If your wife disapproves your plane purchase...

In denying an appeal, James Fallon said that though Bower’s latest evidence “could conceivably have produced a different result at trial, it does not prove by clear and convincing evidence that [Bower] is actually innocent”
Doesn't prove his innocence. Good thing the gov never gets it wrong. The guy is either a total pyscho or unlucky. Oh well he couldn't prove his innocence so let's just call justice served.:rolleyes2:
 
"Bower said he tried to keep his planned purchase of the aircraft a secret from his wife because she would have disapproved."
 
Bold enough to shoot four guys in the head, but afraid of his wife. She must be a beast.
 
I am ok with in the death penalty, I would be ok if it were gone too. That said, I think the standard should be higher. Prosecutors should have the choice in cases that merit capital punishment. The standard would be easy. Beyond ANY doubt. You want to kill someone, fine, that is the standard. Don't want that high of a standard, rather have beyond reasonable doubt, you cant have the death penalty. Don't know anything about this case, but it sounds like he at least deserved another trial.
 
Texas has executed at least one innocent man, and it sound a lot like they have now made that two. I wouldn't trust any jury enough to bet a man's life.
 
steingar said:
Texas has executed at least one innocent man, and it sound a lot like they have now made that two.
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Have you read the appeals decision ?



To believe that he was innocent would require one to believe that a drug gang from Oklahoma killed 4 people who had no prior involvement in the drug trade and somehow coincidence caused the plane parts with the fingerprints of one of the victims to show up in Mr Bowers garage.
 
I have no issue with the death penalty. However, IF it is found out that someone who was innocent was wrongfully terminated, then any of the state employees involved in denying the appeal, administering the sentence, and the prosecution shall be executed in the same manner.

Put the judges and prosecutors on the hook.
 
steingar said:
Texas has executed at least one innocent man, and it sound a lot like they have now made that two. I wouldn't trust any jury enough to bet a man's life.
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Especially not a jury comprised only of Texans.

Though I was surprised that they executed a white guy for once.
 
weilke said:
Have you read the appeals decision ?


To believe that he was innocent would require one to believe that a drug gang from Oklahoma killed 4 people who had no prior involvement in the drug trade and somehow coincidence caused the plane parts with the fingerprints of one of the victims to show up in Mr Bowers garage.
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But that's not the legal standard for a conviction, now is it? Does the plane part with one of the victim's fingerprints on it prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? As far as circumstantial evidence cases go, this was a really flimsy one to begin with.
 
EdFred said:
I have no issue with the death penalty. However, IF it is found out that someone who was innocent was wrongfully terminated, then any of the state employees involved in denying the appeal, administering the sentence, and the prosecution shall be executed in the same manner.

Put the judges and prosecutors on the hook.
Click to expand...


:yes:
 
I have no problem with the theory of execution as a penalty. My problem is any human system of justice is imperfect and the execution does not allow a "do over" or reversal of judgement.
 
Flying Viking said:
But that's not the legal standard for a conviction, now is it? Does the plane part with one of the victim's fingerprints on it prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? As far as circumstantial evidence cases go, this was a really flimsy one to begin with.
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That's actually my thought. Part could have gotten there any number of ways, and if the deceased were all associates it could easily have picked up a fingerprint. No weapon, no witnesses, no DNA. The guy was a salesman with no priors. Sounds awfully flimsy to me.
 
If I can't sentence someone to the death penalty on the basis that they could be innocent, then I wouldn't have convicted them in the first place.
 
steingar said:
That's actually my thought. Part could have gotten there any number of ways, and if the deceased were all associates it could easily have picked up a fingerprint. No weapon, no witnesses, no DNA. The guy was a salesman with no priors. Sounds awfully flimsy to me.
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It sounds as though you know very little about the case. While I too know very little about the case, I know for sure that the linked article provides insufficient information to make a responsible determination of his innocence. The reality is that he was convicted and exhausted all of his appeals. I suspect that most of the truly guilty will convincingly state and/or actually do believe that they are innocent. Everyone has "no priors" the first time they're caught.

