IBTL

Everskyward said:
Yup, we removed SZ from view when we closed it. But I would not have called it "part of the front porch". It was in the basement, hidden from view. To set the record straight, it was not visible to the general public, so it was not what attracted members here. You had to both join and opt in to see it.
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Ahh but see that's where you're wrong. It certainly was something that attracted me to the place, when I went looking for aviation themed boards... not because of the content, but because it's *existence* showed a distinct respect for members...

It acknowledged that the world really does have politics, while being cordoned off from the main area.

It showed a very thoughtful bunch of adults was in charge who valued ALL discussion, but knew folks needed to kinda keep politics, religion, real world stuff, behind a door where you had to hit a button that said, "yes I'm an adult" before entering.

It recognized and provided a space for a portion of the pilot community that does discuss politics.

Enjoying the content only came after reading a while and figuring out who could debate and who was just a blowhard in there. But there was some damned good content.

Lots of message boards I've been on have them, and manage them just fine. Shooting boards, electronics boards, all sorts of places have them. Many even leave them public but you post politics in their political forum, and in there alone.

This is the only place I've ever seen that not only closed something like that, but removed all evidence that it existed and removed all the posts.

It was a slap to the face to people who took that button that said "I'm an adult" seriously, that the problem children who didn't, couldn't be dealt with separately. Many pilots do actually enjoy that stuff.

I don't think the a-political quite get the disrespect for those people it showed, to simply close it and delete it. So they don't see it as the act of being NON-inclusive to those people that it was. The claims it was an effort at inclusivity, therefore, have never made any sense.

But we all know that. If push comes to shove, the answer really is, "We didn't want THOSE pilots. They can do that somewhere else." That's as non-inclusive a statement as one can possibly ever make. "Go away."
 
denverpilot said:
Ahh but see that's where you're wrong. It certainly was something that attracted me to the place, when I went looking for aviation themed boards... not because of the content, but because it's *existence* showed a distinct respect for members...
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You are probably an outlier if you join an aviation board in order to talk politics. I also think you have the wrong idea about what the mods at the time thought about it. I remember it being public for a short time, until there were enough complaints. Then they hid it, and it became more of an unfriendly space because the members knew it was basically unmoderated.
 
Nate, can you change your screen name to tldrpilot?
Just kidding man; you sure are eloquent!
 
Everskyward said:
You are probably an outlier if you join an aviation board in order to talk politics. I also think you have the wrong idea about what the mods at the time thought about it. I remember it being public for a short time, until there were enough complaints. Then they hid it, and it became more of an unfriendly space because the members knew it was basically unmoderated.
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But you can't say it was basically unmoderated when one of the reasons behind closing it was that moderating it had become too difficult.

That's what I've been saying - there was no logical reason to close it, so everything that was used as a reason was either fabricated or overstated.

It would have been easier and more accurate to simply say "we closed it because we are moving to a more heavily moderated era, and the spin zone conflicts with our new direction."
 
Everskyward said:
You are probably an outlier if you join an aviation board in order to talk politics.
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Is this an aviation board, or a board for aviators. The difference is substantial.

I've met many aviators. We don't confine discussion to vSpeeds, avionics, tire pressures, and the like. Other pilot's views on politics are of interest. Most stuff about GA airports, LSA, medical requirements and the like are by nature political. Can't avoid it.

In it's purest form an aviation board cannot discuss Movies, Restaurants, Places of interest, Cars, Careers... the list goes on.
 
SkyHog said:
But you can't say it was basically unmoderated when one of the reasons behind closing it was that moderating it had become too difficult.

That's what I've been saying - there was no logical reason to close it, so everything that was used as a reason was either fabricated or overstated.

It would have been easier and more accurate to simply say "we closed it because we are moving to a more heavily moderated era, and the spin zone conflicts with our new direction."
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Basically, when we moved to the new software we unanimously decided that we didn't want to continue supporting it. Different mods may have had their own reasons for voting that way.
 
Ravioli said:
Is this an aviation board, or a board for aviators. The difference is substantial.

I've met many aviators. We don't confine discussion to vSpeeds, avionics, tire pressures, and the like. Other pilot's views on politics are of interest. Most stuff about GA airports, LSA, medical requirements and the like are by nature political. Can't avoid it.

