IFR and Bravo

[VWGhiaBob]

OK...so here's a crazy one...my IFR clearance leaving KOAK (Oakland) was to climb to 3000 feet on the Nimitz 5 DP and then to expect higher from ATC. Thing is, 3,000 feet is the bottom of the SFO Bravo and they didn't even mention Bravo. I intentionally flew 20 feet lower than assigned. When I switched to ATC, they then cleared me to 4,000 feet, which is the bottom of the next Bravo shelf. Again, I flew 20 feet under the Bravo.

Question is...why would ATC give a clearance that's in theory at the bottom of the Bravo and if flown as assigned is a violation without additonal Bravo clearance? Why wouldn't they just clear to 2,900 and 3,900 respectively?

 

[midwestpa24]

If you are on an IFR clearance and they direct you into the Bravo, that is your clearance. No violation. That is why I prefer to be IFR if going into or around Bravo airspace.

 

[labbadabba]

OK...so here's a crazy one...my IFR clearance leaving KOAK (Oakland) was to climb to 3000 feet on the Nimitz 5 DP and then to expect higher from ATC. Thing is, 3,000 feet is the bottom of the SFO Bravo and they didn't even mention Bravo. I intentionally flew 20 feet lower than assigned. When I switched to ATC, they then cleared me to 4,000 feet, which is the bottom of the next Bravo shelf. Again, I flew 20 feet under the Bravo.

Question is...why would ATC give a clearance that's in theory at the bottom of the Bravo and if flown as assigned is a violation without additonal Bravo clearance? Why wouldn't they just clear to 2,900 and 3,900 respectively?

I guess my question is, why did you not fly your assigned altitude? Was this by chance on Pilotedge?

 

[jordane93]

You’re on an IFR clearance. Fly your assigned altitude. Airspace is almost obsolete.

 

[AggieMike88]

You’re on an IFR clearance. Fly your assigned altitude. Airspace is almost obsolete.

This... The way it was explained to me was "when on IFR clearance, clearance into the Bravo space is implied."

 

[WannFly]

This... The way it was explained to me was "when on IFR clearance, clearance into the Bravo space is implied."

Learnt something new today. Thanks.

 

[drjcustis]

This... The way it was explained to me was "when on IFR clearance, clearance into the Bravo space is implied."

I think almost.

An enrolled controller can mistakenly vector you towards Bravo without meaning to. Bust the Bravo and you may pay for it. But, I agree that if the Bravo airspace controllers clear you to an altitude, you should fly it and that the transit through Bravo is implied.

But, a quick inquiry resolved it: “Am I cleared through Bravo?”


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[midwestpa24]

An enrolled controller can mistakenly vector you towards Bravo without meaning to. Bust the Bravo and you may pay for it. But, I agree that if the Bravo airspace controllers clear you to an altitude, you should fly it and that the transit through Bravo is implied.

If you are IFR on a clearance, then any bust will belong to the controller. You were complying with your ATC clearance.

 

[jordane93]

I think almost.

An enrolled controller can mistakenly vector you towards Bravo without meaning to. Bust the Bravo and you may pay for it. But, I agree that if the Bravo airspace controllers clear you to an altitude, you should fly it and that the transit through Bravo is implied.

But, a quick inquiry resolved it: “Am I cleared through Bravo?”


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The OP was on an IFR clearance. You don’t need a Bravo clearance when you’re IFR.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

The only one I worry about IFR is the FRZ. Been vectored a little too close for comfort once or twice. Other than that, if you fly your clearance you're golden.

 

[frfly172]

You are on an IFR clearance ,you should fly what they give you,you only need to be cleared into the bravo if your VFR using flight following.

 

[BigBadLou]

But, a quick inquiry resolved it: “Am I cleared through Bravo?”

Don't be surprised if the answer is in form of a question "Are you instrument rated and current?"
A pilot with IR should know his clearance limit, it is given in the original clearance.

 

[Palmpilot]

To summarize, as long as you comply with ATC instructions, an IFR clearance is a clearance to enter any bravo airspace along your route of flight.

 

[Tantalum]

my IFR clearance

why would ATC give a clearance that's in theory at the bottom of the Bravo and if flown as assigned is a violation without additonal Bravo clearance?

As the others pointed out, once you have a IFR clearance you are *cleared* to fly the route they cleared you on.. that makes Bravo clearance implicit

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Pilotedge...love this site! And no. This was real IFR out of KOAK. Last I studied the FAR's, 20 feet below assigned altitude was not a violation.


