IFR Flight plans and the Kings

flhrci

flhrci

Final Approach
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David
So, I am reviewing my King IR written test prep in preparation for going after my CFII. I have not flown in the system for years. Going through the flight planning portion last night, John King says to file a flight plan with the time en route block only reflecting the time to first point of intended landing, even if there are other points of landing. He did not say what to do next. Is this the way you all do it in real life and if so, what about time en route to the additional points of intended landing? Update the flight plan en route or ignore it because you are on an active flight plan and ATC knows where you are and where you are going?

VFR flight plans I always put the entire time en route plus some extra time and teach this also. To me an IFR round robin would be similar. but I want to know the correct way and to teach the correct way.

Thanks,

David
 
I'm not sure b/c I haven't done any IFR with multiple stops. I believe you are supposed to file separate flight plans for each stop. I'm sure someone will comment shortly that knows for sure.
 
Technically they can hold your IFR plan open as you operate thorugh an airport, but the thing is unwieldy at non-towered fields as you lock out other IFR operations. File separate plans. You can put multiple plans in either via the computer or FSS.
 
flhrci said:
So, I am reviewing my King IR written test prep in preparation for going after my CFII. I have not flown in the system for years. Going through the flight planning portion last night, John King says to file a flight plan with the time en route block only reflecting the time to first point of intended landing, even if there are other points of landing. He did not say what to do next. Is this the way you all do it in real life and if so, what about time en route to the additional points of intended landing? Update the flight plan en route or ignore it because you are on an active flight plan and ATC knows where you are and where you are going?

VFR flight plans I always put the entire time en route plus some extra time and teach this also. To me an IFR round robin would be similar. but I want to know the correct way and to teach the correct way.
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"The point of first intended landing and the estimated elapsed time until over that point", says the flight plan regulation. Similar language appears in the fuel requirements regulations. In the minds of those that write the regulations "point of first intended landing" must be something other than the destination airport, else the regulations would use those words. FAA Form 7233-1 FLIGHT PLAN does not use the language found in the regulation, block #9 calls for "DESTINATION (Name of airport and city)". The AIM instruction for that block says to enter the destination airport identifier, or the airport name if the identifier is unknown, and to include the city name only if needed for clarity. The instructions for block #10, "EST. TIME ENROUTE", add nothing as no more is needed. Clearly, the estimated time enroute is the time needed to go from the departure airport entered in block #5 DEPARTURE POINT to the destination airport via the route entered in block #8 ROUTE OF FLIGHT.

I'd go with the AIM if I were you.
 
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It's easier to file separate flight plans,you just ask the controller to activate the next plan you have on file.
 
flhrci said:
Update the flight plan en route or ignore it because you are on an active flight plan and ATC knows where you are and where you are going?
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I have never updated by time enroute with ATC. They see you on radar, they know when you are getting somewhere. I asked my brother who is a Center controller about telling ATC if the TAS changes by 5 percent or 10 knots. They can see on your flight data strip what TAS you are doing.
 
The advise of speed change/ETE is for non-radar environments.
 
EdFred said:
Never had center or approach say anything if I've sped up or slowed down.
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Which is exactly why I said I never do it. They know your TAS and GS on the flight data strips. The AIM 5-1-12 mentions nothing about radar or non-radar environments.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Which is exactly why I said I never do it. They know your TAS and GS on the flight data strips. The AIM 5-1-12 mentions nothing about radar or non-radar environments.
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See AIM 5-3-3. AIM 5-1 is Preflight, 5-3 is En Route Procedures.
 
roncachamp said:
See AIM 5-3-3. AIM 5-1 is Preflight, 5-3 is En Route Procedures.
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It says the exact...same...thing...

They both relate to what was put in the flight plan...back during your preflight stage
 
Gucci Pilot said:
It says the exact...same...thing...

They both relate to what was put in the flight plan...back during your preflight stage
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5-3-3 applies to being airborne.

The controller should update the new TAS in the computer so subsequent facilities get accurate estimates on arrival times to their airspace. 10 kts or 5 % isn't a big deal but on a long cross country I suppose it could add up.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
It says the exact...same...thing...

They both relate to what was put in the flight plan...back during your preflight stage
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No, they don't say the exact...same...thing... You wrote; "The AIM 5-1-12 mentions nothing about radar or non-radar environments." AIM 5-1-12 says nothing about radar or non-radar environments, but AIM 5-3-3 does.
 
roncachamp said:
No, they don't say the exact...same...thing... You wrote; "The AIM 5-1-12 mentions nothing about radar or non-radar environments." AIM 5-1-12 says nothing about radar or non-radar environments, but AIM 5-3-3 does.
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Ok... but the TAS deviation reporting instruction in 5-3-3 falls under:

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:
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Yeah 5-3-3 mentions radar and non-radar environment reporting instructions but for the TAS deviation, it doesn't matter if you are in the radar environment or not.


