IFR Clearences

EminiTrader said:
I have a technique that I use all the time [to avoid rushing to make a void time at an uncontrolled airport].


And the technique is this.
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I do something similar but with a variation. I make only one call from my cell phone - after engine start but before run-up. Since I know the engine has started, I can give them a reliable estimate of how much time I need for a warm-up and nice leisurely run-up and system check and can get the full clearance including void time in one shot.
 
midlifeflyer said:
[*]You can always get it by calling the national CD number. You can also get it by calling FSS on the phone (although the national number is generally better since that's all they do; and the FAA might suggest you call them or someone esle).
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The national CD number and FSS are the same people. It's just that the CD number bypasses the queue for a regular briefer. Sort of like the 10 items or less line at the grocery.
 
I got my first "uncontrolled field" clearance last December. I did what Mark did to get it. Out of a field in Georgia, I went through FSS and they connected me to the right folks and relayed the clearance.

However, on my trip back from North Carolina, I tried doing that again and the FSS briefer just gave me a number saying that approach asked me to call them directly, which I did. Got my clearance, release and void time, was off in less than a couple minutes after I took my time to do a run up and relax a bit.
 
Caramon13 said:
I got my first "uncontrolled field" clearance last December. I did what Mark did to get it. Out of a field in Georgia, I went through FSS and they connected me to the right folks and relayed the clearance.

However, on my trip back from North Carolina, I tried doing that again and the FSS briefer just gave me a number saying that approach asked me to call them directly, which I did. Got my clearance, release and void time, was off in less than a couple minutes after I took my time to do a run up and relax a bit.
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That is great when you have it. We have that at my home field as well.

The one I talked about in the asterisk was especially interesting. I called Center on the radio and the part of my void time clearance when they give the frequency was... "Contact Kansas City Center on... oh.. um... on the same frequency you are talking to me on now."

One might wonder at the need for a void time when you are already in easy radio contact with the departure frequency. I guess it is in contemplation that you will be going back to the CTAF for the takeoff and since CTAF is not ATC, there is a break in the chain of communication. I always wondered what would happen if "I said, I don't need to go to CTAF; how about I just stay on with you."
 
midlifeflyer said:
I always wondered what would happen if "I said, I don't need to go to CTAF; how about I just stay on with you."
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They really don't care if you go back to CTAF, they're just expecting you to be airborne by the void time. Airspace has been reserved for you IF you depart by void time. What if you abort before void time? They haven't radar identified you yet so if the void time expires and you're still on the ground, they can clear someone else for an approach into that airport or release another departure if they haven't heard from you. There such a thing as a thru clearance but that's another animal.
 
mscard88 said:
Agree with this 100%! Get with your CFI or one that can explain it. AIM explains it well as should your study materials.
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Call it wrong. But I didn't know how to pick up a clearance from an uncontrolled field until the day after I got my IR and found myself sitting in the runup area needing to takeoff IFR but there wasn't a controller to give it to me. I decided to call the flight service station and they gave me my clearance.

Out of Half Moon Bay airport I call up Nor Cal Tracon. Sometimes out in the boonies I get my clearance from the frequency under approach on that airports approach plate or a plate from a local airport with an approach.

The default way is to call the FSS, but there are a large variety of ways to pick up a clearance. If you can't figure it out, just keep calling people until someone gives you what you want
 
mscard88 said:
They really don't care if you go back to CTAF, they're just expecting you to be airborne by the void time. Airspace has been reserved for you IF you depart by void time. What if you abort before void time? They haven't radar identified you yet so if the void time expires and you're still on the ground, they can clear someone else for an approach into that airport or release another departure if they haven't heard from you. There such a thing as a thru clearance but that's another animal.
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Radar identification has nothing to do with it. If they don't hear from you, they assume you took off before the void time. It's incumbent on you to stay on the ground if you are past the void time.
 
mscard88 said:
They really don't care if you go back to CTAF, they're just expecting you to be airborne by the void time. Airspace has been reserved for you IF you depart by void time. What if you abort before void time? They haven't radar identified you yet so if the void time expires and you're still on the ground, they can clear someone else for an approach into that airport or release another departure if they haven't heard from you. There such a thing as a thru clearance but that's another animal.
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I think you misunderstood my question.