In it's purest form an aviation board cannot discuss Movies, Restaurants, Places of interest, Cars, Careers... the list goes on.
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If you read the header on Hangar Talk is says:

Hangar Talk
Open forum for discussion of any topic you like, aviation related or otherwise.

Virtually all topics in this forum are permitted - so long as they are discussed in a civil manner.

NOTE: Politics and religion and any other topic likely to become highly charged are not allowed, and threads may be deleted or closed if they start or trend, respectively, towards "spin" topics.
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The emphasis here is on "highly charged". There are many social and religious issues that might be included, but politics seems to be the one that crops up most often. As I have mentioned before, we do not have a zero tolerance attitude and we don't warn people for thoughtful posts on these subjects. But these topics do tend to spin out of control. Everyone here has seen that, I'm sure.
 
Wow. I read this thread and I think I'm over on Fakebook where people have continually whined about the outcome of the election and the things that happened in the last administration. With all due respect to the folks involved, the whining isn't particularly convincing just as it isn't with regard to the election.

FWIW, when I was a moderator here I was the biggest proponent of keeping the Spin Zone open and unmoderated. Until I wasn't. I don't recall exactly what it was, but after getting whacked by both sides for a long time, I realized it was a lose-lose. That was around the time I stepped down (but was not the reason I stepped down). The decision was in the hands of the MC, but I would have voted to shut it down after 10 years of being in support. I no longer had the time or patience or tolerance.

Just for history, when the board was created the forum was moderated, especially as it related to personal attacks. That's never changed. Spin Zone got separated out a bit and Chuck asked me to become a moderator of Spin Zone only. A short time later, I was elevated to MC. And Spin Zone was isolated enough that it was no longer indexed by search engines while the rest of PoA was. One of our MC members stepped down over what I would call a "moderation issue".

The MC can't please everybody because, like the country, we have a number of polarized opinions here (and I mean more than low wing/high wing). I think the folks that are currently on the MC are doing a good job. But I don't envy them at all.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't think applying rules of social decorum when in public is being "two faced".
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Hmm maybe bad choice of phrase, since it evokes a sense of lying to the other person. I don't play that game anymore. Gave it up a long time ago.
 
@Everskyward I was responding to your statement "You are probably an outlier if you join an aviation board in order to talk politics." and asked the clear question: Is this an Aviation Board, or a Board for Aviators.

If we need some spin topics we can do High-Wing/Low-wing, Piper/Cessna, Single or Twin, Fixed-Pitch or Constant Speed. They all spin like crazy.

My point, which I apparently didn't make clearly, is that it is interesting how other people with a common interest (aviation) view other things in the world. Else we would only need an encyclopedia and the FAA publications. How much fun would that be?
 
Ravioli said:
@Everskyward I was responding to your statement "You are probably an outlier if you join an aviation board in order to talk politics." and asked the clear question: Is this an Aviation Board, or a Board for Aviators.

If we need some spin topics we can do High-Wing/Low-wing, Piper/Cessna, Single or Twin, Fixed-Pitch or Constant Speed. They all spin like crazy.

My point, which I apparently didn't make clearly, is that it is interesting how other people with a common interest (aviation) view other things in the world. Else we would only need an encyclopedia and the FAA publications. How much fun would that be?
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I'm not sure what you're complaint is. We obviously allow other topics. But this board is mostly an aviation board. I don't see why someone would join specifically to talk about music, or movies, or politics.
 
wsuffa said:
Wow. I read this thread and I think I'm over on Fakebook where people have continually whined about the outcome of the election and the things that happened in the last administration. With all due respect to the folks involved, the whining isn't particularly convincing just as it isn't with regard to the election.

FWIW, when I was a moderator here I was the biggest proponent of keeping the Spin Zone open and unmoderated. Until I wasn't. I don't recall exactly what it was, but after getting whacked by both sides for a long time, I realized it was a lose-lose. That was around the time I stepped down (but was not the reason I stepped down). The decision was in the hands of the MC, but I would have voted to shut it down after 10 years of being in support. I no longer had the time or patience or tolerance.

