IFR and cost and future plans

bryankloos

Filing Flight Plan
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Bryan Kloos
Hi All,

I just passed my PPL with about 47 hours total.
I plan to fly myself and friends/family for maybe 30-40 more hours and then contemplate IFR.
The issue is, costs and future plans.

My dry costs are 150-160/hour dry and then 70 for CFI.

I would like to buy a plane. My mission would be weekends and day mostly under 400 miles but capacity to carry 4 (total passenger weight 650 lbs now, kids are 11/13 so the weight will creep over the next few years).

I was thinking about a cherokee 6, bonanza, Saratoga or something similar. In semi-rough shape, with the future plans of a resto.

Is this lunacy?

Buy a cheap plane. Fly it. Get VFR hours and then do the IFR, and then a year or two later do a big resto.

Tell me I'm crazy...

Or maybe its a good idea?

Thoughts?
 
Dunno. This is all new. My wife would kill me if she read this post.
I'd like to be all in under 300K after a neno.
I could swing 100K+ in the near term.
I would also use is for my personal business and the associatex tax advantages.
Open to all suggestions.
I'm just thinking 100 hours of rental costs me 20-25K. Why not put that money into a plane.
 
Not crazy, but if plopping down ten grand for an IRA is costly, then how do you rationalize buying any IFR capable airframe cheaper than that. You still be in another 3 AMUs for the CFII in your own plane.

Even if you did the minimum CFII time and did all the rest with a safety pilot, I still don’t see how that would be cheaper than renting.

Oh, I get it. You’ll sell the clapped out IFR trainer after getting your IRA. You’re still in for hangar/tie down fees and insurance along with the carrying costs.
 
Oh, I get it. You’ll sell the clapped out IFR trainer after getting your IRA. You’re still in for hangar/tie down fees and insurance along with the carrying costs.
Was actually thinking of buying something that needs a restoration, putting hours on it now, and then redoing interior, paint, panel to a more current and enjoyable platform down the road.

10K isn't the issue. I'm just thining it would be nice to have a plane that I can use on my terms.

My club will want a minimum of 3 hours for any overnight even if I only put 2 on the hobbs. And the gas price is per hour, not actual usage. It adds up.
 
Was actually thinking of buying something that needs a restoration, putting hours on it now, and then redoing interior, paint, panel to a more current and enjoyable platform down the road.

10K isn't the issue. I'm just thining it would be nice to have a plane that I can use on my terms.

My club will want a minimum of 3 hours for any overnight even if I only put 2 on the hobbs. And the gas price is per hour, not actual usage. It adds up.

Why do you need an overnight for an instrument rating? That’s beside the point.

If you want to take this route, make sure the panel is already done, because it’d suck spending 40hrs learning on a panel you’re changing out in the near future.
 
You’re still in for hangar/tie down fees and insurance along with the carrying costs.

And maintenance costs, which could be big.

Was actually thinking of buying something that needs a restoration,

Planes that “need restoration” have often been neglected and will require lots of expensive attention to be reliable and safe.
 
Hi All,

I just passed my PPL with about 47 hours total.
I plan to fly myself and friends/family for maybe 30-40 more hours and then contemplate IFR.
The issue is, costs and future plans.

My dry costs are 150-160/hour dry and then 70 for CFI.

I would like to buy a plane. My mission would be weekends and day mostly under 400 miles but capacity to carry 4 (total passenger weight 650 lbs now, kids are 11/13 so the weight will creep over the next few years).

I was thinking about a cherokee 6, bonanza, Saratoga or something similar. In semi-rough shape, with the future plans of a resto.

Is this lunacy?

Buy a cheap plane. Fly it. Get VFR hours and then do the IFR, and then a year or two later do a big resto.

Tell me I'm crazy...

Or maybe its a good idea?

Thoughts?
$150 dry and $70 an hour instruction sure ain’t no bargain.
 