At a towered airport you don't get a void time because (among other things) you are in constant radio contact with ATC. They can tell you "go" or "wait." I'm positing a scenario in which I am in constant radio contact with ATC, but at a non-towered airport. "Not going back to CTAF" just means the continuity of my radio contact is not broken.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
Call it wrong. But I didn't know how to pick up a clearance from an uncontrolled field until the day after I got my IR and found myself sitting in the runup area needing to takeoff IFR but there wasn't a controller to give it to me.
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Just one of those training failures that can happen when training at a towered airport, although one would hope that, if nothing else, the dual xc would include at least one stop at a non-towered airport involving picking up a new clearance.

The opposite can happen also. I think except for my dual xc, I don't think I picked up a clearance from a towered airport until after I got my IR. But it was definitely included in my training.
 
Even at fields where I am in contact with approach on the ground, the IFR release (they can't really clear you for takeoff) has a void time.

A towered field (even if they are not the one that can authorized the release) has eyes on your departure and can inform the rest of the system if you left or not.

Neither RADIO COMMUNICATIONS (with the pilot) nor RADAR CONTACT has anything at all to do with this. It's a matter of what information ATC has. If they can tell if you depart, you don't need a void time. If they can't tell if you are departing, you get a void time and the assumption is that you either departed by the void time or stayed on the ground.
 
flyingron said:
Even at fields where I am in contact with approach on the ground, the IFR release (they can't really clear you for takeoff) has a void time.

A towered field (even if they are not the one that can authorized the release) has eyes on your departure and can inform the rest of the system if you left or not.

Neither RADIO COMMUNICATIONS (with the pilot) nor RADAR CONTACT has anything at all to do with this. It's a matter of what information ATC has. If they can tell if you depart, you don't need a void time. If they can't tell if you are departing, you get a void time and the assumption is that you either departed by the void time or stayed on the ground.
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I don't understand that at all.

Are you saying that if I am in radio contact with TRACON on the ground and they say, "you can take off now," and I say, "rolling" they don't have information on my departure?

So, if the field is LIFR and the Tower can't actually see me on that distant runway, they issue void time clearances?

I don't think that's a definitive answe to my wondering.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Are you saying that if I am in radio contact with TRACON on the ground and they say, "you can take off now," and I say, "rolling" they don't have information on my departure?
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If you are at uncontrolled field, they MUST give you a void time on that release.
Believe me, this happens every time at my field where they've issued me a "hold for release" clearance and told me to call when #1. I tell them I'm standing at the hold short line ready to go and they still give me a void time.

Once you do establish communications (as short as you can imagine after commencing takeoff), they know that you are off. However, absent that, they assume you left before the void time or stayed on the ground.


I don't think that's a definitive answe to my wondering.
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Believe what you want, but that IS the reason. The system is predicated that if you depart from a towered field, ATC knows you left without you having to tell them. If you depart from a non-towered field, they have to make a contingency for not knowing.
 
flyingron said:
If you are at uncontrolled field, they MUST give you a void time on that release.
Believe me, this happens every time at my field where they've issued me a "hold for release" clearance and told me to call when #1. I tell them I'm standing at the hold short line ready to go and they still give me a void time.

Once you do establish communications (as short as you can imagine after commencing takeoff), they know that you are off. However, absent that, they assume you left before the void time or stayed on the ground.

Believe what you want, but that IS the reason. The system is predicated that if you depart from a towered field, ATC knows you left without you having to tell them. If you depart from a non-towered field, they have to make a contingency for not knowing.
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Maybe they're supposed to but I have had occasions when they do not. I even quizzed them about it once. I forget what the answer was but I didn't care enough to take it further.
 
Currently working on my IR, fly out of an uncontrolled (and very small) field. After several lessons, we started filing a flight plan fairly often so I get a lot of practice getting clearances. If it's actual IMC my instructor usually has me call Charlotte on the phone once we are ready to roll to pick up our clearance on the ground. If we are filing and it's VMC, we just call approach when we get in the air and pick up a clearance that way.
 
flyingron said:
If you are at uncontrolled field, they MUST give you a void time on that release.
Believe me, this happens every time at my field where they've issued me a "hold for release" clearance and told me to call when #1. I tell them I'm standing at the hold short line ready to go and they still give me a void time.