Just for history, when the board was created the forum was moderated, especially as it related to personal attacks. That's never changed. Spin Zone got separated out a bit and Chuck asked me to become a moderator of Spin Zone only. A short time later, I was elevated to MC. And Spin Zone was isolated enough that it was no longer indexed by search engines while the rest of PoA was. One of our MC members stepped down over what I would call a "moderation issue".

The MC can't please everybody because, like the country, we have a number of polarized opinions here (and I mean more than low wing/high wing). I think the folks that are currently on the MC are doing a good job. But I don't envy them at all.
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You mean you're not coming back? :frown:
 
My observation, not complaint, is that people are joining a group with a common interest (aviation). Not a place of only one interest (aviation). And when you say "We obviously allow other topics" you left out the rest of the sentence "but not others".

Again, rules are rules and I get that.
 
What a bunch of whining! It's really simple- www.pilotspin.com You just keep two tabs open in your browser. Check in here to see what people are talking about with regards to airplanes and civilized subjects and then click over there and check out the swamp.

Super easy to do. Even a pilot can do it.
 
If you're going to say this:
Ravioli said:
Again, rules are rules and I get that.
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Why do you continue to whine like this?
Ravioli said:
My observation, not complaint, is that people are joining a group with a common interest (aviation). Not a place of only one interest (aviation). And when you say "We obviously allow other topics" you left out the rest of the sentence "but not others".
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denverpilot said:
SZ. Couldn't look up a post there and give an example of a good discussion there if I wanted to. It was not retained as an archive or otherwise, even as historical record of what the place was.
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I must be getting long in the tooth, but I can. Especially the isdues surrounding the start the Iraq invasion, the financial crisis, the origins of the ACA, a lot of issues. Mr. Stanley, Bruce Chien, Steingar, Jeff DG, Scott Migaldi to name a few participants, of which I am no doubt omitting many. The political waterfront was covered from right to left. Yes, heated times, but always civil discourse, good debate. I miss those discussions, if I'm to be honest.

It was good while it lasted.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
I must be getting long in the tooth, but I can. Especially the isdues surrounding the start the Iraq invasion, the financial crisis, the origins of the ACA, a lot of issues. Mr. Stanley, Bruce Chien, Steingar, Jeff DG, Scott Migaldi to name a few participants, of which I am no doubt omitting many. The political waterfront was covered from right to left. Yes, heated times, but always civil discourse, good debate. I miss those discussions, if I'm to be honest.

It was good while it lasted.
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Of the people you mentioned, I don't believe that a single one left because the SZ was eliminated. I know why a couple of others left, and it's not related to eliminating SZ.
 
wsuffa said:
Of the people you mentioned, I don't believe that a single one left because the SZ was eliminated. I know why a couple of others left, and it's not related to eliminating SZ.
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JeffDG left because the SZ was eliminated, and possibly Steingar. The others weren't posting in the SZ any more. I think in the early days it was easier because people knew each other. But the SZ was pretty much taken over by bullies who liked to throw political bombs. I participated for a while but the signal to noise ratio became too much for me. I quit participating almost entirely when I knew it was going away.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
If you're going to say this:

Why do you continue to whine like this?
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It's not a whine, it's an attempt to get Mari to see her bias and acknowledge it.

Perhaps her view of the world is that people with a particular interest (aviation) don't go to forums and other places to talk about their common interest AND other interests, as a way to get to know other pilots or be social.

They only come for the aviation.

And that's not really correct for a LOT of people and a LOT of online forums.

I'm on a forum for, of all things, wood burning stoves. People come there to talk about woodburning stoves, but they also talk about everything else under the sun with other wood burning stove owners.

Even, gasp... politics!

PoA once said: "We are open to all aviators to discuss all topics. No personal attacks."

Now PoA says: We are open to all aviators to discuss all topics, UNLESS you have an interest in politics. If you want to discuss that, go away."

It's interesting to talk about all facets of life with your peer group. Politics included. The ones doing the personal attacks should have been flat out banned, no doubt.

But the ones who weren't should have still been welcome to discuss over in their little hidden corner of shame... haha...

