IFR departure

skidoo

skidoo

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skidoo
I'm looking to depart 8S1 IFR to the South. This has one SID departure procedure to the North. The valley is about 3K and the MEA is 13K for the airway due to terrain to the East. I go this way VFR no problem and know where the terrain is. This will be my first time IFR on my own. I went this way once during training and we did not do the SID. Typically, going South, I can't reach Center until about 10K msl.

So, I am wondering what to expect for climbing along the airway V231 since I won't reach the MEA until the end of the MEA segment heading South.

Will ATC allow me to depart IFR to the South to Join V231? I likely won't be able to talk to them after departing until reaching 10K to 13K. I have /G GPS.
 
Dean V said:
You do realize that takeoff minimums for a south departure on runway 18 are NA due to terrain? Not exactly what I would reccomend for your first IFR flight in IMC.
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I'm thinking more along the lines of perhaps a 3K to 5K ceiling of 2K to 4K thick to punch through... So, departing in VMC conditions, but then punching through some IMC along the airway to VMC on top. Or even VMC conditions, but flying IFR.
 
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No radar contact + terrain + IMC = use the SID. You can file for whatever you want, but you won't get it.
 
Dean V said:
You do realize that takeoff minimums for a south departure on runway 18 are NA due to terrain? Not exactly what I would reccomend for your first IFR flight.
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Yes, I understand that 18 is not authorized for the angil 1 departure. If I could not see that terrain in that direction, I would not depart that direction in any case.

I also understand that one does not have to accept the published SID. Since this is the only one published, and it goes opposite of the intended route, I am trying to determine if there is another way to head South before going so far North first.

I did this filed IFR several months ago on my cross country training and we did not do the SID. My bad for not understanding how we avoided the SID. Maybe it was OK because it was VMC conditions while I was under the hood...
 
What if the ceiling at the time of departure was say 8K, or 11K MSL, and visibility is 50 miles+. The bottom of the layer would be just above the peaks. Would you consider departing VFR climb to establish comms, and then get an IFR clearance to climb through to on top? Or, could you get a clearance to do that prior to departure? Or would you still depart on the SID?
 
Unless I had visual conditions above all the terrain that will be a factor I wouldn't. That (OBSTACLE) on the DP is there for a reason. Unless you can see the terrain, you'd be advised to use the procedure. I'm not "climbing through" if terrain is a factor. Once I'm on top, I frequently may cut the corner if I can see the operative terrain sticking up and know I am going to avoid it.
 
skidoo said:
I'm looking to depart 8S1 IFR to the South. This has one SID departure procedure to the North. The valley is about 3K and the MEA is 13K for the airway due to terrain to the East. I go this way VFR no problem and know where the terrain is. This will be my first time IFR on my own. I went this way once during training and we did not do the SID. Typically, going South, I can't reach Center until about 10K msl.

So, I am wondering what to expect for climbing along the airway V231 since I won't reach the MEA until the end of the MEA segment heading South.

Will ATC allow me to depart IFR to the South to Join V231? I likely won't be able to talk to them after departing until reaching 10K to 13K. I have /G GPS.
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If you file something that can be issued IAW Order JO 7110.65 ATC should clear you as filed. You should file the ANGIL1 departure.
 
Normally, a clearance is not required to fly an ODP, but if an ODP is included as part of your clearance, then the pilot is required to fly the ODP. Otherwise, the use of an ODP is smart, but the part 91 pilot is not required to use one.

In order to obtain a clearance to use the RNAV ODP, you need to file an ICAO flightplan, specify G and Z in field 10 and NAV/RNVD1 in field 18. However, since you are not required to obtain a clearance to fly the RNAV ODP, this may not be needed.

However, your GPS must be approved for use of RNAV 1 ODP departure procedures according to AC 90-100A and its associated spreadsheet. GNS430/530/430W/530W and GTN series and G1000 systems are approved. Most other IFR GPS units are not.

If you can depart in VFR conditions that permit you to see and avoid visually all obstacles while you climb to the MEA, then you may depart visually. Below the MEA along a route, or below the radar MVA and receiving radar vectoring, or any MIA, you are responsible for obstacle avoidance. With the latest NOTAM on the topic, you are no longer required to be within the service volume of a ground based navigation aid to obtain a clearance if you have filed /G.
 
Z06_Mir said:
No radar contact + terrain + IMC = use the SID. You can file for whatever you want, but you won't get it.
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In this case, there isn't a SID, there is a RNAV ODP. The RNAV ODP is optional for a part 91 aircraft unless the clearance includes it. Even though the aircraft is /G, it may or may not be approved to fly this ODP.
 