Once you do establish communications (as short as you can imagine after commencing takeoff), they know that you are off. However, absent that, they assume you left before the void time or stayed on the ground.

Believe what you want, but that IS the reason. The system is predicated that if you depart from a towered field, ATC knows you left without you having to tell them. If you depart from a non-towered field, they have to make a contingency for not knowing.
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It may well be true that they MUST give you a void time clearance and the rule is the rule is the rule (I haven't been able to find one that doesn't use the word "may", but that could be I'm not searching correctly). I certainly can accept that.

But you apparently see a practical distinction between
establishing radio communication with ATC before takeoff and continuing to maintain them​
and
establishing radio communication with ATC before takeoff and continuing to maintain them​
that I don't.
 
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flyingron said:
If you are at uncontrolled field, they MUST give you a void time on that release.
Believe me, this happens every time at my field where they've issued me a "hold for release" clearance and told me to call when #1. I tell them I'm standing at the hold short line ready to go and they still give me a void time.

Once you do establish communications (as short as you can imagine after commencing takeoff), they know that you are off. However, absent that, they assume you left before the void time or stayed on the ground.




Believe what you want, but that IS the reason. The system is predicated that if you depart from a towered field, ATC knows you left without you having to tell them. If you depart from a non-towered field, they have to make a contingency for not knowing.
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That is the reason. The controllers requirement to issue void times is not absolute, the rule reads "when necessary to separate departures from other traffic..." Any controller who thinks it's not necessary when there is no way to know if and when the airplane actually departed, which is almost always the case at uncontrolled airports, should probably have his thinking realigned. The other requirement for departures from uncontrolled airports is that the pilot must be told to advise ATC within 30 minutes of the void time with their intentions if they didn't get off. Without that, the airspace along the route of flight into which the aircraft was cleared is blocked until it is found. If you get a release from an uncontrolled airport without a void time the controller just might have blew it. I wouldn't recommend saying "he didn't give me a void time and I gotta take a leak, think I'll shut down, hop out and take a leak before I go. I suppose void times might not given sometimes because there is a Letter of Agreement between ATC and an on airport Flight Service Station or Licensed UNICOM to report the departure but I doubt it.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Just one of those training failures that can happen when training at a towered airport, although one would hope that, if nothing else, the dual xc would include at least one stop at a non-towered airport involving picking up a new clearance.

The opposite can happen also. I think except for my dual xc, I don't think I picked up a clearance from a towered airport until after I got my IR. But it was definitely included in my training.
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This also happens when your CFI has little real world experience.
 
alfadog said:
Yes, I was unclear. I meant that you actually have to call clearance delivery. At KFXE, everytime I have flown out of KFXE, I have to call CD. At KTMB, where I am based, often it is "ground and clearance delivery combined on 121.7" but on occasion they do have the separate CD running. When they are combined, I would dial up 121.7 but still ask for Tamiami clearance delivery, not Tamiami ground.
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That's interesting Alfadog. At CRQ, I havent heard them "combine" the frequency that way. Everyone just dials in 121.8 and asks "palomar ground" for their IFR clearance.

They do have a published frequency for clearance delivery (134.85) and I assume they monitor it but in practice it is rarely used, though now that I think about it, if I had to guess its probably not staffed at Palomar so its probably used frequently after hours.

Obviously we are talking IFR and requiring a clearance for IFR and I imagine if I was asking for an IFR clearance on ground at KSAT or KBUR, I would have been directed to CD but my point was more that it seems every airport, like every control center and controller, has its own little quirks and way of doing things and that some controllers are more friendly than others.

It's like landing at a tower controlled field and then having tower instruct you to taxi with them; sometimes it just happens.
 
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The multiple frequencies at a towered airport is a matter of division of workload. In theory a very quiet Class D wouldn't even need a separate Ground, although if that was consistent, I guess there wouldn't be a tower.

The division of Ground into Ground and CD is like that. Many towered airports don't even have one listed, although that is becoming less common. It's also true of ATIS. Haven't been to one in years but I recall landing at a few Towered airports with no ATIS.