From the OP...well I guess I should have added I just got my IFR ticket, so hopefully I get a "free pass" on the dumb ques

I guess my question is, why did you not fly your assigned altitude? Was this by chance on Pilotedge?

tion. My instructor replied too...an IFR clearance is a 100% clearance...through anything and everything including Bravo. As long as you follow it, you're good. Ok...on to more lessons in my new "license to learn".

OK...so here's a crazy one...my IFR clearance leaving KOAK (Oakland) was to climb to 3000 feet on the Nimitz 5 DP and then to expect higher from ATC. Thing is, 3,000 feet is the bottom of the SFO Bravo and they didn't even mention Bravo. I intentionally flew 20 feet lower than assigned. When I switched to ATC, they then cleared me to 4,000 feet, which is the bottom of the next Bravo shelf. Again, I flew 20 feet under the Bravo.

Question is...why would ATC give a clearance that's in theory at the bottom of the Bravo and if flown as assigned is a violation without additonal Bravo clearance? Why wouldn't they just clear to 2,900 and 3,900 respectively?

 

[EdFred]

I have gotten an IFR clearance "as filed" which has put me into two different Bravo's and one time three different Bravos.

CVG/TPA
DTW/CLE
DTW/CLE/PHL

No reroutes on the way either.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You can't fly into Bravo airspace without a clearance. That's true. But what the question and some of the answers miss, is you can't fly IFR in any controlled airspace without a clearance.

That's the difference. VFR, you are not flying around with a clearance, so you need a special one to enter Class B. IFR, you already are on a clearance, so you don't need another one.

 

[Tantalum]

VFR, you are not flying around with a clearance, so you need a special one to enter Class B

and the 2-way communication established for C and D has been misconstrued in the past. I've heard stories of people flying into Deltas because even though the tower denied entry for it being too busy they still punched into it claiming "well I had two way comms so I was legal"

Have also heard people call up a hair outside the Delta and fly into it before TWR acknowledges them.. I've never heard someone get a number but 3 times now I've heard "you were not cleared to enter my airspace" - and these were both times at a Delta

 

[Ravioli]

...you only need to be cleared into the bravo if your VFR using flight following.

Flight Following is not part of the requirement. I can fly towards DFW Bravo from any direction talking to no one. I only need to get the clearance when I'm getting close enough to care.

But a funny thing we hear (all too often) is something like:
"Dallas Approach, Bugdestroyer 666, am I cleared for the Bravo?"
"Bugdestroyer 666, Your filed IFR to KADS, why the question?"

And if you fly around the North Side of the DFW Bravo you know that sector is often rapid fire calls from a stressed out controller. Just once I want to hear them say "No, fly heading 270 and expect further clearance in two zero minutes"

 

[Hank S]

You are on an IFR clearance ,you should fly what they give you,you only need to be cleared into the bravo if your VFR using flight following.

Whenever I'm trying to get to the other side of ATL:

• when IFR, they vector me to either HEFIN or CINKA; depending on my route, I sometimes get to choose which out-of-the-way spot to visit, a mere 45nm or so away.
• when VFR, I'm usually told to "remain clear of the Bravo," although I have been told a few times to "stay out of the Bravo."
• going over isn't a real option, because unlike other busy Bravos, ATL goes from field elevation ~1100 msl to 12,500, and my O-360 doesn't like being asked to hit 13,500 eastbound (then there's that nagging 30-minute limit without oxygen).

Other places, you may find nice controllers who will share their airspace with you. But not around here, in the Friendly South . . . . .

P.S.--I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I have gotten an IFR clearance "as filed" which has put me into two different Bravo's and one time three different Bravos.

CVG/TPA
DTW/CLE
DTW/CLE/PHL

No reroutes on the way either.

Try filing a flight plan that takes you through CLT.

Even if they clear you ‘as filed’ CLT TRACON will find a way to reroute you before you get there.

 

[Fearless Tower]

[*]going over isn't a real option, because unlike other busy Bravos, ATL goes from field elevation ~1100 msl to 12,500, and my O-360 doesn't like being asked to hit 13,500 eastbound (then there's that nagging 30-minute limit without oxygen).

That’s assuming they even let you go over.

At CLT (top is 10k) they have never let me go IFR over the top at 11k. Last time I tried, they tried to give me a reroute that would have added 20 minutes to my flight time.

I replied with a simple ‘cancel IFR’

 

[BrianNC]

Whenever I'm trying to get to the other side of ATL:

• when IFR, they vector me to either HEFIN or CINKA; depending on my route, I sometimes get to choose which out-of-the-way spot to visit, a mere 45nm or so away.
• when VFR, I'm usually told to "remain clear of the Bravo," although I have been told a few times to "stay out of the Bravo."
• going over isn't a real option, because unlike other busy Bravos, ATL goes from field elevation ~1100 msl to 12,500, and my O-360 doesn't like being asked to hit 13,500 eastbound (then there's that nagging 30-minute limit without oxygen).

