I wonder if hanger fairies...

[2Airtime2]

pull cylinders, hone, re-ring, and do valve jobs? Do some replace pistons, rings, and cylinders with new?

Sometimes you see toh's at a few hundred hours and sometimes you see a 3500 hr engine still going strong with great compression numbers. I'm just wondering if the fairies got to the high time engines and left a note to the owner. He knows but the log book doesn't.

 

[EdFred]

pull cylinders, hone, re-ring, and do valve jobs? Do some replace pistons, rings, and cylinders with new?

Sometimes you see toh's at a few hundred hours and sometimes you see a 3500 hr engine still going strong with great compression numbers. I'm just wondering if the fairies got to the high time engines and left a note to the owner. He knows but the log book doesn't.

Depends. I replaced the cylinders on mine, but everything "downstairs" looks amazing.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Depends. I replaced the cylinders on mine, but everything "downstairs" looks amazing.

That's what she said

 

[EdFred]

That's what she said

You're obviously talking to the wrong people.

 

[Dan Thomas]

pull cylinders, hone, re-ring, and do valve jobs? Do some replace pistons, rings, and cylinders with new?

Sometimes you see toh's at a few hundred hours and sometimes you see a 3500 hr engine still going strong with great compression numbers. I'm just wondering if the fairies got to the high time engines and left a note to the owner. He knows but the log book doesn't.

Most of the difference has to do with how the engine is operated. If it goes for very occasional short flights, it will suffer internal corrosion that destroys everything. If it's run for longer flights every day, it stays dry inside.

 

[Henning]

pull cylinders, hone, re-ring, and do valve jobs? Do some replace pistons, rings, and cylinders with new?

Sometimes you see toh's at a few hundred hours and sometimes you see a 3500 hr engine still going strong with great compression numbers. I'm just wondering if the fairies got to the high time engines and left a note to the owner. He knows but the log book doesn't.

Yes, but that does not preclude the engines lasting that long either with proper and diligent operations, especially with consideration to maintaining proper mixture, and operating frequently.

 

[flyingron]

 

[GlennAB1]

Need a "like" button.

 

[timwinters]

O.P.

Your answer may lie in how much calendar time was on that engine that was topped in a few hundred hours...and how much was on the one with 3500 hours and still going strong.

Most people, when listing a plane for sale, don't tell you when the engine was last overhauled, rather just how many flight hours are on it.

An 18 year-old engine with a few hundred hours on it likely needs a top...or a major...while a 6 year-old engine with 1500 hours on it likely not. And that's all heavily dependent upon the climate in which the plane resided.

 

[2Airtime2]

O.P.

Your answer may lie in how much calendar time was on that engine that was topped in a few hundred hours...and how much was on the one with 3500 hours and still going strong.

Most people, when listing a plane for sale, don't tell you when the engine was last overhauled, rather just how many flight hours are on it.

An 18 year-old engine with a few hundred hours on it likely needs a top...or a major...while a 6 year-old engine with 1500 hours on it likely not. And that's all heavily dependent upon the climate in which the plane resided.

The answers I was looking for, I guess, would be two part. You answered the 1st part with your last paragraph, thanks. A few ads do tell the date of the OH and when you divide the time into it you might come up with 12 hrs per yr over the last 25 yrs (can't be good).

2nd part of the answer I was looking for: First let me say this is completely hypothetical, I don't own a plane...yet.

I will just bluntly ask.

What are the repercussions of me pulling my own certified engine, pulling the cylinders for inspection (after compression check), cracking the case open, micing the camshaft and crank, and popping the crank bearing caps off to lay a strip of plastigauge in there to check wear. What would stop me from taking the crank to my local machine shop (or sending off to an aircraft shop) to get the crank cleaned up and they supply me with the appropriate bearings? Same question for the cam.

These engines we are talking about are 60+ yr old technology. It seems absolutely insane to me to spend $25k on a rebuild. This is simple stuff.

I have experience rebuilding street engines but a family member is the expert. He has experience with perfectly balanced race engines that easily turn 3x the rpm's these Lycoming/Continentals do.

$950 doesn't seem t o o o o o bad for a cylinder/piston/valves/etc assm. but almost $4000 for certain ones? Really? It's just chunks of metal. My buddy could build them from scratch for that (probably with closer tolerances).

almost end of rant

If I rebuild my own certified engine and it runs for 35 yrs (I'll be dead by then) what is the harm?

If I'm willing to fly behind my self built engine why does the FAA care? If the gov't would spend more time looking in the mirror rather than trying to protect us from ourselves we'd be much better off. Let pilots do their own thing (to certified) and stipulate no passengers for the 1st 100 hrs, 200 hrs, whatever.

Can y'all (southern term) tell I don't like people telling me what I can do to my own stuff?

 

[Clark1961]

I will just bluntly ask.

