PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
If they say it to me I'll say it on read back.
IFR Instructions Read-Back
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If they say it to me I'll say it on read back.
Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
Yeah, I hear that.. eventually you learn what to anticipate and when. Sometimes at new places you'll still get caught off guard..
By the way, this is we're having a capable autopilot really helps.. you can set the headings and altitude bugs as you hear them
Ravioli
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Unwanted Guest - Perma-ban Pending
two zero zero to widget, cross three thousand, rnav 36, report established, nXXX. (That's a pretty easy read back, assuming you're looking at the plate)
Edit: As others have said!
I will say Foreflight has been a great help in this area. File the plan and get an email back with the filed plan, usually another email with an amended plan, which so far 100% of time has been what ATC has given. But I am always prepared for a change.
99% of the time the expected route kicked back from FF (or one of the other efiling site) works. On odd times it doesn't. I remember filing out of OWD to CJR and really after hitting the first navaid V3 goes all the way to MRB (and appears to go well west of the NY class B). Well, I filed for that, I got it back as the expected route. It even printed out in the OWD tower. I get something like:
Navion 5327K, you're cleared to CJR via... oh, hell, that's not going to work, hold on... do you have your pencil ready? And then rather than my elegant V3 all the way down I got a bunch of fixes in Connecticut then down the middle of Long Island Sound to JFK and then V16 down and then to IAD (mind you the airport not AML the VOR that's on the field) and then CJR.
1. File what you want.
2. Fly what you get.
3. Log what you need.
Navion 5327K, you're cleared to CJR via... oh, hell, that's not going to work, hold on... do you have your pencil ready? And then rather than my elegant V3 all the way down I got a bunch of fixes in Connecticut then down the middle of Long Island Sound to JFK and then V16 down and then to IAD (mind you the airport not AML the VOR that's on the field) and then CJR.
1. File what you want.
2. Fly what you get.
3. Log what you need.
No. But for some reading it back verbatim helps fix it in memory. For others, it would a exercise much like a court reporter who is just registering sounds but remembering little or none of it, while repeating only "200, 3000 til XXX, cleared for the approach" solidifies it for them. My guess is both are fine with ATC.
Whatever "shorthand" method you come up with, before you tell ATC that you are ready for takeoff, look it over again and make sure that what you have written is clear enough to be deciphered in flight, and request repeats if and where necessary. There is an airport near here that has the most complicated departure instructions I have ever encountered. The one time I made an IFR departure from there, after I was airborne I had a devil of a time trying to figure out some of what I had written.
Will Kumley
Line Up and Wait
I don't have my IFR ticket yet but have you considered practicing while sitting at home? There are plenty of youtube videos of pilots flying and a lot of them include their IFR clearance. grab a pencil and paper, set up like you would be in the airplane and copy along. You can then rewind the video and see how much of it you got right. Maybe you could also pick your local airport freq on a website that hosts ATC communications. Even if its an old sound file you can get into the habit of practicing, seeing what work for you, and using the repetition at home to hone your skills before you ever get to the airport. Just a thought.
Yep, you can use Jerry's video as a bad example. You can copy the clearance and figure out how to fly it (just don't use the ensuing video to check your answer).
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
KSQL by chance...their VFR instructions are complicated enough.
Yes.
"Cessna 12345, San Carlos Ground, cleared to the Half Moon Bay Airport. On departure, fly runway heading until past the diamond-shaped waterway. Then turn right heading 120. Keep your turn within two miles of the airport, for radar vectors to Woodside, direct Tails, direct. Maintain VFR conditions at or below 1,100 until crossing the Oakland 165 radial. Then climb and maintain 2,100. Expect 5,000 five minutes after departure. Norcal Departure Control frequency 135.65. Squawk 1234."
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
My radio cuts off after 30 seconds (stuck mic prevention), so I have to click off/on in the middle of all that. They really need a departure procedure, preferably GPS, so I an just load it up instead of all that.
Interesting.
By the way, the procedure I quoted was transcribed several years ago. Whether those are still the IFR departure instructions being issued, I don't know.
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
You can go to liveatc.net, listen for the clearance beforehand, write it all down. Use the VP waypoints to help guide you.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Any controller who put forth the proposition that full, verbatim, read backs should be required instead of that example would be taken out back and be given an attitude adjustment.
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Controllers are only required to get readbacks of darn few things (runway hold shorts/crossings, for example).
True, but I don't really have any need to do that, and waiting for someone to request an IFR departure would be time-consuming.
Instructors at my airport are apparently teaching students to read back every single word that ATC says. Considering how busy the tower frequency gets at times, I think it's a bad idea. It also makes me wonder how the students have enough mental bandwidth left over to aviate and navigate. ("Aviate, navigate, communicate.")
ateamer
Pattern Altitude
Do they still issue VFR instructions that include the long-gone horse track that is unrecognizable?
I seldom fly out of there, so I looked up the currently-published noise-abatement procedures, and it looks like the "Bay Meadows Departure" is now the "Hillsdale Departure."
http://www.sancarlosairport.org/noise-abatement-procedures/
Plano Pilot
Line Up and Wait
I know fltplan.com will email you an expected route if you set it up and I believe the others will also.
My short hand looks this this: Decoded it is Left 050, Radar Vectors Swaber6.Hudad after Hudad it was direct to KDlS but they did not say that since it was our filed route. Climb Maintain 2,000 expect FL400 in 10 minutes, Departure 124.3 Squak 1234. Sorry I could not remember the Squak code they gave us.
My short hand looks this this: Decoded it is Left 050, Radar Vectors Swaber6.Hudad after Hudad it was direct to KDlS but they did not say that since it was our filed route. Climb Maintain 2,000 expect FL400 in 10 minutes, Departure 124.3 Squak 1234. Sorry I could not remember the Squak code they gave us.
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Of course, there was a time where I was flying the same route over and over again. The only thing that would change would be the initial fix and the departure frequency (always one of two choices depending on whether the airport was in a north or south operation at the time) and the squawk. I'd not copy anything, rather just dial-in the departure frequency in the #2 comm and the transponder code in the transponder.