Combining frequencies at non-busy times is pretty common, usually with ATIS announcing, "All services on 1xx.x"

The funniest one I have come across was at the Colorado Springs Class C. We had an evening Angel Flight meeting and all headed home at the same time. A single controller was working CD, Ground, Tower and Approach/Departure, but there was no announcement and folks were calling him at the same time using different frequencies.
 
apr911 said:
That's interesting Alfadog. At CRQ, I havent heard them "combine" the frequency that way. Everyone just dials in 121.8 and asks "palomar ground" for their IFR clearance.

They do have a published frequency for clearance delivery (134.85) and I assume they monitor it but in practice it is rarely used, though now that I think about it, if I had to guess its probably not staffed at Palomar so its probably used frequently after hours.

Obviously we are talking IFR and requiring a clearance for IFR and I imagine if I was asking for an IFR clearance on ground at KSAT or KBUR, I would have been directed to CD but my point was more that it seems every airport, like every control center and controller, has its own little quirks and way of doing things and that some controllers are more friendly than others.

It's like landing at a tower controlled field and then having tower instruct you to taxi with them; sometimes it just happens.
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Does the ATIS say contact ground for clearance, by chance?
 
During the day, nothing on the ATIS says contact ground for clearance. I guess maybe if things were really busy and they opened the CD frequency to separate the traffic it might say to contact CD but Ive never seen it.

I dont fly that often after the tower closes so its been awhile since I've gotten an after hours report so it might tell you to contact CD.
 
Aren't there three ways of getting of opening an IFR flight plan at an uncontrolled field:
1. Hold for release (have to have radio communications on the field)
2. Clearance void time (when there are no radio comms)
3. Pick up your IFR clearance in the air.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Aren't there three ways of getting of opening an IFR flight plan at an uncontrolled field:
1. Hold for release (have to have radio communications on the field)
2. Clearance void time (when there are no radio comms)
3. Pick up your IFR clearance in the air.
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"Hold for release" is just a way of saying, "we can't fit you in right now, wait for further instructions" It applies just as much to towered airports as non-towered ones, with the difference being that an a non-towered field, once you are released it will be with a void time.

I wouldn't consider it a separate method of getting a clearance, just a part of the overall process, no mater how you get it.
 
alfadog said:
All clearances from an uncontrolled airport are going to have a void by time, aren't they?
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It's a good thing to practice calling to get void times - as well as calling in the air for pop-up. Different workload for both, especially if you get a long clearance that wasn't expected. You may not get a pop-up, and should be prepared for that. But file IFR often to get in the groove.

I'm low-time IR, and often make a point to ask for block altitude clearances so I can get into the clouds for practice.
 
flyingron said:
Even at fields where I am in contact with approach on the ground, the IFR release (they can't really clear you for takeoff) has a void time.
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I know there was a lot of argument about this statement and Im not really sure why... It makes perfect sense why they would still issue you a void time.

As Flyingron said, they cant clear you for takeoff and just because you're calling them when you're number 1 doesnt mean you'll still be number 1 when they release you.

Maybe they delay you for a few minutes while you hold and someone in the pattern comes in to land or maybe the plane who left before you is doing pattern work so now you need to wait for him to clear the runway/takeoff again or the plane next to you in the run up area is VFR and is ready to depart without delay.

For that matter, what happens if you blow a tire, have an engine failure, fire or other power issue or any other of the 1,000 and 1 reasons that you might abort your immediate departure.

Any of these could delay your departure despite currently being #1 and ATC would be foolish to issue you a release that requires "immediate" takeoff without to accounting for a delay for landing/departing traffic or other issue that crops up but since they're not tower and cant clear you for take off and thus wont know when you actually take off, they also cant just leave it as an open ended clearance.

The release is them making a hole for you in the airspace/airtraffic flow. They cant keep that hole open indefinitely, just like requesting sequencing into a Bravo or busy Charlie airport they expect you to land in sequence; they're not going to open a 10 minute hole for you as they've already had to delay arrivals to accommodate you puttering along at 100KTAS compared to the faster commercial traffic that cant go below 150KTAS.
 
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