Velocity173 said:
5-3-3 applies to being airborne.
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I understand that. But think about that then... So because 5-1-12 falls under pre-flight, I am required to tell ATC when my TAS changes by 5 percent or 10 knots. Well I am sitting in the FBO...I have never ran through the FBO at 11 MPH. They are saying that when you are airborne, if your TAS changes from what you put on your flight plan by 5 percent or 10 knots, tell ATC. You two are comparing apples to apples.
 
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Gucci Pilot said:
Ok... but the TAS deviation reporting instruction in 5-3-3 falls under:



Yeah 5-3-3 mentions radar and non-radar environment reporting instructions but for the TAS deviation, it doesn't matter if you are in the radar environment or not.
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Correct. As I said in message #8, speed changes are to be reported at all times while changes in time estimates are to be reported only when non-radar.

I understand that. But think about that then... So because 5-1-12 falls under pre-flight, I am required to tell ATC when my TAS changes by 5 percent or 10 knots. Well I am sitting in the FBO...I have never ran through the FBO at 11 MPH. They are saying that when you are airborne, if your TAS changes from what you put on your flight plan by 5 percent or 10 knots, tell ATC. You two are comparing apples to apples.
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You say that like it's a bad thing.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
I have never updated by time enroute with ATC. They see you on radar, they know when you are getting somewhere. I asked my brother who is a Center controller about telling ATC if the TAS changes by 5 percent or 10 knots. They can see on your flight data strip what TAS you are doing.
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When you're given a PD descent, do you tell the controller when you're "departing FL350 for FL270"? They can see on your data strip what altitude you're at.
 
Sluggo63 said:
When you're given a PD descent, do you tell the controller when you're "departing FL350 for FL270"? They can see on your data strip what altitude you're at.
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"Center Reach XX in the descent"
 
Gucci Pilot said:
"Center Reach XX in the descent"
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Why would you do that? They gave you the descent, at your discretion, and they see your altitude on the data strip... Why garbage up the radios with a needless transmission?
 
Sluggo63 said:
Why would you do that? They gave you the descent, at your discretion, and they see your altitude on the data strip... Why garbage up the radios with a needless transmission?
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I understand your point. Why report things ATC can see you doing? But if "Center Reach XX in the descent" immediately follows the descent instruction it serves as acknowledgement of that ATC transmission.
 
roncachamp said:
I understand your point. Why report things ATC can see you doing? But if "Center Reach XX in the descent" immediately follows the descent instruction it serves as acknowledgement of that ATC transmission.
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I usually stay up for a while before descending when given "pilot's discretion." Because if I'm up, I'm getting tailwinds, so I will acknowledge the transmission, but my descent probably won't happen immediately.
 
I always just file multiple plans. If I have two let's say I will look at my estimated arrival time and add 30 minutes then use that as the departure time for the next leg. That works out well for me to refuel then get back out. If I'm early I can activate the next IFR leg 30 minutes early and if delayed it is good for two hours beyond that time. This has always worked out well and is easy to do. I use fltplan.com and it estimates my TAS based on my chosen altitude. Not much thinking to be done and it is pretty accurate for me. I've got a few profiles I use there depending on what I'm flying.
 
EdFred said:
I usually stay up for a while before descending when given "pilot's discretion." Because if I'm up, I'm getting tailwinds, so I will acknowledge the transmission, but my descent probably won't happen immediately.
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That's fine, if the instruction is not acknowledged the controller will repeat it until it is. But there's no good reason to later report beginning the descent.
 
narchee said:
I always just file multiple plans. If I have two let's say I will look at my estimated arrival time and add 30 minutes then use that as the departure time for the next leg. That works out well for me to refuel then get back out. If I'm early I can activate the next IFR leg 30 minutes early and if delayed it is good for two hours beyond that time. This has always worked out well and is easy to do. I use fltplan.com and it estimates my TAS based on my chosen altitude. Not much thinking to be done and it is pretty accurate for me. I've got a few profiles I use there depending on what I'm flying.
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Either I misunderstood the original question or everyone else did. Suppose you file a flight plan from KABC and return back to KABC with landings at KDEF and KGHI. You want to practice instrument approaches at those intermediate airports, land, taxi back, and continue on your route. From the OP; "John King says to file a flight plan with the time en route block only reflecting the time to first point of intended landing". That would be KDEF, but what about the rest of the trip?
 