Is that what we should have called it? The "Shame on you, you discuss politics in public" corner? LOL.
 
denverpilot said:
It's not a whine, it's an attempt to get Mari to see her bias and acknowledge it.

Perhaps her view of the world is that people with a particular interest (aviation) don't go to forums and other places to talk about their common interest AND other interests, as a way to get to know other pilots or be social.

They only come for the aviation.
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Where did I ever say that? I said that people don't usually join aviation forums to talk about politics.
 
wsuffa said:
Of the people you mentioned, I don't believe that a single one left because the SZ was eliminated. I know why a couple of others left, and it's not related to eliminating SZ.
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That may very well be the case, but that wasn't what I was responding to. Denver said he couldn't think of a single instance of a good discussion. I disagree, in fact Bill, unless I'm sorely mistaken you participated in quite a few.
 
Everskyward said:
Where did I ever say that? I said that people don't usually join aviation forums to talk about politics.
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Correct. Nobody did. They talked politics because the forum was inclusive of all Aviatiors and all topics.

Nobody joins an aviation forum to discuss cole
slaw either, but it seems well tolerated. Even scrolled past and ignored by a great many, I'm sure.
 
Everskyward said:
JeffDG left because the SZ was eliminated, and possibly Steingar. The others weren't posting in the SZ any more. I think in the early days it was easier because people knew each other. But the SZ was pretty much taken over by bullies who liked to throw political bombs. I participated for a while but the signal to noise ratio became too much for me. I quit participating almost entirely when I knew it was going away.
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I thought JeffDG left earlier, but I may well be mistaken. I believe Steingar left for other reasons unrelated to SZ.

Chip Sylverne said:
That may very well be the case, but that wasn't what I was responding to. Denver said he couldn't think of a single instance of a good discussion. I disagree, in fact Bill, unless I'm sorely mistaken you participated in quite a few.
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.

Yeah, at one point there were decent discussions, but it reached the point where it just got ugly and there were a lot of ad hominem attacks. I backed away and finally left SZ altogether. In an lightly or unmoderated forum, the participants make or break it. Smart folks realize at some point that their words on the internet live forever - most will not be as lucky as our new President where they can still achieve their goals in spite of the words.... Many, if not most, will find their words to come back and haunt them. Each of us change with time and most of us learn as we go along - even if we disavow something we said years ago, it's still out there waiting to be discovered.

It's not the moderator's job to protect people from their own words, but the board and forum get reputations of their own, too. In the end, the forum reached the point where I saw it more as a liability to PoA than an asset....
 
SoonerAviator said:
My .02:

I would prefer the "neighborhood covenant" version rather than the "HOA" version. It's a bit of a minor distinction, but it's definitely a real-life example of why I will NEVER live in a neighborhood with an HOA (no offense to those who do, for whatever reason).'

The covenant prevents people from doing things that are overtly-detrimental to their neighbors (building a 1,200sq ft house in a neighborhood full of 2,500sq ft houses), which is an easily justified injury. The HOA-approach seeks to dictate what fence style you have, what paint color you use, or whether your landscaping is overgrown.

I would prefer the moderation be less about the subject matter, and more about the specific conduct (injury) between thread participants. Unfortunately, it's a much more difficult thing to moderate because perception is involved more than pure "you broke the politics-ban rule 8, section c of the POA (HOA) by laws."

At least with the spin zone, which I never participated in, it kept that area mostly contained and it only occasionally spilled into the regular forums.

Take that for what it's worth.
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Like I said, I don't (and won't ever) live in a house with an HOA either. It's a different aspect of my life and I'm interested in different rules. I like the fact that I can have 3 tractors parked in my front yard, in various stages of torn apart, and not have anyone complain. Don't feel like mowing the lawn? No problem. The neighbors have about 5-10 acres they don't mow.

We have covenants on PoA, if you want to use that analogy. In fact, they're pretty clearly posted in the forums (specifically what's allowed in Hangar Talk). I'll agree that there's some ambiguity as to where the lines are drawn, but the problem is people just don't follow them. If they did (and believe me, the mods wish everyone did) then you'd see less moderation.