What are the repercussions of me pulling my own certified engine, pulling the cylinders for inspection (after compression check), cracking the case open, micing the camshaft and crank, and popping the crank bearing caps off to lay a strip of plastigauge in there to check wear. What would stop me from taking the crank to my local machine shop (or sending off to an aircraft shop) to get the crank cleaned up and they supply me with the appropriate bearings? Same question for the cam.

These engines we are talking about are 60+ yr old technology. It seems absolutely insane to me to spend $25k on a rebuild. This is simple stuff.

I have experience rebuilding street engines but a family member is the expert. He has experience with perfectly balanced race engines that easily turn 3x the rpm's these Lycoming/Continentals do.

$950 doesn't seem t o o o o o bad for a cylinder/piston/valves/etc assm. but almost $4000 for certain ones? Really? It's just chunks of metal. My buddy could build them from scratch for that (probably with closer tolerances).

almost end of rant

If I rebuild my own certified engine and it runs for 35 yrs (I'll be dead by then) what is the harm?

If I'm willing to fly behind my self built engine why does the FAA care? If the gov't would spend more time looking in the mirror rather than trying to protect us from ourselves we'd be much better off. Let pilots do their own thing (to certified) and stipulate no passengers for the 1st 100 hrs, 200 hrs, whatever.

Can y'all (southern term) tell I don't like people telling me what I can do to my own stuff?

Repercussions? If the FAA finds out the airworthiness cert probably would be pulled until the certified aircraft is brought into compliance. I think they don't actually take the cert but they tag the aircraft as un-airworthy. If your insurance company finds out then it probably would cancel the policy and you might have difficulty (pay $$$$) for any future policy. If the mechanic doing the annual inspection finds out then they couldn't sign the aircraft off as airworthy. I have no idea about whether or not the FAA would pursue civil penalties in this type of situation.

The way to rebuild your own engine and stay in compliance with certification requirements is to work with a certified mechanic to sign off your work.

But if you don't like being told what to do with your property and you want to fly then you probably should be looking at the experimental world.

 

[2Airtime2]

Repercussions? If the FAA finds out the airworthiness cert probably would be pulled until the certified aircraft is brought into compliance. I think they don't actually take the cert but they tag the aircraft as un-airworthy. If your insurance company finds out then it probably would cancel the policy and you might have difficulty (pay $$$$) for any future policy. If the mechanic doing the annual inspection finds out then they couldn't sign the aircraft off as airworthy. I have no idea about whether or not the FAA would pursue civil penalties in this type of situation.

The way to rebuild your own engine and stay in compliance with certification requirements is to work with a certified mechanic to sign off your work.

But if you don't like being told what to do with your property and you want to fly then you probably should be looking at the experimental world.

This is pretty much what I'm learning.

Can't find a 3-4 place experimental for the price I want to pay. Looks like it's time to start delivering lunch to some hangers and find a new friend.

Learning about pro re-builds (of the re-builds that are going to fail) do so usually within the first 100 hrs is not very re-assuring. Hence my obsession with doing my own work. I trust myself more than anyone else in this world.

When I purchase I will do my best to get something that will require major engine work later vs. sooner. Looks like that is going to be a slightly higher time engine but is still being flown regularly vs. one that is 300 hrs SMOH done 25 yrs ago.

Why would you own a plane that you fly only 12 hrs per yr? Dumb.

 

[Timbeck2]

..."almost end of rant"...



I wonder if anyone has ever compared parts for certified aircraft vs parts for other things. By "compared" I mean actually find proof that the certified part is superior to the non-certified part. Do these parts come off the same lines at the same factory? I bet they do since Timken for example sells wheel bearings for a wide range of vehicles. I've read on this and other forums for example wheel bearings and alternator belts are the same but one has FAA or another number written/stamped on it while the other does not. The FAA certified is up to 5 times the cost as the non-FAA certified part. We need an Ed Snowden for aviation stuff.

 

[ifly4fun]

..."almost end of rant"...



I wonder if anyone has ever compared parts for certified aircraft vs parts for other things. By "compared" I mean actually find proof that the certified part is superior to the non-certified part. Do these parts come off the same lines at the same factory? I bet they do since Timken for example sells wheel bearings for a wide range of vehicles. I've read on this and other forums for example wheel bearings and alternator belts are the same but one has FAA or another number written/stamped on it while the other does not. The FAA certified is up to 5 times the cost as the non-FAA certified part. We need an Ed Snowden for aviation stuff.

Funny, I just went through this exact part at Annual. Whoever previously worked on my bearings used the standard Auto-grade Timken wheel bearing. Same part number as the PMA bearing, just missing the FAA numbers on the end. The IA immediately knew they were not PMA bearings just at a quick glance by the color, apparently the PMA bearings are hardened and are much darker, almost black. Dunno if this is true or not, but they did appear different to me.