Other places, you may find nice controllers who will share their airspace with you. But not around here, in the Friendly South . . . . .

P.S.--I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow.

I follow someone on Instagram that flies from the south side of Atlanta to the north side quite frequently. She's always posting shots of the runways at about 5000 ft where they clear her right over the airport through the airspace. Go figure.

 

[EdFred]

Try filing a flight plan that takes you through CLT.

Even if they clear you ‘as filed’ CLT TRACON will find a way to reroute you before you get there.

Oh I don't always get an as filed from start to finish, but there have been times I have where I didn't get any reroutes and was through those airspaces.

 

[midwestpa24]

I follow someone on Instagram that flies from the south side of Atlanta to the north side quite frequently. She's always posting shots of the runways at about 5000 ft where they clear her right over the airport through the airspace. Go figure.

All depends on which directions you are going. South to North or vice versa its easier to go right over the top. All the traffic is approaching and departing from the East/West.

 

[PaulS]

So I'm training for my IR and the airport I'm flying out of is under the Boston bravo. When we are flying on an IFR clearance we don't worry about it. When we are VFR practicing approaches with ATC we do not enter the bravo unless specifically cleared to do so. Most of the time the controller will clear us in in plenty of time. Some times we start getting uncomfortably close and will ask for clearance which, so far, has been immediately granted. That's all I know.

 

[Hank S]

Whenever I'm trying to get to the other side of ATL:

• when IFR, they vector me to either HEFIN or CINKA; depending on my route, I sometimes get to choose which out-of-the-way spot to visit, a mere 45nm or so away.
• when VFR, I'm usually told to "remain clear of the Bravo," although I have been told a few times to "stay out of the Bravo."
• going over isn't a real option, because unlike other busy Bravos, ATL goes from field elevation ~1100 msl to 12,500, and my O-360 doesn't like being asked to hit 13,500 eastbound (then there's that nagging 30-minute limit without oxygen).

Other places, you may find nice controllers who will share their airspace with you. But not around here, in the Friendly South . . . . .

P.S.--I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow.

Passed south of the Bravo this morning, right over Thomaston (~30 nm from the edge). On FF, so Approach had me descend from 9500 to 7500 because ATL was landing to the east. Once I passed the midpoint of the Bravo, they let me climb back up out of the haze and into the nice tailwinds again (course 072, almost 20 knots free).

Seems I just can't win with them . . . . But at the beginning of 430+nm trip, with weather expected at the end, I wanted FF. Only had to make one small weather deviation in eastern NC, it's been clear since before lunch so hopefully the grass strip dries out.

 

[MBDiagMan]

That’s the advantages of filing, even in VFR conditions, you don’t worry about air space.

 

[Hank S]

That’s the advantages of filing, even in VFR conditions, you don’t worry about air space.

When I file across ATL, I get either of the SINCA or HEFIN penalty boxes, when my direct route is right over ATL. SINCA ia almost to Macon; HEFIN is due west of ATL but in Alabama. Both add significantly to flight time.

Maybe my next trip south of the Bravo, I'll file and see what happens. Low expectations and all that . . . It's always possible to cancel IFR later in the flight when conditions are conducive to remaining VFR.

 

[Fearless Tower]

When I file across ATL, I get either of the SINCA or HEFIN penalty boxes, when my direct route is right over ATL. SINCA ia almost to Macon; HEFIN is due west of ATL but in Alabama. Both add significantly to flight time.

Maybe my next trip south of the Bravo, I'll file and see what happens. Low expectations and all that . . . It's always possible to cancel IFR later in the flight when conditions are conducive to remaining VFR.

I’m not a controller, so I can’t explain why, but one of the things I’ve noticed is that there are times when it is easier to get a VFR clearance near, through or over the Bravo than IFR.

CLT for example, will let you go over the top of the Bravo on Flight Following, but if you want to stay IFR, they’ll route you the long way around regardless of altitude.

 

[MetalCloud]

Something to be careful of... I was departing Santa Monica on an IFR plan. I was advised it would be 10+ minutes for clearance.... since it was a beautiful VFR day, I cancelled IFR and received immediate VFR takeoff clearance.... almost busted LAX Bravo because I wasn't in VFR frame of mind! Well, it wasn't that close, but close enough to make me think.

 

[RyanB]

It’s actually concerning to me that the OP had thought a Bravo clearance would be required when on an IFR flight plan.

 

[flyingron]

{QUOTE]CLT for example, will let you go over the top of the Bravo on Flight Following, but if you want to stay IFR, they’ll route you the long way around regardless of altitude.[/QUOTE]
Chicago is the same way. There's no way to avoid going to the KELSI intersection it seems.

