ICAO Flight Plans, Filing ZFR, YFR - Benefits?

[Martymccasland]

I noticed Foreflight allows for ICAO flight plans now. Details described here:
http://cloudfront.foreflight.com/docs/ff/6.0/v6.0 - filing with foreflight mobile.pdf

I fly a lowly Bonanza, am not reaching the FLs, much less the RVSM areas. So other than the ability to cancel/edit already filed plans, is there any reason/benefit for me filing an ICAO plan for domestic US flights?

I thought not but then I read on ZFR and YFR flight plans. ZFR being a flight initially being VFR then going IFR. YFR being the opposite.

Has anyone used ZFR or YFR flight plans? What's the benefit over something like departing VFR and picking up a clearance in the air (in the case of ZFR) or departing IFR then canceling or doing VFR On-Top (in the case of YFR)?

 

[MarkZ]

You don't have to file an ICAO flight plan unless you are leaving the US ADIZ. I'm not sure you have to file ICAO for North America either. Someone else who's done it can probably tell you better.

If you are staying in the CONUS, you can file the old fashioned way.

 

[flyingron]

You don't have to file an ICAO flight plan unless you are leaving the US ADIZ. I'm not sure you have to file ICAO for North America either.

Actually, NO. The ADIZ has nothing to do with it. You can still file a domestic DVFR flight plan for the ADIZ (barring any of the other situations that apply).

ICAO is required for:

The flight will enter international airspace, including oceanic airspace controlled by FAA facilities.
The flight expects routing or separation based on Performance Based Navigation (PBN), e.g. RNAV 1.
The flight will enter RVSM airspace.
The flight expects services based on ADS-B.

It's optional other times.

 

[MarkZ]

Thanks Ron!

 

[deeruck]

I fly a lowly Bonanza, am not reaching the FLs, much less the RVSM areas. So other than the ability to cancel/edit already filed plans, is there any reason/benefit for me filing an ICAO plan for domestic US flights?

The wording on Foreflight's website is a little confusing, but I believe that you can cancel/edit an FAA Domestic flight plan, as long as you haven't filed through DUATS. Try removing your CSC DUATS credentials from the app, and any subsequent filed plans have the option to Amend or Cancel.

 

[JoeSelch]

Actually, NO. The ADIZ has nothing to do with it. You can still file a domestic DVFR flight plan for the ADIZ (barring any of the other situations that apply).

ICAO is required for:

The flight will enter international airspace, including oceanic airspace controlled by FAA facilities.
The flight expects routing or separation based on Performance Based Navigation (PBN), e.g. RNAV 1.
The flight will enter RVSM airspace.
The flight expects services based on ADS-B.

It's optional other times.

Isn't it entering international airspace by crossing an ADIZ or something like that?

For example, an ICAO flight plan is not required for a VFR flight that departs a CONUS airport, overflies Canada, and terminates in the CONUS ... No ADIZ crossing.

 

[Martymccasland]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I removed my DUATS info in Foreflight and see flight plans go through Lockheed Martin, and are editable.

However, back to the ZFR and YFR plans. Has anyone filed one? What are the benefits/reasoning to do so?

I read thinking it was only an international type plan, but have found nothing yet that says so. Just curious what situation exists where ZFR/YFR plans are the preferred plan of action? i.e. I think of filing IFR, departing VFR, and just opening the IFR plan in the air as the way things are done -- but there's apparently a "YFR" flight plan type for that purpose.... And I certainly don't recall ever learning about YFR/ZFR plans years ago when I did my IR.

Why would you specifically want to use a ZFR/YFR plan? Why do they exist?

 

[flyingron]

Isn't it entering international airspace by crossing an ADIZ or something like that?

Nope, you can enter international or oceanic airspace without crossing the ADIZ and you can enter the ADIZ without entering oceanic or international airspace.
The guidance means what it says and ADIZ has squat to do with it.

You need an ICAO plan for Canada now (even for overflights). The canucks want this now so they can be sure to have the right billing info.

 

[Velocity173]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I removed my DUATS info in Foreflight and see flight plans go through Lockheed Martin, and are editable.

However, back to the ZFR and YFR plans. Has anyone filed one? What are the benefits/reasoning to do so?

I read thinking it was only an international type plan, but have found nothing yet that says so. Just curious what situation exists where ZFR/YFR plans are the preferred plan of action? i.e. I think of filing IFR, departing VFR, and just opening the IFR plan in the air as the way things are done -- but there's apparently a "YFR" flight plan type for that purpose.... And I certainly don't recall ever learning about YFR/ZFR plans years ago when I did my IR.

Why would you specifically want to use a ZFR/YFR plan? Why do they exist?