First of all, the ANGIL ONE is not a SID -- it's a graphical ODP. That means the FAA has surveyed the area, and a "standard" departure/climb will not achieve required obstruction clearance. IOW, it's not there just to make it easier for ATC to issue your clearance the was SID's are. Failure to follow it means you have no guarantee of obstruction clearance on your climb from he airport to the MEA, and failure to follow the published graphical ODP is how the USAF slammed a C-130 into the side of a big mountain at Jackson Hole about 20 years ago.

In any event, ATC can still make the ANGIL ONE part of your clearance, in which case compliance is mandatory as a condition of your IFR clearance. If they do not include it in your clearance, then as a Part 91 flyer, you do have the option of working out your own means to maintain obstruction clearance from the runway up to the MEA, but that can be tricky in mountainous terrain, as that C-130 crew found out just before they all died.

So, to my thinking, if you can't follow that ODP, you probably don't want to take off from there IFR unless you can climb visually to the MEA.
 
I wonder why this field is so restrictive. The terrain to the south is 14 or 15 miles away and tops out only 2100 feet above the field. That seems a pretty gentle slope, less than 3 degrees anyway.

Why would there be no departure to the south and an MDA for 36 1,400' AGL?

Think the wildlife refuge plays into it?
 
Ron Levy said:
I should add that I checked the procedures, and in addition to the ANGIL ONE, you can depart on 36 using a "standard" departure (climb runway heading to 400 above the departure end and then turn in any direction) as long as you maintain 270 ft/nm up to 8400 feet, and then the standard 200 ft/nm from 8400 up to the MEA. That will allow a southbound departure down the airway as long as you take off on 36, climb to 400, and then turn south while maintaining that climb gradient.
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Thanks. That is great input... My mistake on referencing it as a SID. That is what the I-Pad button showed and I automatically referred it to that...

Ron Levy said:
As for departing to the south, that "precipitous terrain" phrase in the Takeoff Minimums write-up is enough to convince me not to try an IFR departure off 18 unless I can get turned around and headed north visually while remaining overhead the airport, and then once a couple of miles north, turning back south while maintaining that 270 ft/nm gradient.
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The thing about the South terrain is that it is not that high, but relatively close. If the ceilings are so low that the terrain can not be seen, then it is too low to come back in on any approach. Here is a photo of the terrain looking South
 

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Captain said:
I wonder why this field is so restrictive. The terrain to the south is 14 or 15 miles away and tops out only 2100 feet above the field. That seems a pretty gentle slope, less than 3 degrees anyway.

Why would there be no departure to the south and an MDA for 36 1,400' AGL?

Think the wildlife refuge plays into it?
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The airway runs essentially over this highway...
 

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skidoo said:
I'm looking to depart 8S1 IFR to the South. This has one SID departure procedure to the North. The valley is about 3K and the MEA is 13K for the airway due to terrain to the East. I go this way VFR no problem and know where the terrain is. This will be my first time IFR on my own. I went this way once during training and we did not do the SID. Typically, going South, I can't reach Center until about 10K msl.

So, I am wondering what to expect for climbing along the airway V231 since I won't reach the MEA until the end of the MEA segment heading South.

Will ATC allow me to depart IFR to the South to Join V231? I likely won't be able to talk to them after departing until reaching 10K to 13K. I have /G GPS.
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Conceptually, it is important to understand it is not a SID. It is a graphical ODP. All RNAV ODPs must be graphical.
 
Whats the performance of your plane? Can you make the minimum climb gradient for the departure? IF so, go for it. A lot of the times atc will clear you for a SID, but then while flying it they will vector you out of the terminal area into the airway.
 
Ya know...another option would to request a VFR climb when you get the clearance. If approved take off 18 and climb however you like to the assigned altitude. Of course you need to stay VFR, but you're in the system. KSUN does this all the time.
 
You can depart VFR, but if you must depart IFR because of weather conditions, I am afraid you are stuck with flying the obstacle departure procedure.