Sluggo63 said:
Why would you do that? They gave you the descent, at your discretion, and they see your altitude on the data strip... Why garbage up the radios with a needless transmission?
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You asked if I let them know when I am descending. When I am ready to descent on a PD descent, I say, "Center, Reach XX in the descent".

I acknowledge the PD descent instruction by saying "PD down to FLXXX, Reach XX"

I let them know when I am descending because in the time it takes for the radar to make another sweep I could be several hundred feet off my original altitude. I let them know because now they can give my old altitude to someone else, therefore freeing up airspace. That's a little different than a TAS difference of 10 knots or 5%. When flying oceanic you try to fly the speed you filed for because...there is no radar coverage and separation is all based on altitude separation, track separation, and timing based on speeds.

All I am saying is when I am CONUS and in radar coverage, I don't worry about advising ATC of a TAS change of 10 knots or 5% or a change to time enroute. I don't bother keeping track of it, and controllers have told me they don't care about it either.
 
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Gucci Pilot said:
You asked if I let them know when I am descending. When I am ready to descent on a PD descent, I say, "Center, Reach XX in the descent".

I acknowledge the PD descent instruction by saying "PD down to FLXXX, Reach XX"

I let them know when I am descending because in the time it takes for the radar to make another sweep I could be several hundred feet off my original altitude. I let them know because now they can give my old altitude to someone else, therefore freeing up airspace. That's a little different than a TAS difference of 10 knots or 5%. When flying oceanic you try to fly the speed you filed for because...there is no radar coverage and separation is all based on altitude separation, track separation, and timing based on speeds.

All I am saying is when I am CONUS and in radar coverage, I don't worry about advising ATC of a TAS change of 10 knots or 5% or a change to time enroute. I don't bother keeping track of it, and controllers have told me they don't care about it either.
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Negative. Reporting out of an altitude on a discretionary descent does not make that altitude available to someone else.
 
10 kts or 5 % is just a simple flight plan update for ATC. Is it all that important? Nope, in 8 yrs of ATC I've probably updated a flight plan TAS a handful of times. But, ATC is required to transfer accurate flight progress information from one controller to the next. Can't do that unless the pilot has provided that information.

It becomes important in the rare cases where aircraft are showing up at your boundary extremely early or extremely late. Generally has nothing to do with a TAS change, it's forecasted winds aloft being inaccurate or poor pilot planning. If for some reason it's because of a TAS change, the controller can update the new TAS with the aircraft's present position and the computer will recalculate arrival times later on down the road. Yeah it's rare but the FAA would still like pilots to make the report AT ALL TIMES.

TAS on a strip means nothing for the OP's question. Mode S will send out a TAS but that's not what's on a flight progress strip. That's just a filed number. Also, that only shows up on a center generated strip and not a terminal strip below. In order to get filed TAS at a terminal facility the controller has to do a flight plan readout (FR) from the flight data computer to get it. You can bet if radar goes out, the controller is going to FR all aircraft inbound to their airspace to see if they'll have any speed issues with faster aircraft behind slower aircraft.

Not sure why we got sidetracked with leaving altitude but that's a 5-3-3 recommendation as well. Not to mention an ATC requirement to obtain acknowledgement. As Steven said, you can't assign another aircraft that altitude on a PD. One good reason to actually report leaving is it allows the controller to put a line thru the previous altitude instead of waiting to observe it in the scope.
 

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It's good to know that TAS updates actually do accomplish a useful purpose - thanks!
 
roncachamp said:
Negative. Reporting out of an altitude on a discretionary descent does not make that altitude available to someone else.
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Velocity173 said:
As Steven said, you can't assign another aircraft that altitude on a PD. One good reason to actually report leaving is it allows the controller to put a line thru the previous altitude instead of waiting to observe it in the scope.
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Well obviously just saying the magic words doesn't free it up, you would have to be 1,000 below that altitude before you could put a plane there.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Well obviously just saying the magic words doesn't free it up, you would have to be 1,000 below that altitude before you could put a plane there.
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If ATC actually needs that altitude you will be leaving wouldn't they send you down anyway? In other words instead of giving you discretion and then hoping that you start down soon they would send you down without discretion. I've heard plenty of "Descend to XXX now and on reaching that pilot's discretion down to YYY" where YYY is less than XXX. Otherwise it seems like extra talking to let ATC know you're starting down. "Pilot's Discretion" means discretion doesn't it? I suppose it doesn't hurt to let them know if the frequency is not busy but it doesn't seem required to me.
 
