Jesse is 20 years old, has been flying for a bit over a year, and has 115 hours. Granted he lives in the snowbelt. This statement is made to provide some perspective.
Sorry Jesse. I felt full disclosure was in order here.
jangell said:
It takes a force to cause you to be "sideways" on ice. You do not just go sideways for no reason.
Well, duh.
You can control and prevent this force.
You can maybe control it. Depending on what it is. Like a crosswind. You can control it to the limits of what the airplane is capable of doing. Prevent the force?? LOL. Give me a break.
I couldn't really tell you in this situation what that force was because I was not there at the time.
But that is not going to prevent you from telling us what that particular pilot should have done.
If it was a crosswind that caused the force it could be prevented with sufficent aileron into the wind.
To the extent that the controls are able to compensate. Two things to mention here. If you aren't going very fast, the flight controls are virtually ineffective. The other is if the crosswind is very strong, no amount of control deflection is going to help. Yes, there is a band in there where you might get help from the flight controls, but if you are counting on it, it may or may not work.
This pilot did several takeoffs and landings this day and obviously the wind was not above the crosswind limit of the airplane.
Well, keep in mind that the maximum crosswind an airplane can handle is usually figured when the airplane is in flight. And is usually figured with an airspeed in the range of 45 to 65 knots, depending on the airplane. C-150 or 172 in this case. Normally, on the ground, you have the nosewheel to provide traction with the runway, so maximum crosswind can be higher when on the ground. But in the case of a sheet of ice, all bets are off. No data. Does not take much wind to cause huge problems.
Start taxing at a normal speed and then cut power. Lift your feet off of the rudder pedals or don't give them any pressure. Apply FULL LEFT AILERON (move your yoke/stick to the left) What happens? Your airplane is going to start turning to the right. The reason for this is when you apply left aileron your RIGHT aileron is down, this causes increased drag on the right side. This drag will turn your airplane to the right. A very useful thing on a windy day in a taildragger with brakes that get hot and become worthless rapidly.
What you are describing is Induced Drag. That drag that is produced as a result of lift. If I remember right, if speed doubles, induced drag increases by a factor of 4. I will grant you that in certian cases, it may be of help. But let me mention this. In the case of a crosswind, are you not supposed to be holding aileron full into the wind anyway? If you are doing a proper crosswind takeoff, since the ailerons are already full into the wind, they won't be of any more help if you start to slide.
Next up at get yourself into a decent taxi speed and pull the yoke to your chest? What happens? If this was a C150 you probably just smacked the tail agaisnt the ground.
If so, you are taxiing way too fast. Besides, how is that going to help you if you start to drift?
If it was a C172 I bet you just felt the airplane tilt backwards QUITE a bit.
You contend that a 172 does not have the elevator force necessary to smack the ground like the 150. You said so in another post. You are probably correct when you are solo or with one other passenger. But load it to gross with pax and baggage, and the 172 is fully capable of doing what you say it can't.
Basically what I'm telling you here is there was a lack of flight controls used to attempt to recover control.
Remember what I said above? You weren't there. You do not
KNOW that.
Scenario. You taxi into position on the icy runway. There is a crosswind. You apply the proper crosswind corrections, apply full power and off you go. Shortly into the run, the wind is blowing you sideways on the ice. You already have full aileron deflection, so that isn't going to help. You already have full power, so THAT isn't going to help. You WILL have pretty good rudder authority, but when you correct back to centerline, that will just make the situation worse. As an average pilot, what would you do? You are about out of tricks.
The pilot cut the power, which reduced the airflow over the rudder, he then attempted to stop it using brakes. This is a pretty huge mistake because of the small tires on a C172 and the lack of traction. He didn't use the airplanes OTHER way to control itself which is not effected by the ice. It's called the air.
Again, Jesse, you dont know what he did. You weren't there. I am sure looking back this pilot isn't even sure WHAT he did. You are making some pretty brash statements considering your "vast" experience levels. Also, keep in mind some of these things happen pretty fast. Things can be all over in a blink of an eye.
In aviation if there is an accident. Someone screwed up. It's just the way it is.
Yes, it is. And my big beef with you, Jesse, is that you know exactly what he did, and know exactly what he should have done to prevent it. That is BS. Jesse, and frankly, I am getting pretty tired of it.
Am I saying I'm perfect? Nope. I've screwed up before too. ^$@# happens.
Jeez, Jesse, from the tone of your posts, I would have bet that you WERE perfect and had NEVER screwed up before.