I was cleared at 10,000 feet a few years ago.
27K: Is there any altitude I can request that will avoid me having to go to KELSI?
C90: Let me check... (slight pause)... no.
27K: OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to climb up to 10,500, cancel IFR, and you'll give me flight following direct to OSH
C90: That will work. IFR cancellation received. Keep the same squawk.

 

[arnoha]

Chicago is the same way. There's no way to avoid going to the KELSI intersection it seems.

I was cleared at 10,000 feet a few years ago.
27K: Is there any altitude I can request that will avoid me having to go to KELSI?
C90: Let me check... (slight pause)... no.
27K: OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to climb up to 10,500, cancel IFR, and you'll give me flight following direct to OSH
C90: That will work. IFR cancellation received. Keep the same squawk.

That can definitely work, but my understanding from the approach controllers is that 1200 traffic at 10,500 is the bane of their existence. At least around here. More than once the request has come through that, if you're going to be at 10,500 please talk to us, even if it's not required. (Which you were, in this story, so this isn't aimed at you.)

Makes sense, they want to get those jets up and away from the airport and away from the speed restrictions down low.

 

[flyingron]

Despite talking to C90 they forgot to hold one jet (out of the many) at 9000 and he climbed into us and generated a TCAS RA.

I'm still not sure why letting us go through the class B at 6000 or some altitude is better than having us buzz around on the periphery of the class B VFR in the direct path of the departures which all need to be held down.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It’s actually concerning to me that the OP had thought a Bravo clearance would be required when on an IFR flight plan.

I'm not. Yes, it's pretty basic knowledge, but so are a lot of a lot of things we see questions about. There are things that simply don't come up in training or aren't used often enough to remain in short term memory. And this is more harmless than most.

 

[midwestpa24]

{QUOTE]CLT for example, will let you go over the top of the Bravo on Flight Following, but if you want to stay IFR, they’ll route you the long way around regardless of altitude.

Chicago is the same way. There's no way to avoid going to the KELSI intersection it seems.

I was cleared at 10,000 feet a few years ago.
27K: Is there any altitude I can request that will avoid me having to go to KELSI?
C90: Let me check... (slight pause)... no.
27K: OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to climb up to 10,500, cancel IFR, and you'll give me flight following direct to OSH
C90: That will work. IFR cancellation received. Keep the same squawk.[/QUOTE]

Yep, nothing they can do if you are VFR and outside of their airspace. Causes problems to their flow though as you pass through departure and arrival corridors, but still nothing that can do other than vector IFR traffic around you. You'll make a lot of friends in ATC.

 

[sarangan]

OK...so here's a crazy one...my IFR clearance leaving KOAK (Oakland) was to climb to 3000 feet on the Nimitz 5 DP and then to expect higher from ATC. Thing is, 3,000 feet is the bottom of the SFO Bravo and they didn't even mention Bravo. I intentionally flew 20 feet lower than assigned. When I switched to ATC, they then cleared me to 4,000 feet, which is the bottom of the next Bravo shelf. Again, I flew 20 feet under the Bravo.

Question is...why would ATC give a clearance that's in theory at the bottom of the Bravo and if flown as assigned is a violation without additonal Bravo clearance? Why wouldn't they just clear to 2,900 and 3,900 respectively?

If you plot the DP and STARs on a sectional, I have found that many of them would either avoid the class B airspace, or run parallel to the main runways, or go directly over the class B airport. This makes sense, because the main objective is to keep arriving or departing traffic away from the final approach course. Here is an example of CRUXX arrival into KPTK in the Detroit area.

 

[mscard88]

Whenever I'm trying to get to the other side of ATL:

• when IFR, they vector me to either HEFIN or CINKA; depending on my route, I sometimes get to choose which out-of-the-way spot to visit, a mere 45nm or so away.
• when VFR, I'm usually told to "remain clear of the Bravo," although I have been told a few times to "stay out of the Bravo."
• going over isn't a real option, because unlike other busy Bravos, ATL goes from field elevation ~1100 msl to 12,500, and my O-360 doesn't like being asked to hit 13,500 eastbound (then there's that nagging 30-minute limit without oxygen).

Other places, you may find nice controllers who will share their airspace with you. But not around here, in the Friendly South . . . . .

P.S.--I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow.

Couldn't be that ATL is the busiest airport in the world eh?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Couldn't be that ATL is the busiest airport in the world eh?

You know, it's funny. Through the years, I've heard about how "unfriendly" some places are, but when I went there it all seemed good and routing made sense from a traffic standpoint.