Ice equipment necessary for middle altitude flying?

[flyingcheesehead]

I don't think it's a misrepresentation at all.

There was no mention by the NTSB or the media that the pilot was in the right seat, nor was it mentioned in the widow's lawsuit against the pilot's estate. Surely I would have recalled hearing that; it would be hugely irresponsible to put a non-pilot passenger in the left seat of a high performance turbine single that was climbing to the flight levels in IMC with an active AIRMET and the pilot's family on board. Was this a fact, or a rumor in the TBM community? Besides, NTSB investigators found the system switches in the on position.

They talk about this accident a lot in initial and recurrent at Simcom. That's where it came from. I can't find anything stating where anyone was sitting, but I have no reason to disbelieve them.

BTW, that new NTSB database query ("CAROL") sucks big time. Can't get the various narratives any more - You get a PDF of the short final report and that's it. Junk, IMO. Much less useful than the old search.

And yes, hugely irresponsible.

Finally, I looked at a picture of the de-ice panel. The one thing that really stuck out to me is that the inertial separator was off, leading me to believe he flipped it off in desperate search of more power to climb.

I also believe I recall the NTSB saying the pilot had misoperated the anti-icing system by repeatedly cycling it manually instead of allowing that function to occur in the automatic mode. This kept the ice buildup on the boots from forming a homogeneous mass with the ice behind them, and as a result when the boots were popped, the separately formed wing ice continued to grow. The AFM cautions against flying in conditions of rapid buildup because this condition may occur regardless of the cycling method used.

Haven't seen or heard anything about that.

In any case, while I can agree that the post itself, taken without context, is not a misrepresentation, when you read it in the context of the thread it insinuates that even a turbine-powered, FIKI aircraft can't climb through ice, so why bother? That is what I think is misrepresented. If you can afford the maintenance, FIKI is a great thing to have.

 

[3393RP]

They talk about this accident a lot in initial and recurrent at Simcom. That's where it came from. I can't find anything stating where anyone was sitting, but I have no reason to disbelieve them.

I certainly would, because there isn't a single indication in any official document, news story, or aviation periodical that says the left seat was occupied by someone other than the pilot. It beggars belief that someone without any aviation experience whatsoever would be in the left seat, and I'm surprised you give the claim any credence. It's a rumor that has found traction at Simcom and nowhere else.

As I said above, I don't know why the pilot thought climbing above the ice would save the day, because the airplane had accumulated so much ice while transiting the icing that even if he had exited the clouds, it was going to stall and crash anyway. The airspeed and rate of climb was telling that story for several minutes, and his statement to ATC that “we’ll let you know what happens when we get in there and if we could go straight through, it’s no problem for us” was a clear indication the pilot believed the TBM was impervious to icing conditions. He believed that for six and a half minutes. The NTSB said the cause of the accident was “the airplane’s encounter with unforecasted severe icing conditions that were characterized by high ice accretion rates and the pilot’s failure to use his command authority to depart the icing conditions in an expeditious manner, which resulted in a loss of airplane control.”

 

[PaulS]

I sold my Cirrus and I’m back to renting Cessnas. There is an outfit here with 4 Mustangs on a rental program. I flew this one yesterday.

View attachment 91647

How much does that cost to rent? And do they let you take it with out an instructor (properly rated and proficient of course)?

 

[MauleSkinner]

I certainly would, because there isn't a single indication in any official document, news story, or aviation periodical that says the left seat was occupied by someone other than the pilot. It beggars belief that someone without any aviation experience whatsoever would be in the left seat, and I'm surprised you give the claim any credence. It's a rumor that has found traction at Simcom and nowhere else.

It’s one of the “grownup” versions of the telephone game...somebody mixes up what they hear, and suddenly it becomes what was actually said.

 

[RudyP]

How much does that cost to rent? And do they let you take it with out an instructor (properly rated and proficient of course)?

$1350 /hr dry rental rate. Yes, solo rental as long as you have the PIC type rating and meet the insurance experience requirements.

 

[DavidWhite]

Ditto for a piston twin (and for some turbine singles, like the Caravan), for that matter, except for brief transitions through IMC to clear conditions. AFAIK, there's no sub-transport-sized civilian piston twin out that that is safe for prolonged exposure to supercooled large-droplet icing. Maybe moderate rime or a bit of light mixed for a while...

AFAIK, theres never been a civilian airplane designed to fly in SLD, and any amount of ice that forms behind the protected areas of the wing (as is common with SLD) qualifies as severe icing.

I’ve flown a few different incantations of caravan in ice that would make the NASA flight test folks blush. Cessna should have hung 1200hp on the front of it out of the gate and they would have had a fine plane. A caravan loaded to icing weight (8550) with the 675 has less hp/lb than a late model 172s loaded to the utility category (2200).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I certainly would, because there isn't a single indication in any official document, news story, or aviation periodical that says the left seat was occupied by someone other than the pilot. It beggars belief that someone without any aviation experience whatsoever would be in the left seat, and I'm surprised you give the claim any credence.

Find me a source that says anything about where anyone was sitting. I haven't found such a thing. And people put their friends in the left seat all the time. I don't, but I've been the beneficiary of such actions...

 

[PaulS]

Find me a source that says anything about where anyone was sitting. I haven't found such a thing. And people put their friends in the left seat all the time. I don't, but I've been the beneficiary of such actions...

I wouldn't jump in the left seat of an unfamiliar airplane unless I had a qualified CFI in the right. But that's just me.

 

[3393RP]

Find me a source that says anything about where anyone was sitting. I haven't found such a thing. And people put their friends in the left seat all the time. I don't, but I've been the beneficiary of such actions...

Did you happen to notice you were put in the left seat because you are a licensed pilot?

The fact a source hasn't been found regarding who was sitting where is exactly what makes your assertion invalid. Do you really think the NTSB wouldn't have mentioned in their report that a non-pilot was in the left seat of a pressurized turboprop that crashed after encountering icing and killed five people?

If there's no source that mentions it, how did someone at Simcom find out about it? From a guy that knew a tow truck driver that was on the scene before first responders?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The fact a source hasn't been found regarding who was sitting where is exactly what makes your assertion invalid. Do you really think the NTSB wouldn't have mentioned in their report that a non-pilot was in the left seat of a pressurized turboprop that crashed after encountering icing and killed five people?

Part of the reason I haven't found such a source is that NTSB just royally screwed up their web site, and I can't find the old-school detailed narrative any more. This "CAROL" thing they did is a steaming pile of crap.

If there's no source that mentions it, how did someone at Simcom find out about it? From a guy that knew a tow truck driver that was on the scene before first responders?

This was a landmark accident in the TBM community, and one that both Simcom and Daher were involved in the investigation (because the pilot had just completed recurrent at Simcom). So yes, I would expect that they would know more than the NTSB report states.