I nearly pulled the trigger on a Comanche a year ago and was planning to do my instrument rating in it. Fell through due to pre buy concerns and I’m now nearly done with my IR in our club archer. Honestly I’m glad I didn’t buy a plane before doing my IR, I’ve learned so much about what I’ll want in a plane and avionics setup in particular just from the IR training. I probably would’ve been completely fine had that purchase gone through but I do think I’m in better shape now for my ongoing plane search.

Just my two cents…

Also, not sure where exactly you are in the northeast but I think you could probably find cheaper training if there are any flying clubs with CFIs near you. I’m in an extremely expensive metro area in the northeast and my wet rate including instruction is about $160/hr. I think the flight school where I did my training with lesser equipped (than our club archer) Warriors is now up to around $240/hr wet incl. instruction. Worth maybe looking into a club before you go the ownership route.
 
I bought an ifr capable straight back 172 with an adequate but unimpressive panel. My son is using it for his private and the plan is for both of us to do instrument together after his private. Once we're both IFR we'll either upgrade to a bigger/faster or I'll just finish my Zenith 801, sell the 172 to pay for the engine. Im fairly certain I can break even when we sell it.

A comparable plane rents locally for $150/hr wet so we're charging ourselves $125/hr to fund its eventual overhaul. I tell myself I'm saving $25/hr and I dont need anyone's permission to go smash bugs.
 
Congrats on the PPL!!

Not a bad plan overall. If this is a plane you are going to keep for awhile then spend on a well maintained but maybe older panel. Lots of bonanzas and Comanches out there like that. Perfectly flyable. Just get a good pre buy to know what challenges you’re buying. Both have strong owner groups to help too.

With your low time and zero retract time, insurance will be a big factor. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear 40 hours - 20 dual and 20 solo before flying pax. Use the dual to get your complex/hp, and start some IFR training too. Oh …..And the insurance rate will reflect that low time too.

The panel upgrade cost and downtime will depend on how far you want to go. And spend. But well worth it if you’re keeping it a bit.
 
I say do it, but understand there is massive risk, you could buy a stinker and be out 100% of your cash.

As an Example, I had to pay $1800 for a broken lightbulb just 2 mos ago, okay it was the planes beacon but you get gist, it can get expensive really fast.

Truthfully, I regret not buying sooner

Don't buy anything ROUGH, doesn't have to be the nicest but a fixer upper is only good as an A&P flip.
 
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Aircraft renovation and avionics costs are eye-poppingly large. Understand that the reason to own is convenience and safety, not cost savings. If you are financially able, and have LOTS of disposable income, plunge in. But understand that you are entering a grand learning experience, where you don't know what you don't know. Newly minted pilots (myself included) overestimate the practical utility of GA. It's not an all-weather activity, even with an IR. But it is fun, if expensive.
 
You don’t really save money owning an airplane. But you could try to find a cheap low fuel consumption airplane and park it on the ramp and you might break even if you fly 100+ hours per year. You will have insurance, parking, mx, fuel, unexpected repairs and down time. It isn’t cheap. I don’t even calculate it personally but I like having the option to fly places, but even then I don’t fly as often as I’d like to, and I already fly a lot, just takes a lot of time to go places and my airplane has been down for awhile for the annual which is fine I don’t want to fly when it’s the peak of summer either. You can fly first class domestically and you’ll come out ahead on costs and time.

Considering you’re mentioning 300k you are either losing interest or paying interest, that’s another 15-20k per year and you’re probably looking at another 10k easy for fixed costs. So 25-30k before you even start the engine. You can fly a lot of hours in a club plane for that and an instructor is not required all of the time either, what’s that, 200 hours?
 
I nearly pulled the trigger on a Comanche a year ago and was planning to do my instrument rating in it. Fell through due to pre buy concerns and I’m now nearly done with my IR in our club archer. Honestly I’m glad I didn’t buy a plane before doing my IR, I’ve learned so much about what I’ll want in a plane and avionics setup in particular just from the IR training. I probably would’ve been completely fine had that purchase gone through but I do think I’m in better shape now for my ongoing plane search.