From my reading of the controllers manual, ATP7110.65U section 4-3-2, c. Departure Procedures, Para 1 and sub para (b) and Para 2

c. Departure Procedures.
1. Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial
heading/azimuth to be flown after takeoff as follows:
(a) Locations with Airport Traffic Control
Service− Specify these items as necessary.
(b) Locations without Airport Traffic Control
Service, but within a Class E surface area− specify
these items if necessary. Obtain/solicit the pilot’s
concurrence concerning these items before issuing
them in a clearance.
2. Where only textually described obstacle
departure procedures (ODP) have been published for
a location and pilot compliance is necessary to ensure
separation, include the procedure as part of the ATC
clearance.
EXAMPLE−
“Depart via the (airport name) (runway number)
departure procedure.”
NOTE−
IFR takeoff minimums and departure procedures are
prescribed for specific airports/runways and published in
a tabular form supplement to the FAA instrument approach
procedure chart and appropriate FAA Form 8260. These
procedures are identified on instrument approach
procedure charts with a symbol:

  • To put it all together, the airport is in Class E airspace and the floor of the airspace is the surface.
  • Clearance issued by controller must provide for separation from terrain (obstacle clearance) and from other IFR aircraft.
  • Airport is designated as requiring the use of an ODP
  • Because there is only one ODP, which is for a North departure only, the only legal clearance the controller can issue is to specify direction of takeoff, in this case North, and to assign the ODP as part of the IFR clearance.

Remember that an ODP is different from a SID. A SID does provide obstacle clearance, but its primary purpose is the efficient (from ATC’s point of view) flow of traffic. You can decline a SID and still receive an IFR clearance.
 
mcheathe said:
You can depart VFR, but if you must depart IFR because of weather conditions, I am afraid you are stuck with flying the obstacle departure procedure.

From my reading of the controllers manual, ATP7110.65U section 4-3-2, c. Departure Procedures, Para 1 and sub para (b) and Para 2

c. Departure Procedures.
1. Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial
heading/azimuth to be flown after takeoff as follows:
(a) Locations with Airport Traffic Control
Service− Specify these items as necessary.
(b) Locations without Airport Traffic Control
Service, but within a Class E surface area− specify
these items if necessary. Obtain/solicit the pilot’s
concurrence concerning these items before issuing
them in a clearance.
2. Where only textually described obstacle
departure procedures (ODP) have been published for
a location and pilot compliance is necessary to ensure
separation, include the procedure as part of the ATC
clearance.
EXAMPLE−
“Depart via the (airport name) (runway number)
departure procedure.”
NOTE−
IFR takeoff minimums and departure procedures are
prescribed for specific airports/runways and published in
a tabular form supplement to the FAA instrument approach
procedure chart and appropriate FAA Form 8260. These
procedures are identified on instrument approach
procedure charts with a symbol:

  • To put it all together, the airport is in Class E airspace and the floor of the airspace is the surface.
  • Clearance issued by controller must provide for separation from terrain (obstacle clearance) and from other IFR aircraft.
  • Airport is designated as requiring the use of an ODP
  • Because there is only one ODP, which is for a North departure only, the only legal clearance the controller can issue is to specify direction of takeoff, in this case North, and to assign the ODP as part of the IFR clearance.
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Direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading/azimuth to be flown after takeoff are specified if necessary for separation from other aircraft. If there is no other traffic there's no need to specify them.

Remember that an ODP is different from a SID. A SID does provide obstacle clearance, but its primary purpose is the efficient (from ATC’s point of view) flow of traffic. You can decline a SID and still receive an IFR clearance.
Click to expand...

Sure, you can decline a SID and still receive an IFR clearance. The IFR clearance will likely include the SID in detail.
 
OP here. Yesterday, I actually made the flight. At the departure time, there was a layer just above the highest peaks (estimated at 11K). I filed from 8S1 to my destination via several airways.

So, I thought about the VFR climb and requested that. The clearance came cleared for a VFR climb to 17K. So, I told him about the layer at 11K and probably couldn't make VFR all the way to 17K. So, I canceled the VFR climb request. The clearance came back cleared as filed to FL190, and no mention of the ODP.

I departed on 36 and then headed south climbing on V231. I actually made radar contact near 7500 ft. I went through a thin layer beginning near 10-11K. It only lasted for two minutes or so and we were on top. WOW, that was nice! Continuing to climb, as I passed through 14K, ATC told me that I was passing through 14K and was cleared direct to my destination. I was a little confused because I had filed along the airways. So, I asked for clarification. ATC said it was my choice if I wanted to go direct or continue along the airways. Nice! Everything looked good and the direct route was good at that point, so I chose to finish going direct.

That was Awesome at 19K and there was quite a variety of broken and scattered cloud types along the way (below me!). First time in class A! Smooth as glass!
 
Ron Levy said:
I should add that I checked the procedures, and in addition to the ANGIL ONE, you can depart on 36 using a "standard" departure (climb runway heading to 400 above the departure end and then turn in any direction) as long as you maintain 270 ft/nm up to 8400 feet, and then the standard 200 ft/nm from 8400 up to the MEA. That will allow a southbound departure down the airway as long as you take off on 36, climb to 400, and then turn south while maintaining that climb gradient.
Click to expand...