I think it's pretty funny to see so many people complaining about how heavy handed the moderation here is, yet we've got a 3 page thread (that I'm sure will go on longer) that has been discussing the moderation and history of PoA which hasn't been closed, and frankly I don't see a need to so long as it stays civil. If the MC were truly heavy handed and interested in "censorship" then you would see this thread closed and deleted.

Calling the deletion and removal of posts "censorship" is humorous, too. This is an internet forum where we're trying to maintain a particular atmosphere. Going back to the neighborhood analogy - if there's a burned out car on the street, what do you do? Leave it or get rid of it? Most people will get rid of it.
 
Ones mans junk is another mans treasure.... Just sayin'


Ted DuPuis said:
Going back to the neighborhood analogy - if there's a burned out car on the street, what do you do? Leave it or get rid of it? Most people will get rid of it.
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Unit74 said:
Ones mans junk is another mans treasure.... Just sayin'
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Sure, and out here I might keep a burned out car for a shooting target. But when we lived on a residential street? Nope.
 
I think a couple hours in the air and at the controls would dilute the tensions nicely. And that is about as deeply as I choose to participate in conversations like this one. Heck, I haven't even dug deep enough time figure out what IBTL. I know what IBTC is, and that's all I have to say about that!!!

Old man out.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Sure, and out here I might keep a burned out car for a shooting target. But when we lived on a residential street? Nope.
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Leveled the nifty old downtown hangout, burnt all the neat old scrolls in the basement, kicked out all the writers that hung out in the basement, and replaced it with a nice strip mall, some tract housing in a nice safe taupe.

I think the analogy works pretty well. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
Leveled the nifty old downtown hangout, burnt all the neat old scrolls in the basement, kicked out all the writers that hung out in the basement, and replaced it with a nice strip mall, some tract housing in a nice safe taupe.

I think the analogy works pretty well. ;)
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"They paved paradise to put up a parking lot".
 
Everskyward said:
I don't see why someone would join specifically to talk about music, or movies, or politics.
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Because the board is more than just a place to talk. It's a place to meet up with a virtual group of people to which you feel a sense of belonging. This is the part you're missing: I actually LIKE some of the posters, as people. When I gave up flying, my feelings for people didn't just vanish. But I lost interest in talking about flying all the time, and I'm one who likes to talk about politics, so there you have it: I'm a person who would join specifically to talk about politics, because I'd rather talk with my old friends than go find a new cyber group. I've been around since 1999 on the old AOPA board. Your point applies to new strangers, but many of us are not that.

That being said I don't participate in back and forth debate anymore, because it became a time sink and I'd get nothing else done. But once in a while I enjoy reading a political thread and once in a while I'll drop in my opinion.
 
Rushie said:
Because the board is more than just a place to talk. It's a place to meet up with a virtual group of people to which you feel a sense of belonging. This is the part you're missing: I actually LIKE some of the posters, as people. When I gave up flying, my feelings for people didn't just vanish. But I lost interest in talking about flying all the time, and I'm one who likes to talk about politics, so there you have it: I'm a person who would join specifically to talk about politics, because I'd rather talk with my old friends than go find a new cyber group. I've been around since 1999 on the old AOPA board. Your point applies to new strangers, but many of us are not that.

That being said I don't participate in back and forth debate anymore, because it became a time sink and I'd get nothing else done. But once in a while I enjoy reading a political thread and once in a while I'll drop in my opinion.
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I don't think you'll find a single long-time member who doesn't say first and foremost that we have a great community here. I met my wife on this forum (by the way, she stopped participating because she got sick of the BS in the forum) and most of my best friends today I've met on here. Look at the threads I've started and participate in and most of them are not related to airplanes. That said, I joined here almost 10 years ago because I was looking for a place to talk airplanes and meet other pilots. It then evolved. Everskyward is one of my friends who I met on here, we used to chat most nights in FlashChat (along with another group of 10 or so of us). I'm not aware of anyone who wants to get rid of Hangar Talk, and I agree it's one of the best aspects of PoA. Spin Zone? Nope, it was not. Some people disagree, that's fine. Regardless, it's gone and it's not coming back.