To simplify the above since we're getting off track.

Pilots discretion descent, ATC cannot assign another aircraft to that altitude until appropriate vertical seperation (500 / 1000 / 2000) exists.

Normal descent instruction by ATC, they can immediately assign another aircraft that altitude once the lower aircraft reports or observed (mode C)leaving the altitude.

Two different applications. One done during light traffic and one done during increased traffic load.
 
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Gucci Pilot said:
You asked if I let them know when I am descending. When I am ready to descent on a PD descent, I say, "Center, Reach XX in the descent".

I acknowledge the PD descent instruction by saying "PD down to FLXXX, Reach XX"

I let them know when I am descending because in the time it takes for the radar to make another sweep I could be several hundred feet off my original altitude. I let them know because now they can give my old altitude to someone else, therefore freeing up airspace.
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Funny, I do it because it's required of me...
AIM 5-3-3 said:
5-3-3. Additional Reports
a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:
1. At all times.
(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
(b) When an altitude change will be made if operating on a clearance specifying VFR-on-top.
(c) When unable to climb/descend at a rate of a least 500 feet per minute.
(d) When approach has been missed. (Request clearance for specific action; i.e., to alternative airport, another approach, etc.)
(e) Change in the average true airspeed (at cruising altitude) when it varies by 5 percent or 10 knots (whichever is greater) from that filed in the flight plan.
(f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared.
(g) When leaving any assigned holding fix or point.
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I do (a) because it's required. That's why I also do (e). Same paragraph, same requirement... whether you think it's important or not.

Gucci Pilot said:
That's a little different than a TAS difference of 10 knots or 5%. When flying oceanic you try to fly the speed you filed for because...there is no radar coverage and separation is all based on altitude separation, track separation, and timing based on speeds.
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Actually, across the Altantic, you fly the speed you were assigned in your Oceanic Clearance, which often times is different than the one you filed. But I'm sure that's what you meant.

I know you're a KC-10 guy, but when I'm flying in my highly-advanced, state of the art 50-year-old KC-135 (:wink2:), I'm ADS-C and CPDLC all the way across the ocean, so it's almost like they have me in radar contact. I don't make position reports, and have no crossing times to update, since they can just ping the jet and get everything they need, including the route in our FMSs.

Gucci Pilot said:
All I am saying is when I am CONUS and in radar coverage, I don't worry about advising ATC of a TAS change of 10 knots or 5% or a change to time enroute. I don't bother keeping track of it, and controllers have told me they don't care about it either.
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All i'm saying is that it's a requirement in the AIM (and in the FIH), so I do it. I've had controllers sound like they don't care, and others seem like they were happy that I told them.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Funny, I do it because it's required of me...


I know you're a KC-10 guy, but when I'm flying in my highly-advanced, state of the art 50-year-old KC-135 (:wink2:), I'm ADS-C and CPDLC all the way across the ocean, so it's almost like they have me in radar contact. I don't make position reports, and have no crossing times to update, since they can just ping the jet and get everything they need, including the route in our FMSs.
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As Steven said, "should" and the AIM isn't a regulatory document. And in the FIH it also says "should"

Unlike you guys we don't have the luxury of ADS-C or CPDLC on the majority of our jets(but they are soon all gonna have it). I was using it as an example of when I think it is obviously important to be on the correct speed.

I haven't had a controller say anything about my TAS being different than what I filed and until that day comes, I'm not gonna worry about it.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
As Steven said, "should" and the AIM isn't a regulatory document. And in the FIH it also says "should"
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I know I'm picking nits here, and truthfully, I don't always remember to update my TAS with center (except when I'm supposed to be doing a RV-G on AR202 with a Team, and he's late..again, and I have to slow 100kts to make my time good... ;-) )

So, if I understand you correctly, all of those reports that are to be made "At All Times" in the AIM are just "shoulds." Don't have to call entering a holding fix, reporting a missed approach, or vacating an altitude. I'll remember that...

Gucci Pilot said:
Unlike you guys we don't have the luxury of ADS-C or CPDLC on the majority of our jets(but they are soon all gonna have it). I was using it as an example of when I think it is obviously important to be on the correct speed.
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That's great. I think you'll like it. Crossing the pond and only having to make two HF calls... It's beautiful...

Anyhow, we're all on the same team, here... I'll see you out in 777...
 
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