IFR at night in single engine airplane?

saracelica

saracelica

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saracelica
So I just got done reading "Alligators, Freight Trains & Near Flying Disasters: How To Fly An Airplane Backwards, And How To Lose Over 18 Engines And Live To Retire Or Mayday, Mayday, Mayday" Written by a retired airline captain pilot. Pretty good stories from back in the 60's (he evidentally flew where I used to live - Pittsburgh, long before my time!)

Anywho the last chapter (and on the back of the book) he urges pilots not to fly at night in a single engine airplane in IMC. I asked my CFII and he says he may have flown in hard IMC once or twice at night and lived to tell about it (obviously) but what say you?
 
I have done it twice since getting my IFR about 10 months ago. I found it fun.

I have read that some feel no one should fly a single engine piston at night at all.

Flying at night is statistically more dangerous, but flying is statistically more dangerous than walking, and walking is statistically more dangerous than sitting but that does not prevent from getting off my fat ass.
 
saracelica said:
Anywho the last chapter (and on the back of the book) he urges pilots not to fly at night in a single engine airplane in IMC. I asked my CFII and he says he may have flown in hard IMC once or twice at night and lived to tell about it (obviously) but what say you?
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One question... Why would you want to do something stupid like flying a single-engine airplane at night or in IMC? It doesn't sound like you'd have a lot of options if the engine quit on you.
 
Well you could really split up both of those modes separately and ask the same question.

Should we fly single engine at night? I've done it several times and while there is a certain peacefulness to it, I prefer to stick with day time. If I was to have an off field engine failure, things could get quite interesting during an overcast moonless night. Some have said NVGs could be used in civil aviation. While the last few hundred feet NVGs would help find a landing site, at altitude you really can't make out much. You could try and minimize the risk by trying to stay within gliding distance of an airport but that isn't always possible. Unfortunately in my job I fly over mountains at night on a regular basis and there isn't anywhere to go but into the trees. Since its a single engine turbine helicopter it's a risk I consider totally acceptable.

Flying hard IMC presents the same type of problems as night. I've flown my plane on cross countries before and check AWOSs below me on the way. You cringe a bit when you hear 1 mile vis and 300 OVC. That's when you start listening closely to engine noise and any little indicator of something going wrong. Still, I choose a high enough altitude to try and glide to most airports along the way.

One other thing that gives me some reassurance is owning an aircraft and being intimately familiar with its maintenance. Nothing wrong with single engine rentals but for some reason I feel more comfortable in my own plane.
 
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Dead Stick said:
One question... Why would you want to do something stupid like flying a single-engine airplane at night or in IMC? It doesn't sound like you'd have a lot of options if the engine quit on you.
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Not much different than a 400-600' overcast. Just because someone else is willing to do something doesn't automatically make it stupid.

"Why would you want to do something stupid like fly a scary little airplane?"
 
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You either see the runway identifier lights or you don't.I prefer to fly IMC in the daylight but have done IMC at night a few times with good results.
 
Dead Stick said:
One question... Why would you want to do something stupid like flying a single-engine airplane at night or in IMC? It doesn't sound like you'd have a lot of options if the engine quit on you.
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That was the point of the author as well. Seemed a little restrictive but I'm a IR student pilot so I wasn't sure. I know I've come back home after dark on a couple of XC's but it was a beautiful clear night and had 2 other pilots on board with more experience to help if I needed.
 
I feel comfortable doing it if I am current. You need to plan what you're going to do and where you will divert to at any given point along the route, perhaps in a more detailed fashion than in the daytime/VFR. Specifically, keep airports within glide range along the route. It's relatively easy to do in the midwest. Bring stuff you can use for backup navigation. And don't go in "hard" IFR at night. Make the options available to you before you take off, and do your best to eliminate cases where you will be somewhere where there are no options.

The level of comfort is proportional to recency of experience. If I was not current, I would not make my first flight in IFR at night [immediately] after becoming current.
 
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Why is it that it's usually just the low-time guys that are willing to stick their necks out when it comes to stupid stuff like SE night and LIFR? It sure seems that once a person gets a few thousand hours in their logbooks they tend to know better.
 