One of the arguments that I've heard against the death penalty is that for the guilty, rotting in prison is a worse punishment. If that's true, then what is the solution? There can always be some doubt introduced into a case, and although our legal system isn't 100% perfect, it is perhaps closer to being so than any other. I doubt that any judge or jury takes lightly conviction or sentencing, especially in a capital case. In this case, it apparently took more than three decades between the conviction and the execution of the sentence, which is hardly an impulsive punishment.


JKG
 
mikeinbama said:
I am ok with in the death penalty, I would be ok if it were gone too. That said, I think the standard should be higher. Prosecutors should have the choice in cases that merit capital punishment. The standard would be easy. Beyond ANY doubt. You want to kill someone, fine, that is the standard. Don't want that high of a standard, rather have beyond reasonable doubt, you cant have the death penalty. Don't know anything about this case, but it sounds like he at least deserved another trial.
Click to expand...

I agree. Some cases are both so open-and-shut, and so heinous, that IMHO the death penalty is the only acceptable penalty. That home invasion in CT for example, where they raped and murdered a young girl and her mother and left the father for dead? Nothing short of death (and IMHO an excruciatingly slow and painful one at that) would do justice.

One man's sometimes bloodthirsty opinion......:redface:
 
Problem always comes in the middle ground. Crime is horrible, and how certain are we? Remember, someone truly innocent is unlikely to cop to such a horrible crime just to save themselves from capital punishment. I'd sooner die than confess such a thing. Problem is such behavior is seen by judges and juries as lacking remorse, and is more likely to bring on capital punishment.

Get rid of it says I. Most western nations don't use is at all and probably have lower crime rates than we do.
 
Flying Viking said:
Though I was surprised that they executed a white guy for once.
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55% of persons executed post Furman are white. While the percentage of blacks is with 35% above the percentage in the population, those percentages are not much different from the racial makeup of state and federal prison populations.
 
flyersfan31 said:
I agree. Some cases are both so open-and-shut, and so heinous, that IMHO the death penalty is the only acceptable penalty. That home invasion in CT for example, where they raped and murdered a young girl and her mother and left the father for dead? Nothing short of death (and IMHO an excruciatingly slow and painful one at that) would do justice.
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I would be perfectly fine with commuting all sentences issued before 2005 to life without if we streamline the process for cases such as Komisarjevsky and Hayes.
Two weeks ago, there was a similar case in DC. Home invasion with the family held for ransom. Once the perpetrators had 40k in cash, they lit the familys 10 year old son on fire, beat everyone else to death and took off. 3 meals and a roof over your head is hardly a fitting punishment for that kind of behavior. Another one last week in Rockville,MD, retiree couple stabbed in their home by a neighbors adult son. Death penalty cases today are very different from some of the legacy cases. Usually there is DNA or electronic evidence that truly establishes 'beyond a reasonable doubt' the responsibility for the crimes.
 
Although, life in SuperMax is in many ways a fate worse than death.

Problem is, it costs me and my fellow taxpayers a lot of coin that I would rather have spent repaving roads.
 
weilke said:
55% of persons executed post Furman are white. While the percentage of blacks is with 35% above the percentage in the population, those percentages are not much different from the racial makeup of state and federal prison populations.
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In fairness, I was specifically making fun of Texas. Of the 276 people currently on death row there, 115 are black (42%) 77 are white (27%) and 79 are hispanic (28%).

According to the 2010 Census, Texas' population was 70.4% white and 11.8% black, while the overall prison population was 33% white, 32% black.
 
Flying Viking said:
Giving someone the death penalty costs taxpayers even more.
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.40 to the head costs about $0.50. Which is way, way, way less than it costs to feed someone for 20+ years.

And it's not more expensive because we are already paying the judges and prosecutors, et al that review the appeals. Whether they are on death row or not, that money is still being spent. So it only costs the injection.
 
EdFred said:
.40 to the head costs about $0.50. Which is way, way, way less than it costs to feed someone for 20+ years.