Just my two cents…

This is great advice! There is no substitute for experience. Get the IR and fly your family around for some weekend trips - you'll learn a lot for what works and doesn't work for your situation. Then look at purchasing an aircraft. You may also want to reach out to this youtuber who went through the process you're contemplating: https://www.youtube.com/@SoCalFlyingMonkey
 
Needs restoration = never ending money pit.

Seriously, I’ve never seen anybody do a restoration that was cheaper than buying one already restored. Even now that the market is paying more for nice planes, it’s also paying more for crap planes, so the restore for profit thing still doesn’t seem to work.
 
welcome to poa! pa32 or a36. have fun. bring money.
 
You indicated that you are in a flying club. Any honestly managed flying club is cheaper than any owned aircraft.

The annual, insurance, tiedown, licenses and permits for the radios and registrations all add up to much more than you realize
The hours needed to research and keep all those items current is time consuming.
The 3 hour minimum is trivial for a 2 hour flight, the extra hour will not pay for a months tiedown in many airports.

My viewpoint is from more than 50 years in a well run and currently solvent flying club. I had the assets needed to buy at the beginning, but the numbers said flying club.

Twice, in severe financial downturns, I could have bought IFR current planes for less than half of their market value the previous year.

Having been the maintenance chief several times, I am familiar with the disruption to normal life that dealing with shops can be.
As permits chief, the constant renewals of various federal, state, and local licenses and permits was a drag, as they were at scattered times through the years.
As treasurer, I had to renew the corporate documents and do the corporate taxes each year. If you own a plane outright, you are wise to have an LLC as the owner.
As the insurance chief, I had the duty of finding the best rate for each renewal, contacting several companies.

Scheduler and safety officer are not needed for a personal aircraft, but all the rest are your job as soon as you commit to personal ownership.

I have taken trips as long as 4,000 miles, in 2 weeks, in the club planes, which required a vote of the members to be allowed, as there was a 9 day limit.

80,000 miles of cross country flights, and never wished I had my own plane after the first 5 years.

We nearly always had the money in the bank to pay for any needed repairs, and the planes were always well maintained.

The costs of the club plane that you quote is not as bad as they appear until you find out what they are paying for.



On the other hand, if the club you are in is a private for profit club, you may do much better in a co owned club, as is the one I was a member of. 10 guys formed a club, chipped in a starting fund of 120% of the price of the plane they wanted to buy, and 55 years later, it has 2 IFR 4 seat planes, and a significant bank balance. I am out of medical due to old age, 90, and am a member emeritus.
 
Another thing to consider is time as just noted above. Maintaining a plane takes a lot of effort. Going it alone either mean you have a lot of free time, or you can just throw money at the problem. For the latter than the question is why not just get a brand new plane.

Based on the original question I think just throwing money at problem is not viable.
 
With your low time and zero retract time, insurance will be a big factor. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear 40 hours - 20 dual and 20 solo before flying pax. Use the dual to get your complex/hp, and start some IFR training too. Oh …..And the insurance rate will reflect that low time too.
Insurance rate definitely reflected in my low time when I bought my Arrow, but they only required 15 hours dual (I had 52 hours when I bought and zero retract) last year. I used the 15 hours to get complex and hood time.

As an Example, I had to pay $1800 for a broken lightbulb just 2 mos ago, okay it was the planes beacon but you get gist, it can get expensive really fast.
Facts. I had to have my beacon replaced earlier this year and the LED replacement was $820 for just the light.

OP: I personally decided to go down the ownership route because I wanted to fly my plane when I wanted to and where I wanted to. I did purchase a plane that I thought would meet my mission for many years and tried to capitalize on other people making the investments in panel, engine, etc. You'll never recoup the full value of upgrades and restore unless you just get lucky and GA plane prices continue to skyrocket. My opinion, rent if it's just to build time and get IFR. Buy what you want to fly for a good long while. I would only get into a restore if I had some kind of in to keep costs down.
 
Thanks all.
I will talk with my club/school some more to see what reasonable costs will be going forward.
I'm not sure how they handle overnight rentals as the plans are all used for the school.
Maybe I need to find a true "club" that is not a school?
I'm just thinking of taking the wife to Martha's Vineyard for the weekend, flying to NH to kike for a couple days.
Up to Lake Placid to visit friends for a weekend. I'm not sure my current school/club will accommodate these types of trips.