Why is it that it's usually just the low-time guys that are willing to stick their necks out when it comes to stupid stuff like SE night and LIFR. It seems that once a person gets a few thousand hours in their logbooks they tend to know better.
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Do you differentiate between doing it in an area where you can glide to a field vs. someplace like the mountains or overwater?

I won't do LIFR at night.
 
Headspace said:
Do you differentiate between doing it in an area where you can glide to a field vs. someplace like the mountains or overwater?

I won't do LIFR at night.
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I do not see any difference between SE LIFR, SE night XC or extended SE overwater operations. Do you?
 
Dead Stick said:
I do not see any difference between SE LIFR, SE night XC or extended SE overwater operations. Do you?
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The biggest one that comes to mind is being able to see an airport beacon within glide range vs. not being able to.
 
Because it's neither stupid or dangerous. Collins researched this subject extensively many years ago. It's a bogus argument.

Dead Stick said:
Why is it that it's usually just the low-time guys that are willing to stick their necks out when it comes to stupid stuff like SE night and LIFR? It sure seems that once a person gets a few thousand hours in their logbooks they tend to know better.
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Dead Stick said:
Why is it that it's usually just the low-time guys that are willing to stick their necks out when it comes to stupid stuff like SE night and LIFR? It sure seems that once a person gets a few thousand hours in their logbooks they tend to know better.
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So all those night flights taken by PPL students are only being done by low hour CFI's. And what about all those flights at night done by pilots going going for their commercial?

Is flying at night more dangerous than flying during the day? Yes, but that does not mean it is not done safely every night. Why get your IFR rating if you are not going to fly in IMC conditions? I did not need it to learn to read the weather, nor determine whether IFR conditions exist, and I could have learned the increased skill set in terms of airplane control without doing IMC work. So why then get an IFR rating, which a lot of high time pilots have and use everyday?
 
douglas393 said:
So all those night flights taken by PPL students are only being done by low hour CFI's. And what about all those flights at night done by pilots going going for their commercial?

Is flying at night more dangerous than flying during the day? Yes, but that does not mean it is not done safely every night. Why get your IFR rating if you are not going to fly in IMC conditions? I did not need it to learn to read the weather, nor determine whether IFR conditions exist, and I could have learned the increased skill set in terms of airplane control without doing IMC work. So why then get an IFR rating, which a lot of high time pilots have and use everyday?
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When I fly with a student, we do more than the minimum requirements. What a CFI does with a student or haw many hours a CFI has has nothing to do what is safe or smart in day-to-day SE operations.
 
If you lose your engine, use the Montana method. Turn on your landing lights. If you don't like what you see, turn them off.
 
Lack of proficiency is deadly in any weather condition, day or night. That is what is most likely to kill a pilot on an IFR flight plan. Train for the conditions, or stay on the ground.

As far as loosing the engine, it's a calculated risk, much like flying over mountains or cities during the day. I mitigate that risk through proper maintenance, altitude, and conservative fuel planning.
 
Dead Stick said:
Why is it that it's usually just the low-time guys that are willing to stick their necks out when it comes to stupid stuff like SE night and LIFR? It sure seems that once a person gets a few thousand hours in their logbooks they tend to know better.
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Maybe I'm not capable of "knowing better" but I don't see night IMC in a single as being significantly more dangerous than daytime IMC in a single. And IMO there are several other scenarios that have a similar elevated risk WRT an engine failure such as overflying vast forests, rough terrain or swampland. In every one of those situations your chances of surviving an engine failure are reduced compared to flying in CAVU conditions during the daytime but it's also true that statistically none of them including night IMC lower the chances for a survivable outcome so much that it should be considered foolhardy. In any case fatalities due to engine failures in singles in general, let alone limited to night IMC is such a small part of the risk picture that I think one would be better off avoiding things like flying when fatigued.
 
I've done it, aint that big if a deal, airline guys tend to get their balls snipped when they start flying the FMS and multi turbines.

It also depends on your outs, are there nearby airports with approaches? Terrian? What's the bases at? How much do you trust that particular plane? Turbine or piston? GPS with terrain or syn vision? Loc w/ GS? any PAR or ASAs around? ATC coverage, temp/dew point spread, MOCA, MEA and temps?

What spookes me more then single engine night IMC, is non FIKI IMC.

Ive encountered non-forecast icing at night in IMC a few times and it ain't fun!