Can't recall a civilian aircraft ever filing a composite flight plan. Really not sure of any benefit. Military, on the other hand do it all the time. A lot of times they go IFR to the warning area, go VFR and when they're done doing they're thing, come back IFR. Same goes for VFR MTRs

 

[flyingron]

Might be useful for SFRA/FRZ exit and entry if the silly FAA was set up to deal with that.

 

[JoeSelch]

Nope, you can enter international or oceanic airspace without crossing the ADIZ and you can enter the ADIZ without entering oceanic or international airspace.
The guidance means what it says and ADIZ has squat to do with it.

You need an ICAO plan for Canada now (even for overflights). The canucks want this now so they can be sure to have the right billing info.

Interesting.
I asked about this a little more than a year ago and nobody had an answer.
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57806

I see that the FAA link in that thread has updated info, including the bulleted list you quoted earlier.

 

[azure]

Nope, you can enter international or oceanic airspace without crossing the ADIZ and you can enter the ADIZ without entering oceanic or international airspace.
The guidance means what it says and ADIZ has squat to do with it.

You need an ICAO plan for Canada now (even for overflights). The canucks want this now so they can be sure to have the right billing info.

They want to bill you now just for going through the airspace, even if you dom't talk to their controllers? When I flew straight across London en route to NY a couple of years ago, I even talked to Toronto Center, and later Toronto Approach, but didn't get a bill. At the time I was told that they did not bill you unless you used their tower or ground services, something overflights obviously don't do. So it seems that something has changed in a major way.

 

[flyingron]

They want to bill you now just for going through the airspace, even if you dom't talk to their controllers? When I flew straight across London en route to NY a couple of years ago, I even talked to Toronto Center, and later Toronto Approach, but didn't get a bill. At the time I was told that they did not bill you unless you used their tower or ground services, something overflights obviously don't do. So it seems that something has changed in a major way.

Things are different than "a couple of years ago."

You can't fly through their airspace without talking to some controller (though it's possible it might be a US controller).

 

[azure]

Things are different than "a couple of years ago."

You can't fly through their airspace without talking to some controller (though it's possible it might be a US controller).

For most of the overflights that I do, it's almost always a US controller.

So when exactly did things change? I did an overflight en route to KCMH last fall on a domestic IFR flight plan.

 

[JoeSelch]

For most of the overflights that I do, it's almost always a US controller.

So when exactly did things change? I did an overflight en route to KCMH last fall on a domestic IFR flight plan.

Yes, please do tell!

I've made four VFR overflights in the last month and several more within the past year. Still no bill - even for the times I've been on with Toronto Center (Centre?).

 

[flyingron]

Yes, please do tell!

I've made four VFR overflights in the last month and several more within the past year. Still no bill - even for the times I've been on with Toronto Center (Centre?).

I might be wrong, but the AOPA Canada page certainly intimates that it is happening.

 

[azure]

I might be wrong, but the AOPA Canada page certainly intimates that it is happening.

Could be, but there is nothing about that (yet?) on the US AOPA site. Here is what they have to say about overflying Canada:

Overflights that originate and end in the United States require that the pilot must file a flight plan, and Canadian regulations must be observed when flying in Canadian airspace. Write “Canada overflight” in the remarks section of the flight plan.

Note: The Canadian government now charges U.S.-registered aircraft for ATC services based on the aircraft certified gross weight. The current fee as of March 2009 is $17.00 CAN per quarter for aircraft under 2 metric tons (4,410 lb gross) and $56.75 for aircraft between 2 and 3 metric tons (up to 6,614 lb gross). See the NavCanada Web site for details for aircraft in higher weight classes. Also, weight-based fees for use of the airport terminal may apply at some airports.

eAPIS is not required for overflights.

Sounds like it hasn't been updated since 2009... so if there have been recent changes to policy, someone should alert them.

I wasn't able to get the COPA page to load... probably a network issue.

 

[frcabot]

LOL, so no one actually answered the initial question re YFR or ZFR flight plans. I was curious myself. If one files YFR and then cancels the IFR portion, will the VFR portion of the YFR flight plan be activated automatically? Does the FSS even have this capability? What about with ZFR plans? Are those actually even transmitted to ATC or do they just remain with FSS?

 

[frcabot]

I think I found the answer: http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/fss/AppendixA.htm

"Flight Rules

ENTER one of the following letters to denote the category of flight rules with which the pilot intends to comply:

I if it is intended that the entire flight will be operated under IFR.

V if it is intended that the entire flight will be operated under VFR.

Y if the flight initially will be operated under IFR, followed by one or more changes of flight rules.

Z if the flight initially will be operated under VFR, followed by one or more changes of flight rules.

NOTE�
U.S. domestic automation systems cannot accept a flight plan that begins under VFR and subsequently changes to one or more flight rules (that is, Z). For this purpose, file separate flight plans for the portions of the route that the pilot intends to conduct under IFR.

Specify in Item 15 the point or points where change of flight rules is planned."