I do think one of the big things that we're missing now is the chat room (used to be FlashChat, evolved to something else, and now is closed). That was where a lot of my friendships on the board were forged. However, I also know that I wouldn't participate much these days, if any (family life has changed my evening schedule).
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Like I said, I don't (and won't ever) live in a house with an HOA either. It's a different aspect of my life and I'm interested in different rules. I like the fact that I can have 3 tractors parked in my front yard, in various stages of torn apart, and not have anyone complain. Don't feel like mowing the lawn? No problem. The neighbors have about 5-10 acres they don't mow.

We have covenants on PoA, if you want to use that analogy. In fact, they're pretty clearly posted in the forums (specifically what's allowed in Hangar Talk). I'll agree that there's some ambiguity as to where the lines are drawn, but the problem is people just don't follow them. If they did (and believe me, the mods wish everyone did) then you'd see less moderation.

I think it's pretty funny to see so many people complaining about how heavy handed the moderation here is, yet we've got a 3 page thread (that I'm sure will go on longer) that has been discussing the moderation and history of PoA which hasn't been closed, and frankly I don't see a need to so long as it stays civil. If the MC were truly heavy handed and interested in "censorship" then you would see this thread closed and deleted.

Calling the deletion and removal of posts "censorship" is humorous, too. This is an internet forum where we're trying to maintain a particular atmosphere. Going back to the neighborhood analogy - if there's a burned out car on the street, what do you do? Leave it or get rid of it? Most people will get rid of it.
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Just for the record, I never commented good or bad about the level of moderation, just implied that some of the rules are a bit ambiguous in their enforcement at times. I will say, that banning politics that get heated is a pretty difficult task when "Hangar Talk" basically encompasses all manner of subjects which often have heavy political impact. Since the government intervenes in such varied areas like aircraft certification, building codes, and everything else in between, it can be difficult to keep politics out of the Hangar Talk area because it seems to often tie-in to just about everything. I don't personally recall a lot of the spill over from the SZ into the regular forum, but I'm sure it happened. I guess it just depends on whether you feel the SZ kept most of the vitriol contained to the "you asked to be here" section of the site, or if it appears to be the same result without it.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Just for the record, I never commented good or bad about the level of moderation, just implied that some of the rules are a bit ambiguous in their enforcement at times. I will say, that banning politics that get heated is a pretty difficult task when "Hangar Talk" basically encompasses all manner of subjects which often have heavy political impact. Since the government intervenes in such varied areas like aircraft certification, building codes, and everything else in between, it can be difficult to keep politics out of the Hangar Talk area because it seems to often tie-in to just about everything. I don't personally recall a lot of the spill over from the SZ into the regular forum, but I'm sure it happened. I guess it just depends on whether you feel the SZ kept most of the vitriol contained to the "you asked to be here" section of the site, or if it appears to be the same result without it.
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And to be clear, I wasn't saying that you commented on good or bad levels of moderation - I was more using the reply to your post to make a few other points and clarify some of my previous ones. Sorry if it seemed like I was specifically commenting to you.
 
One thing I've heard is that people think the MC is tolerant of personal attacks, misogyny, etc. but not tolerant of various other items which are viewed as less severe. My response is that no, we aren't tolerant of personal attacks or misogynistic posts at all. However, we don't read every single post on the forum. The MC is made up of members who like being here too, so we read the threads that interest us.

If you see a personal attack (or are personally attacked), report it. I haven't seen any bad post get reported twice, so assuming someone else will or assuming that a MC member will read it is not correct.
 
wsuffa said:
It's not the moderator's job to protect people from their own words, but the board and forum get reputations of their own, too. In the end, the forum reached the point where I saw it more as a liability to PoA than an asset....
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And... 104 posts in, we arrive at the root of the matter. Would have been nice if the MC just said that the SZ was killed because they worried about their own reps.
 
Wow I sure don't envy being a part of the MC.

I'm glad you guys do it and put up with this... I'm not sure I could do it on a volunteer basis.
 
paflyer said:
And... 104 posts in, we arrive at the root of the matter. Would have been nice if the MC just said that the SZ was killed because they worried about their own reps.
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You can think whatever you want, but I'll say that that reason didn't even enter my mind.
 
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