I've never gotten a cruise clearance, though I've gotten blocks at times.
 
TMetzinger said:
I think the only clearance that counts as the "cruise" clearance is something like "N12345, Cleared to Destination, Cruise 5000, Squawk 4321"
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Not quite. I believe that would have to be "Cleared Direct (to) Destination...
 
TMetzinger said:
I think the only clearance that counts as the "cruise" clearance is something like "N12345, Cleared to Destination, Cruise 5000, Squawk 4321". That let's you go direct, at any altitude you want up to 5000, and commence an approach. Might be used where you will be in IMC at the beginning and in good weather at the end, and there's no instrument approach. I think the example in the Jepp book was for a trip out west from one tiny airport to another.

If they wanted you to follow a specified route and give you discretion as to altitude, then they'd say "N12345, Cleared to Destination Via blah blah blah, cruise 5000, squawk 4321". That would also let you commence an approach from your clearance limit if your clearance limit is an airport. At least that's how I read it.

And I've never gotten a cruise clearance, though I've gotten blocks at times.
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How about any altitude you want between 5000 and the MEA? Can't go below the MEA unless there is a published MOCA, and even then you have to be within 22nm of the destination (I know that Qroutes routes are popping up for the satellite-navigation folks, but they apply only where they exist and only about 18,000 feet. Duh.) And I agree with others that the word "Direct" has be be included in the clearance if indeed that is the controller's intent.

Bob Gardner
 
TMetzinger said:
I think the only clearance that counts as the "cruise" clearance is something like "N12345, Cleared to Destination, Cruise 5000, Squawk 4321". That let's you go direct, at any altitude you want up to 5000, and commence an approach.
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Any altitude you want between 5000 and an altitude consistent with FAR 91.177.

Might be used where you will be in IMC at the beginning and in good weather at the end, and there's no instrument approach.
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You wouldn't get a cruise clearance at the beginning of a flight unless it was a very short one.
 
Gentlemen, Just got off the phone with a controller{25 yrs. exp). Currently a tower controller. Was an approach controller and enroute controller for 20 yrs. According to him when you are given a cruise clearance, "Cleared to XYZ, cruise x000", at that point you are cleared direct to your destination. That is a new clearance. It does not necessarily have to include the word direct. If he wants you to fly your flight plan route, he should include that fact. Otherwise he expects you to proceed direct to XYZ. I know this ain't a final legal interpretation, so your milage may vary. Just like everything else the FAA does, every part of the country and FSDO will have a different interpretation.
 
Noah Werka said:
Gentlemen, Just got off the phone with a controller{25 yrs. exp). Currently a tower controller. Was an approach controller and enroute controller for 20 yrs. According to him when you are given a cruise clearance, "Cleared to XYZ, cruise x000", at that point you are cleared direct to your destination. That is a new clearance. It does not necessarily have to include the word direct. If he wants you to fly your flight plan route, he should include that fact. Otherwise he expects you to proceed direct to XYZ. I know this ain't a final legal interpretation, so your milage may vary. Just like everything else the FAA does, every part of the country and FSDO will have a different interpretation.
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Can you get him back on the phone and ask him what paragraph of 7110.65 supports his position?
 
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I spoke with our resident controller/CFI a bit ago. He said a "Cruise Clearance" is a clearance to and including the approach. He also said it's not desirable as it gives up too much airspace for controller use.
 
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