I'd hit the mountains east of the airport doing that (presuming I elected to head in that direction leaving 400 feet, agl, at 270 ft/mile to 8400). The one peak I checked requires over 500 feet per mile.
 
skidoo said:
OP here. Yesterday, I actually made the flight. At the departure time, there was a layer just above the highest peaks (estimated at 11K). I filed from 8S1 to my destination via several airways.

So, I thought about the VFR climb and requested that. The clearance came cleared for a VFR climb to 17K. So, I told him about the layer at 11K and probably couldn't make VFR all the way to 17K. So, I canceled the VFR climb request. The clearance came back cleared as filed to FL190, and no mention of the ODP.

I departed on 36 and then headed south climbing on V231. I actually made radar contact near 7500 ft. I went through a thin layer beginning near 10-11K. It only lasted for two minutes or so and we were on top. WOW, that was nice! Continuing to climb, as I passed through 14K, ATC told me that I was passing through 14K and was cleared direct to my destination. I was a little confused because I had filed along the airways. So, I asked for clarification. ATC said it was my choice if I wanted to go direct or continue along the airways. Nice! Everything looked good and the direct route was good at that point, so I chose to finish going direct.

That was Awesome at 19K and there was quite a variety of broken and scattered cloud types along the way (below me!). First time in class A! Smooth as glass!
Click to expand...

So, I'm confused. Did you fly the ODP or not?
 
By the way, if the wind were favoring a runway 18 takeoff, one option, weather permitting and assuming you have the required climb gradient, would be to turn north under the ceiling, overfly the runway, and join the ODP. Since there is no tower, you wouldn't even have to negotiate with ATC about it.
 
skidoo said:
I did not... Just went out from r/w 36 to 1500 ft AGL and then turned south on V231.
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If you had not had the tops of the terrain in sight, would you have flown the ODP?
 
Palmpilot said:
If you had not had the tops of the terrain in sight, would you have flown the ODP?
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That is a good question and one I struggle with myself.

The valley is fairly flat for about 25 miles south. Terrain after that in the south direction can be cleared above 6K MSL for another 10 miles. If I couldn't be above 12K MSL in 30 miles, then it certainly makes sense to use it. But, I know the terrain, and I can normally be above the highest peak if I went directly towards it. Actually after departure, the clouds did appear to move lower probably obscuring the top 500 to 1K feet. They do seem to change fast. I was not concerned because I was not heading toward them and even if I were, I would be above by the time I got there.

If the clouds were half way down, that would be something like a 3-4K ft ceiling. I could still easily set up the navigation and confirm visually before continuing through a layer. So, if I could tell that the layer was relatively thin, maybe blue sky peaking through thin parts, I would skip the ODP if given the choice.

If the layer were thick, hard IMC, ceiling down to 1K or lower, then the ODP may make sense. Except for me. In that case, I probably would not go at all because that would be more likely for icing conditions...
 
skidoo said:
OP here. Yesterday, I actually made the flight. At the departure time, there was a layer just above the highest peaks (estimated at 11K). I filed from 8S1 to my destination via several airways.

So, I thought about the VFR climb and requested that. The clearance came cleared for a VFR climb to 17K. So, I told him about the layer at 11K and probably couldn't make VFR all the way to 17K. So, I canceled the VFR climb request. The clearance came back cleared as filed to FL190, and no mention of the ODP.

I departed on 36 and then headed south climbing on V231. I actually made radar contact near 7500 ft. I went through a thin layer beginning near 10-11K. It only lasted for two minutes or so and we were on top. WOW, that was nice! Continuing to climb, as I passed through 14K, ATC told me that I was passing through 14K and was cleared direct to my destination. I was a little confused because I had filed along the airways. So, I asked for clarification. ATC said it was my choice if I wanted to go direct or continue along the airways. Nice! Everything looked good and the direct route was good at that point, so I chose to finish going direct.

That was Awesome at 19K and there was quite a variety of broken and scattered cloud types along the way (below me!). First time in class A! Smooth as glass!
Click to expand...


You could have still gone with the VFR climb. Just because you're cleared VFR to 17K doesn't mean you have to go to 17K. You're VFR, remember?

So take the clearance as given, climb to VFR altitude below the layer and don't hit the mountain with it's top in the layer. Stay out of restricted airspace and TFRs and go on your way talking to ATC. Eventually one of them will have you radar contact with proper separation and be able to give you the IFR clearance into the soup.
 
aterpster said:
I'd hit the mountains east of the airport doing that (presuming I elected to head in that direction leaving 400 feet, agl, at 270 ft/mile to 8400). The one peak I checked requires over 500 feet per mile.
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:doh: You're right -- per the takeoff minimums you still have to follow the ANGIL ONE while making that climb gradient.
 