Understood on the reno. Best to buy what I want now when I'm ready to buy... If I ever buy.
 
Thanks all.
I will talk with my club/school some more to see what reasonable costs will be going forward.
I'm not sure how they handle overnight rentals as the plans are all used for the school.
Maybe I need to find a true "club" that is not a school?
I'm just thinking of taking the wife to Martha's Vineyard for the weekend, flying to NH to kike for a couple days.
Up to Lake Placid to visit friends for a weekend. I'm not sure my current school/club will accommodate these types of trips.

Understood on the reno. Best to buy what I want now when I'm ready to buy... If I ever buy.

Uh, if your club is a pay for a discount membership option from a flight school, that’s not an onwership club.

I’m currently in a partnership on a C172. We charge $80/hr dry, just put in a new engine, have a nice panel, and $40K in the bank for a second plane. Our annual assessment is $2600, pays for all fixed expenses and the annual along with an allocation of 20 flight hrs per member included.

Last year, I flew that plane for 32.8hrs and paid $1,024 in flight charges. Combined with the assessment, I was out of pocket for $3624 or $110/hr dry all-in -insurance, hanger, all mx, all OH costs, you name it. We paid for the engine out of a dedicated reserve, so no extra for that.

I also flew another 41hrs in a few school ‘club’ membership planes at $165 - $185/hr wet plus $25/mo dues; you can do the math there.
 
You indicated that you are in a flying club. Any honestly managed flying club is cheaper than any owned aircraft.
This! A good flying club is the best way to fly.

Also, the best way to learn how to own an aircraft is to volunteer for/run for election to the club's board of directors. You get to learn what it takes to own aircraft, but spend other people's money doing it!
Thanks all.
I will talk with my club/school some more to see what reasonable costs will be going forward.
I'm not sure how they handle overnight rentals as the plans are all used for the school.
Maybe I need to find a true "club" that is not a school?
Yes. What you are talking about is not a flying club at all, it's a way for the school to get you to pay more up front.

A flying club has its own airplanes, or in some cases leases back airplanes from owners, but does not allow for rental outside of the club and usually does not offer flight instruction.

There are equity clubs (where you own shares of stock in a corporation that then owns the planes) and there are non-equity clubs (where you have no ownership stake). Generally, there is an up-front cost for either - In an equity club you need to purchase the stock from a departing member, in a non-equity club there is usually a membership fee.

Then, you pay by month and by hour. Ideally, the club will be run such that the monthly dues cover fixed expenses (insurance, hangar, inspection portion of the annual, organizational overhead) and the hourly rates cover variable expenses (fuel, oil, maintenance, etc).

For availability, with a single-airplane club, you generally want 5 or fewer flying members. The more planes the club has, the more members per plane you can support. My club was 30 members and 3 airplanes, with excellent availability (I think I only was unable to fly once in 14 years of membership).

FWIW, the club I was in has an R182 (RG) with Aspen glass, a Diamond DA40 with G1000, and an Archer that recently got a completely new panel (G3X Touch, GFC500, etc). They charge $220/month, have no debt, maintain the airplanes well. https://www.capcityflyers.com/ https://www.facebook.com/CapitolCityFlyers

For my own plane, the fixed costs run me about $1400/mo and variable costs an additional $125/hr. Plus, the occasional $50K to dump new Garmin toys in it.
 
Uh, if your club is a pay for a discount membership option from a flight school, that’s not an onwership club.
The "club" is chaging me $100/month dues and then I'm being charged $212 wet for a basic Warrior II with steam.
At least that's how I wasa charged during the PPL, and I'm guessing its the same now that I have the certificate.

Whats the best way to find an ownership club like above?
 
AOPA has a club locator function. FB pilot/aviation groups are other good sources. Google search flying club yourcity your state.

Networking is usually how you find these opportunities.
 