The plane I was flying was a very well outfitted SE with G1000, Terrian, 2 axis autopilot, etc, just no icing capabilities. Watching those lil crystisls reflect off my flashlight and not being able to legally get lower or blow the ice off puts you in a interesting spot.
 
Although I start up my IR training friday here in the mountains I can say with confidence I will not fly IFR in mountains nor at night

It will make me a better pilot and back in midwest it was very nice to fly at night vfr. Smooth and quiet. IFR, I may end a trip after dark time in familiar flat terrain but IMC in dark. probably not anytime soon in my 182.

Heck I won't even fly during afternoon here in mountains now. Flying over the mountains in the daytime was puckering enough the first time, night time IFR..not a chance. Amazing how winds can be calm at home then at dinner time they become gusty and would just make flying at that time downright dangerous.

Couple good guidelines from Mountain flying course put on by the CPA

1. No flying after 12 or 1 in afternoon (rare exceptions only)
2. Never fly IFR during night. (common sense) these mountains look a lot harder then the pastures of the midwest.
 
I fly in IMC in a single-engine all the time - occasionally at night. call me dangerous and stupid but in reality it just makes one a better pilot. (I do it without a functioning AP too - the horror!)
 
Single engine at night in the mountains and IMC? That would be a bit much for me. Although I have done mountains and IMC in a Single Engine (and I don't recommend it)
 
Dead Stick said:
When I fly with a student, we do more than the minimum requirements. What a CFI does with a student or haw many hours a CFI has has nothing to do what is safe or smart in day-to-day SE operations.
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I was just commenting on your statement:
Why is it that it's usually just the low-time guys that are willing to stick their necks out when it comes to stupid stuff like SE night and LIFR. It seems that once a person gets a few thousand hours in their logbooks they tend to know better.
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Maybe I misinterpreted it, but it seems to me that you are saying that people who know better do not fly SE night and LIFR because it is stupid to do so. So to me that begs my question. I did not comment on what you do or do not do as an instructor, just on how I interpreted your statement, which I have interpreted as saying SE night, and LIFR is stupid, and since we are talking about the safety I figured by saying stupid you meant unsafe. I certainly hope that my CFI(I) did not teach me something unsafe, and hope that the FAA is not allowing (requiring?) them to teach me something stupid.

Sorry, did not mean to insult your abilities as a CFI(I), but I would hope you would not teach something you consider stupid either.
 
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I actually prefer night to day. Less traffic, cooler, usually better weather.....

XC I fly IFR whether it's IMC or VMC (well I do that in the day too...)

I'm way more afraid of ice than dark.....
 
Dead Stick said:
One question... Why would you want to do something stupid like flying a single-engine airplane at night or in IMC? It doesn't sound like you'd have a lot of options if the engine quit on you.
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One man's "stupid" is another man's acceptable risk. Some would consider you stupid for getting in ANY airplane and actually leaving the ground. People get killed do that, you know.
 
saracelica said:
That was the point of the author as well. Seemed a little restrictive but I'm a IR student pilot so I wasn't sure. I know I've come back home after dark on a couple of XC's but it was a beautiful clear night and had 2 other pilots on board with more experience to help if I needed.
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Last month I spent a number of hours IMC at night and as far as I can tell, the airplane didn't notice the difference. It ran and flew exactly like it had earlier in the day.
 
jbarrass said:
I actually prefer night to day. Less traffic, cooler, usually better weather.....

XC I fly IFR whether it's IMC or VMC (well I do that in the day too...)

I'm way more afraid of ice than dark.....
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I pretty much agree -- though I'm very much aware that engine out at night is a very difficult spot to be in, VMC or IMC. I too fly all my XCs IFR whether VMC or IMC, except when there are good reasons not to (MEA above the freezing level with IMC unavoidable, embedded thunderstorms, etc.). So far though, I only have about 5 minutes IMC at night (descending through a layer after doing some engine testing at altitude).

I don't think single engine IMC at night is stupid at all, and on the other hand I would respect anyone's decision to never do it. It's a personal decision and we all have different levels of risk tolerance.
 
But what about the chidren?