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Ron Levy said:
:doh: You're right -- per the takeoff minimums you still have to follow the ANGIL ONE while making that climb gradient.
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After you hit the mountain I will testify that the takeoff minimums are are screwed up. Those climb gradients should not appear other than on the RNAV ODP.

This was not one of their sterling efforts.

But, your observation is well taken. So, the question the wary pilot must ask, "Does a diverse departure make sense at this airport?"
 
Since the OP knows the terrain well and others may not...suppose the situation was as bold below and it was someone else: Does there exist certified equipment that could provide primary information for terrain clearance and is installable in a light single?

skidoo said:
That is a good question and one I struggle with myself.

The valley is fairly flat for about 25 miles south. Terrain after that in the south direction can be cleared above 6K MSL for another 10 miles. If I couldn't be above 12K MSL in 30 miles, then it certainly makes sense to use it. But, I know the terrain, and I can normally be above the highest peak if I went directly towards it. Actually after departure, the clouds did appear to move lower probably obscuring the top 500 to 1K feet. They do seem to change fast. I was not concerned because I was not heading toward them and even if I were, I would be above by the time I got there.

If the clouds were half way down, that would be something like a 3-4K ft ceiling. I could still easily set up the navigation and confirm visually before continuing through a layer. So, if I could tell that the layer was relatively thin, maybe blue sky peaking through thin parts, I would skip the ODP if given the choice.

If the layer were thick, hard IMC, ceiling down to 1K or lower, then the ODP may make sense. Except for me. In that case, I probably would not go at all because that would be more likely for icing conditions...
Click to expand...
 
If the clouds were half way down, that would be something like a 3-4K ft ceiling. I could still easily set up the navigation and confirm visually before continuing through a layer. So, if I could tell that the layer was relatively thin, maybe blue sky peaking through thin parts, I would skip the ODP if given the choice.
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When I see patches of blue above, the cloud layer sometimes turns out to be a lot thicker than it looks. I would follow the ODP in that situation, and if I broke out on top before completing the ODP, then I could visually evaluate the wisdom of turning on course.
 
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Jaybird180 said:
Since the OP knows the terrain well and others may not...suppose the situation was as bold below and it was someone else: Does there exist certified equipment that could provide primary information for terrain clearance and is installable in a light single?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but my certified G1000 with SVT will tell me pretty far out if I'm below terrain. The PFD will show terrain above the horizon line. If the flight path marker is above this terrain, I will clear it even if the terrain is above the horizon line. I can see all this on the PFD. What it will not tell me is whether or not I can keep the flight path marker above the terrain given the plane's performance (as in can I maintain the climb I'm now in) nor will it tell me by how much I'm going to clear the terrain. Once the terrain changes colors on the MFD of if I have a terrain inset set up on the PFD, I know I will clear it by at least 1,000 feet. On the PFD with synthetic vision, once that terrain turns yellow or red in the main portion of the AI, you have a very very serious problem that few people will recover from.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Since the OP knows the terrain well and others may not...suppose the situation was as bold below and it was someone else: Does there exist certified equipment that could provide primary information for terrain clearance and is installable in a light single?
Click to expand...

A single VOR receiver would fit the bill.
 
pericynthion said:
A single VOR receiver would fit the bill.
Click to expand...

Could you help me understand how a VOR receiver provides terrain clearance absence a procedure that has been evaluated for obstacle clearance laterally and vertically and has been verified for adequate VOR reception?
 
Issued today:

FDC 3/9536 - FI/T ODP POLSON, POLSON, MT.
TAKEOFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURES ORIG...
TAKEOFF MINIMUMS: RWY 18, NA - OBSTACLES.
RWY 36, USE ANGIL DEPARTURE.
ALL OTHER DATA REMAINS AS PUBLISHED. WIE UNTIL UFN. CREATED: 04 APR 13:41 2013


Issued a few weeks ago:




FDC 3/0047 - FI/T ODP POLSON, POLSON, MT, ANGIL ONE DEPARTURE
(RNAV): TAKEOFF MINIMUMS: RWY 18, NA - OBSTACLES.RWY 36, STANDARD WITH MINIMUM CLIMB OF 300 FT PER NM TO 8400.REST OF PROCEDURE REMAINS AS PUBLISHED. WIE UNTIL UFN. CREATED: 23 FEB 13:192013
 
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