Insurance rate definitely reflected in my low time when I bought my Arrow, but they only required 15 hours dual (I had 52 hours when I bought and zero retract) last year. I used the 15 hours to get complex and hood time.


Facts. I had to have my beacon replaced earlier this year and the LED replacement was $820 for just the light.

OP: I personally decided to go down the ownership route because I wanted to fly my plane when I wanted to and where I wanted to. I did purchase a plane that I thought would meet my mission for many years and tried to capitalize on other people making the investments in panel, engine, etc. You'll never recoup the full value of upgrades and restore unless you just get lucky and GA plane prices continue to skyrocket. My opinion, rent if it's just to build time and get IFR. Buy what you want to fly for a good long while. I would only get into a restore if I had some kind of in to keep costs down.
This is the real point, i can go when and do what ever the hell i want with my plane. IT"S FRICKIN AWESOME. one thing, they are machines, so you can't just leave them sitting in the hangar for extended period of time without excercising them.

one good thing about buying, unless you tear it up or run it till it's dead, you'll likely get the purchase price back so there is that. heck if you purchased 4 years ago, your plane has doubled/tripled in value. you've still spent more money on maintenance however.
 
The "club" is chaging me $100/month dues and then I'm being charged $212 wet for a basic Warrior II with steam.
At least that's how I wasa charged during the PPL, and I'm guessing its the same now that I have the certificate.

Whats the best way to find an ownership club like above?
this isnt a club. Im loathe to call things rip - offs, but paying $100 a month to have the privilege to rent piper warrior with steam gauges at $212 wet - is pretty high - even by Northeast US standards. . . Plain school - sure. But a membership club ? nah
 
Yes, this is why I'm going to start looking for proper clubs.
I'd like to fly something with better avionics as well.
 
You can start your own private club with a few like minded individuals.

I fully believe in doing that unless you have unlimited time to spend on the plane. Things will break and a group of guys means others can devote some time on chasing down parts, organizing shop access, shuttling back from another field with your preferred mechanic. And of course when the wife asks well yeah the costs is shared!
 
With your low time and no IR - others have said it, but - InSuRaNcE. I just got a quote for $5,200 / year for our Arrow to add another person with around 40 hours PIC, no IR, zero retract/complex. Current premium (with just two of us - lots of hours PIC/retract/complex and > IR) is around $1,400.

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so from my experience over the last 7 years, i'm running about $170 - $190 / hr wet for my bird.

if all you do is the occasional $100 hamburger run, yeah, you're probably better off with a club but if you plan on taking extended trips or need flexibility, clubs / rentals just can't compare
 
so from my experience over the last 7 years, i'm running about $170 - $190 / hr wet for my bird.
I just looked using my estimates from above. $237/hr. Gulp...

Except you can't really think about it like that, or you'll never use the plane. Here's how I think about it: My first hour every year costs about $23,000. The rest of them cost about $60.
if all you do is the occasional $100 hamburger run, yeah, you're probably better off with a club but if you plan on taking extended trips or need flexibility, clubs / rentals just can't compare
Depends on the club. If you stick to the size of club I mentioned above, there's excellent availability and flexibility. I do know of clubs that have 40-50 members per airplane, and only a couple of airplanes. It's hard to even stay current in a club like that, unless a large percentage of members don't fly any more.

In the club I was talking about above (30 members/3 airplanes), I was able to take the 182 for a three-week, 5800-nm, 63-hour adventure where I landed at the highest and lowest airports in the ConUS, did a mountain flying course, landed on grass, gravel, and pavement, stopped and saw several PoAers, and had an excellent time.
 
I've owned my own light GA aircraft for 24 years. I wouldn't have it any other way; it's been a marvelous experience.

Is it practical? No, I could have flown all of my "needed" trips first class on the airlines for a pittance compared to what I've spent.

Is it cost-effective? No, especially in the modern era of $8.00 Avgas and ramp fees at many medium+ airports.

Does it make any financial sense whatsoever? No. Virtually every other means of traveling, to include enjoying GA by renting or joining a flying club, are better.