LDJones said:
Last month I spent a number of hours IMC at night and as far as I can tell, the airplane didn't notice the difference. It ran and flew exactly like it had earlier in the day.
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LDJones said:
Last month I spent a number of hours IMC at night and as far as I can tell, the airplane didn't notice the difference. It ran and flew exactly like it had earlier in the day.
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Are you a low hour pilot or just a high hour pilot who does not know better?
 
Seems like I did my IFR cross-country at night since I worked during the day. It was hard to tell, though, since I was under the hood...

No it wasn't in the mountains. It was in MO and IL.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
What spookes me more then single engine night IMC, is non FIKI IMC.

Ive encountered non-forecast icing at night in IMC a few times and it ain't fun!

The plane I was flying was a very well outfitted SE with G1000, Terrian, 2 axis autopilot, etc, just no icing capabilities. Watching those lil crystisls reflect off my flashlight and not being able to legally get lower or blow the ice off puts you in a interesting spot.
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Good point. One issue I have with night IMC (single or twin) is that it's much harder to avoid ice laden clouds enroute because you can't see them. Even with a de-iced airplane this can be problematic but I agree it's worse if your only ice protection is pitot heat.
 
wabower said:
But what about the chidren?
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Died in that day VFR plane crash in a twin. So we don't have to worry about them no more.

Anyway, all depends on what you're comfortable with. I don't like flying singles at all, mainly because I don't like them and we do a lot of flying through desolate areas and water. Main thing is being comfortable with night IMC in the first place. If you're comfortable with night flying, IMC flying, and single engine flying, I don't see an issue with doing them together.

Honestly, night IMC is some of my favorite flying. I miss it. Last time I did it was December. :(
 
Muttley said:
Did it last night, 600 miles and over the mountains too!
Not for one moment was I nervous, scared or concerned.
Was great, especially since it was so quiet on the radio
Except to hear the ATC call of someone who ran out of gas and landed 3 miles short.

Willing to bet it's more dangerous to be a dumbass than to fly at night!
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LOL...True dat!
 
Let's not forget there's night IMC and then there's night IFR. The later may involve VMC the whole way, or possibly just busting through a broken cloud layer to a beautiful moonlit night. To say no night IMC with no qualifiers is meaningless.
 
wabower said:
Because it's neither stupid or dangerous. Collins researched this subject extensively many years ago. It's a bogus argument.
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True.

I'm surprised that no one mentioned this yet, but among the old timers and even many current professional twin guys, the argument against flying a piston singe IFR at night has more to do with the lack of redundancy than worrying about a simple engine failure.

Many perceive the twin as safer because of dual vacuum pumps, dual alternators/generators...etc, so you in theory have greater protection from instrument failure and subsequent disorientation in the twin.

If the airplane is available and I can afford it, I'd take the twin over the single for that reason.....but nothing is a guarantee. Plenty of pro pilots have augered in after instrument failures in twins (the OSU King Air crash in CO comes to mind). Plus with all the aftermarket redundancy add ons available, I see no problem flying a single IFR at night.
 
Everskyward said:
Seems like I did my IFR cross-country at night since I worked during the day. It was hard to tell, though, since I was under the hood...

No it wasn't in the mountains. It was in MO and IL.
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I also did afterwork Instrument training, and on weekends, in WV and southern Ohio. Was my CFII stupid for making all of those night flights with me? My XC was a Saturday day over snow-covered hills and fields. I go to/from GA & NC in IMC or VMC; sometimes I land after dark, sometimes I depart after dark. I am not fond of, and avoid, night IMC and flying over low IMC in the mountains.

Above tops, with good ceilings below, I'll go. Night IMC, not much. Mountains plus night or IMC but not all three.

If SE night flight is so dangerous, why are both night flight and night XC required to earn a pilot certificate? Are those of us who live outside the Great Plains expected to only ever fly day VFR? That's a good reason to get a PPL, to havethe option to not fly for 80% of our time outside of work. Low utilization really encourages people to buy airplanes too--what does that do to aircraft values when nobody will buy one because they're afraid to ever use it?

Or am I just another low-time newbie who hasn't been seduced flying multi-engine turbines that I'm notpaying for? You'd probably say unkind things about the 9-year old truck that just replaced my 17-year old car. But you probably routinely fly jetsthat someone else has preflighted, without checking the fuel on board. Sure, you check the paper that has the fuel that someone else says is there, but we both know that's not the same thing.
 
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