So it seems that you can file YFR, but if you file ZFR the flight plan will not be transmitted to ATC. Instead, you will need to file a separate IFR portion.

On a YFR flight plan, it appears that in the Route section, you enter the point where the cross-over occurs.

E.g. [vor] IFR or [vor] VFR if the changeover point is occurring there.


"Change of flight rules (maximum 3 characters)

The point at which the change of flight rules is planned, expressed exactly as in (2) or (3) above as appropriate, followed by a space and one of the following:

VFR if from IFR to VFR

IFR if from VFR to IFR

EXAMPLES�
LN VFR
LN/N0284A050 IFR

NOTE�
U.S. domestic automation systems cannot accept flight plans that begin VFR and change to IFR. For this purpose, file a separate flight plan for the IFR portion of the flight."
_____

I filed a YFR flight plan for a flight tomorrow so I'll report back. The route portion of my fpl looks like this:

NIMI3 ECA/N0155A150 VFR DCT BIH DCT BTY DCT DYSSS DCT NV65 DCT JOKUS

 

[Velocity173]

Still begs the question, what's the point of a composite for GA? As I said, military has a need because of the missions they do. For GA, just file IFR or VFR. Simple.

 

[Dr. O]

I fly through Canadian airspace often - two methods

File IFR and talk to the nice person on the radio
This is really the easiest and the way I do it mostly
I don't bother with filing an ICAO as I am under control of ATC as I pass through Canada.
Assuming good weather I cancel IFR as soon as I reenter the USA - or not.
IFR is relaxed flying as ATC works hard to keep a bubble of clean air around me.

 

[azure]

I fly through Canadian airspace often - two methods

File IFR and talk to the nice person on the radio
This is really the easiest and the way I do it mostly
I don't bother with filing an ICAO as I am under control of ATC as I pass through Canada.
Assuming good weather I cancel IFR as soon as I reenter the USA - or not.
IFR is relaxed flying as ATC works hard to keep a bubble of clean air around me.

Ditto... I don't cancel on re-entering US airspace though. As you say, IFR is relaxed flying. When the field is made, then I cancel.

Also, been well into Canadian airspace several times this summer shuttling between MI and VT, and talked to Toronto Center several times. I've never been told I needed to file ICAO, and never got a bill either. Knock on wood.

 

[frcabot]

Still begs the question, what's the point of a composite for GA? As I said, military has a need because of the missions they do. For GA, just file IFR or VFR. Simple.

Congested airspace but field is ifr. So file ifr to first way point and then vfr so can go direct and don't need to be vectored around and following airways. Simple.

 

[Velocity173]

Congested airspace but field is ifr. So file ifr to first way point and then vfr so can go direct and don't need to be vectored around and following airways. Simple.

You can easily cancel IFR have them amend your altitude to VFR and remain that freq for FF. This goes back to the old disscusion of using ATC for FF vs filing a VFR flight plan.

 

[frcabot]

You can easily cancel IFR have them amend your altitude to VFR and remain that freq for FF. This goes back to the old disscusion of using ATC for FF vs filing a VFR flight plan.

The only guarantee that Sar will be initiated is activated vfr flight plan or ifr flight plan. Flight following won't necessarily activate SAR. Plus, if you're flying in an area of limited radar coverage (e.g mountainous areas) you can't get ff over there anyways.

 

[Velocity173]

The only guarantee that Sar will be initiated is activated vfr flight plan or ifr flight plan. Flight following won't necessarily activate SAR. Plus, if you're flying in an area of limited radar coverage (e.g mountainous areas) you can't get ff over there anyways.

Sure if you're in limited radar coverage and are concerned about SAR, then you might want to have a VFR on file. Personally I'd just stay IFR if I was that concerned about SAR.

Either way my point was that there are plenty of cases where military operate either on a composite (VR route) or IFR restricted to VMC (MOA) out of necessity. A composite could add flexibility to some GA ops but by no means a requirement.

 

[frcabot]

ANYWAYS, what happened with the YFR flight plan is that FSS (maybe through automated system) canceled the flight plan and filed two separate plans: an ifr plan (to first waypoint) and then a VFR plan from the departure airport to the destination. The VFR plan had to be activated separately in the normal way (i.e., a link if using the AFSS website, or a call to FSS).

 

[petrolero]

The ICAO fpl seems to have been designed for maximum confusion and obtuseness. Truly assinine IMHO. I have looked into it a few times and have yet to figure it out and I see very little benefit until such time as I am ADS-B out equipped and/or intend to fly PBN.

No one has yet explained to me why services based on ADS-B are desireable. I ask instructors about ICAO fpl and they shrug and say file FAA unless I'm leaving the US. mkay. Useless.

Composite is something I don't do either. I've never found a compelling need for it in actual flying and also it is a royal PITA.