And it's not more expensive because we are already paying the judges and prosecutors, et al that review the appeals. Whether they are on death row or not, that money is still being spent. So it only costs the injection.
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The legal professionals have plenty to do without reviewing death penalty cases. Besides, your logic works the other way. The prison is there, the guards and cells are already there. They're already making food for these guys, so what does another cost?
 
steingar said:
The legal professionals have plenty to do without reviewing death penalty cases. Besides, your logic works the other way. The prison is there, the guards and cells are already there. They're already making food for these guys, so what does another cost?
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The cost of the food - which is more than $0.50

If you have 100 inmates, you buy enough food to make 100 meals. If you have 50, you buy enough to make 50. You don't buy 100 worth, and throw 50 out. Well, it's the government, so maybe they do.
 
Flying Viking said:
Giving someone the death penalty costs taxpayers even more.
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Only because we make it so.

When in 2011, Eric Robert,a lifer in the SD penitentiary killed a corrections officer during an escape attempt, it took less than a year between conviction and execution. He had his appeal to the state supreme court and that was it. There was no doubt about his guilt and continuing danger, why drag things out for 20 years ?

Contrast that to the case of Michael Ross in CT. There was also no doubt about his guilt in the 6 murders he had comitted and he had dropped further appeals. The state public defenders office still spent millions on 'saving' someone who did not want to be 'saved'. If we allow the judiciary system to artificially drive up the cost of those cases, we can't turn around and say that 'the death penalty is too expensive'.
 
weilke said:
When in 2011, Eric Robert,a lifer in the SD penitentiary killed a corrections officer during an escape attempt, it took less than a year between conviction and execution. He had his appeal to the state supreme court and that was it. There was no doubt about his guilt and continuing danger, why drag things out for 20 years?
Click to expand...

Incorrect. Robert waived his right to appeal his sentence. The SD Supreme Court issued a stay to complete the sentencing review that is mandated under SD law in all capital cases. Robert actually filed a petition with the Supreme Court seeking an expedited execution, arguing that the court could not order a stay since he did not appeal his sentence. That petition was denied, and the court completed the review before the execution.

weilke said:
Contrast that to the case of Michael Ross in CT. There was also no doubt about his guilt in the 6 murders he had comitted and he had dropped further appeals. The state public defenders office still spent millions on 'saving' someone who did not want to be 'saved'. If we allow the judiciary system to artificially drive up the cost of those cases, we can't turn around and say that 'the death penalty is too expensive'.
Click to expand...

Incorrect again. Ross hired new counsel after he decided not to further appeal his sentence. After Ross' father brought up the issue of whether Ross was mentally competent to waive his right to further appeals, the judge actually threatened the new counsel to pull his license to practice, unless he looked into the issue of competency. Faced with that threat the counsel filed a petitioned for a stay. The stay lasted from January until May when Ross was executed. I would like to see some evidence how that single mental evaluation and court review cost the state "millions."

Unless of course you just make **** up to support your position...
 
EdFred said:
The cost of the food - which is more than $0.50

If you have 100 inmates, you buy enough food to make 100 meals. If you have 50, you buy enough to make 50. You don't buy 100 worth, and throw 50 out. Well, it's the government, so maybe they do.
Click to expand...

The same logic holds true for death penalty cases. You have 10,000 hours worth of legal work, you hire prosecutors, public defenders etc. to fill those hours. Take away the death penalty cases you may only have 5,000 hours worth of work, and then...
 
Flying Viking said:
The same logic holds true for death penalty cases. You have 10,000 hours worth of legal work, you hire prosecutors, public defenders etc. to fill those hours. Take away the death penalty cases you may only have 5,000 hours worth of work, and then...
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Except the budget won't be cut at all, because rarely do government agencies ever voluntarily cut they budgets, so even if they aren't working dp cases all that will happen is they will take nice fat bonus checks, and the taxpayers will still be out the same amount of money. Nice try. Double fail.
 
EdFred said:
Except the budget won't be cut at all, because rarely do government agencies ever voluntarily cut they budgets, so even if they aren't working dp cases all that will happen is they will take nice fat bonus checks, and the taxpayers will still be out the same amount of money. Nice try. Double fail.
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Ah yes, the big bad gubmint argument that trumps everything. Including rational thought. Forgot about that. Carry on.
 