Should you do this, especially with a grand total of 50 hours under your belt, with only a vague justification of why you might want to own an aircraft? Probably not. If you're being purely rational, that is.

GA used to be the realm of the upper middle class. That's still possible, but the standard of what that looks like has changed. I once had dreams of upgrading from my Twin Comanche to a Baron. If that ever does happen, it'll be with a partnership of at least two other potential owners. But, I'm not in any hurry to push that button. I've played with the idea of selling my airplane and renting a FIKI SR-22T from a local operation whenever I need to travel. Even though the hourly costs are eye-watering, 50-75 hours per year or so would still pencil out to less than the cost of operating my own light twin, after all the costs are accounted for.

- Hourly fuel
- Hourly DOCs to include engine/prop reserves
- Annual inspection
- Insurance
- Monthly hangar cost
- Unscheduled maintenance
- IFR cert (every 24 mo X 3 altimeters)
- Database subscriptions (GPS)
- Firmware updates (GPS, transponder)
- Tires
- Oil changes
- Interior refurb

... the list goes on. A mag will die. A starter will fail. Your fuel gauge sender will start sticking. Your engine will have cooling issues. Your flight control cables will need to be re-tensioned. You'll need new fuel bladders. The seats will need to be reupholstered. Your shimmy dampener no longer stops the shimmy. Your retractable landing gear will need big time maintenance. Some new AD will come out. On, and on, and on. It never, ever ends.

Last year one of my props failed to pass inspection. It wasn't possible to overhaul. It cost $12,000 for a replacement which had been recently overhauled. That prop "may" have one overhaul left before it, too, is scrap. A year or two prior I overhauled my 1960s era two-axis autopilot and did a light panel upgrade to include a second G5, glideslope coupler, GPS roll steering, and a few other odds and ends - that was $25,000.

There are just a few observations from the other side of the coin. Don't ask me what my true hourly operating expenses are. I stopped calculating that in detail. I know roughly what they are, of course, but I don't really "want" to know exactly what they are anymore.

What are the benefits, though?

For one, no one flies the aircraft but me, so I never worry about it being abused or damaged by some unknown other party.

And it's a magic carpet that can take me wherever I want to go, whenever I feel like it. Most of the time... weather in the northeast can get pretty gnarly.

And it keeps me out of EWR and other similar unpleasant places (major airports) some of the time. Airline travel has become nearly intolerable in the modern age, at least for me. (Job security, though - I fly business jets.)

And, it makes me happy. For a huge, nearly back-breaking sum. Every time I think about selling the airplane the "void" of that ability to simply hop in and be 500 miles away in a few hours feels stifling. I don't often leave on a lark, but whenever I do, it's quite the liberating feeling.

My final thoughts? Give it some time. Sure, you could buy an airplane and get your instrument rating in that, but aircraft ownership is a whole learning experience in and of itself. It would be quite a lot, especially at your current stage of development, to dive into the many rabbit holes associated with buying an older vintage aircraft and dealing with all of the inevitable challenges that presents, no matter how well-maintained it was by the previous owner.

I don't agree with the notion that you should learn in what you will be flying. You can, but you don't need to. It's always a relatively easy adjustment to a new panel so long as it's not pure glass to pure steam, and even then, the transition time isn't going to move the needle much on your ownership cost. I'd beat up someone else's trainer, generally speaking, even though IFR isn't usually too hard on a rental. You show up, you focus on learning, you leave, they worry about the airplane. That's nice while you're training, especially if you have a career and family to tend to when you're not training. (It sounds like you do.)

There you have it. Not sure why the big data dump, but now you're in receipt of it. It's worth what you paid for it. :)
 
Fantastic advice.

So, to recap, I'm exploring local clubs to find better aircraft for better pricing.
I will continue to learn and practice.
I will take some time to enjjoy the PPL before starting the IFR. If I can train on a club plane, I will find a good CFI to join me. If not, I will go back to my old old school and use them/their fleet for the IFR training.

Once I have this behind me i will investigate more the purchase/partnership/rent scenarios as they relate to my mission.

Time to start seeing is I can write off rental fees for business travel to my clients...
 
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