Flying Viking said:
Ah yes, the big bad gubmint argument that trumps everything. Including rational thought. Forgot about that. Carry on.
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Show me where government agencies voluntarily and routinely cut their budget, and your stance would hold water.

Except you can't show that. So your argument fall flat, and you resort to an ad hominem. Try again.
 
Flying Viking said:
Incorrect. Robert waived his right to appeal his sentence. The SD Supreme Court issued a stay to complete the sentencing review that is mandated under SD law in all capital cases. Robert actually filed a petition with the Supreme Court seeking an expedited execution, arguing that the court could not order a stay since he did not appeal his sentence. That petition was denied, and the court completed the review before the execution.
Click to expand...

So, and your point is ?

He was guilty. He had a trial. He was convicted. He had his statutory appeal and was executed. All between April 2011 and October 2012. The entire process cost less than a middle class divorce.

The stay lasted from January until May when Ross was executed. I would like to see some evidence how that single mental evaluation and court review cost the state "millions."
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The entire process and keeping him locked up for 18 years cost millions (I just helped them to spend the last couple of thousand).
He was convicted in '87, there was never a question about his guilt, he should have been dead by the end of '88.
 
weilke said:
So, and your point is ?

He was guilty. He had a trial. He was convicted. He had his statutory appeal and was executed. All between April 2011 and October 2012. The entire process cost less than a middle class divorce.
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My point is...he did not file an appeal! He waived his right to an appeal - of course that cuts down on the time. :mad2:

Here's how it typically works...after the death sentence, the convict appeals to the state appellate court (as a matter of right). If not reversed, he can appeal further to the state supreme court, which has the discretion to hear it (they must of course review the petition to decide whether to grant review).

Assuming that is also unsuccessful, the convict can file a petition for habeas corpus in federal district court to have his federal constitutional claims reviewed (as a matter of right). That judgment can in turn be appealed to the circuit court of appeals who again have the discretion to review. The case can finally be appealed to the US supreme court. This process takes about 12 years and involved a lot of materials. When I clerked for a federal district court, the files for our sole capital habeas case occupied an entire room, floor to ceiling. We called it the crypt...

weilke said:
The entire process and keeping him locked up for 18 years cost millions (I just helped them to spend the last couple of thousand).
He was convicted in '87, there was never a question about his guilt, he should have been dead by the end of '88.
Click to expand...

That is not how the system works. If it did, a lot of innocent people would have been executed.
 
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Flying Viking said:
My point is...he did not file an appeal! He waived his right to an appeal - of course that cuts down on the time. :mad2:
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He got an appeal anyway, simply because SD law requires it.


Here's how it typically works...
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I know all that. You are describing the jacked up process.

That is not how the system works. If it did, a lot of innocent people would have been executed.
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And so would be plenty of guilty people.

I believe that the same diligence should go into sending someone away for life as it is required for a death penalty case.
 
flyersfan31 said:
I agree. Some cases are both so open-and-shut, and so heinous, that IMHO the death penalty is the only acceptable penalty. That home invasion in CT for example, where they raped and murdered a young girl and her mother and left the father for dead? Nothing short of death (and IMHO an excruciatingly slow and painful one at that) would do justice.

One man's sometimes bloodthirsty opinion......:redface:
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There was a recent federal verdict and sentence in Boston that also qualifies.
 
Mason said:
There was a recent federal verdict and sentence in Boston that also qualifies.
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As the two criminals in upstate NY illustrate, there is a downside to 'life without parole'. Society would be much better off had both of them been executed for their crimes many years ago.
One killed a sheriffs deputy by shooting him and running him over with his car. When he wasn't dead enough, he shot him again.
The other one first murdered his boss by breaking his neck as part of a day-long kidnapping and later killed someone while on the run in Mexico. Prior to that he had spent time in prison for a rape and a stabbing.

Both are god knows where right now. I just hope they dont kill anyone else while on the run.
 
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