 

[MotoFlier]

I don't think you will save as much as you think doing it all yourself. The majority of the cost is in the way overpriced parts that you will need to purchase no matter who is turning the wrench. The labor is the only cost savings you're going to get but seeing as once you do this you just scrapped your airplane you are actually way worse off. But hey you showed them right LOL.

Same question I continue to ask in all these threads you make.

WHY NOT GET YOU'RE A&P CERTIFICATE??????

 

[Tom-D]

..."almost end of rant"...



I wonder if anyone has ever compared parts for certified aircraft vs parts for other things. By "compared" I mean actually find proof that the certified part is superior to the non-certified part. Do these parts come off the same lines at the same factory? I bet they do since Timken for example sells wheel bearings for a wide range of vehicles. I've read on this and other forums for example wheel bearings and alternator belts are the same but one has FAA or another number written/stamped on it while the other does not. The FAA certified is up to 5 times the cost as the non-FAA certified part. We need an Ed Snowden for aviation stuff.

Cessna's 150 and 172 came from the factory with KOYO wheel bearings, they were POS, the Timken Made in the US were far superior, but illegal.

 

[2Airtime2]

But hey you showed them right LOL.

What part of hypothetical don't you get? I'm asking to gain knowledge. Does anyone know of a place to gain aviation knowledge without getting scolded? 68 posts per month, you must have a lot of knowledge to share.

Same question I continue to ask in all these threads you make.

WHY NOT GET YOU'RE A&P CERTIFICATE??????

Because it doesn't pay enough.

Next question.


Getting back to certified parts vs. not.

Mechanical (hvac) code requires UL Listed duct tape. That stuff is maybe $24 per roll. Same thing (probably made side by side just without the print) is $5 per roll. Gotta love gov't intervention.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I will just bluntly ask.

What are the repercussions of me pulling my own certified engine, pulling the cylinders for inspection (after compression check), cracking the case open, micing the camshaft and crank, and popping the crank bearing caps off to lay a strip of plastigauge in there to check wear. What would stop me from taking the crank to my local machine shop (or sending off to an aircraft shop) to get the crank cleaned up and they supply me with the appropriate bearings? Same question for the cam.

Assuming a type certificated aircraft...

If you have "supervision" of an A&P who signs the logbook there are no repercussions at all. Do it as a major overhaul and you reset the TSMO clock. BTDT. C-85 in a Cessna 120.

If you do it on the sly, then you don't have any record of the work so no potential improvement in the aircraft value, plus if your AI figures out what you have done, there will be issues getting an annual signed off.

$950 doesn't seem t o o o o o bad for a cylinder/piston/valves/etc assm. but almost $4000 for certain ones? Really?

Low volume production combined with high volume paperwork.

If I rebuild my own certified engine and it runs for 35 yrs (I'll be dead by then) what is the harm?

If I'm willing to fly behind my self built engine why does the FAA care?

Rules keep us safe. Paperwork keeps us safe. The FAA's job is to make sure the rules are followed and the paperwork is in order. And to make sure that happens the FAA has an entire army of minions in the form of AIs, AMEs, and CFIs to assist.

Now, if you had the sense to buy an E-AB aircraft, you can do the overhaul without the A&P supervision (BTDT too - O-290 in a T-18) and fly for years and years and the FAA is more than happy with that because the rules allow it.

 

[Tom-D]

If I'm willing to fly behind my self built engine why does the FAA care? If the gov't would spend more time looking in the mirror rather than trying to protect us from ourselves we'd be much better off. Let pilots do their own thing (to certified) and stipulate no passengers for the 1st 100 hrs, 200 hrs, whatever.

The FAA does not care what you build and fly. thus the Amateur built class.
The do care what you build and hold out to the public as safe to fly, thus the paper work.
The US drug admin. does the same thing, no one seems to care that the drugs on the market are a 1000 times more expensive than the chemicals that are required to make them. It is the testing and the litigation insurance that makes the prices what they are.

 

[JHW]

...Paperwork keeps us safe..

far too broad of a statement

 

[2Airtime2]

So flying's not cheap?


:wink2:

 

[MotoFlier]

What part of hypothetical don't you get? I'm asking to gain knowledge. Does anyone know of a place to gain aviation knowledge without getting scolded? 68 posts per month, you must have a lot of knowledge to share.

You mad bro?

You stopped being hypothetical at post #10 and I'm sorry if my post came off as scolding that certainly was not my intent, I was shooting more for sarcastic smart ass. As I said in your other thread, I agree that it sucks.

I keep bringing up the A&P because You mentioned that you enjoy working on your own stuff. Not saying it needs to be your 9-5 but there would probably be some excellent opportunities to make some good side cash. Not to mention being able to do all your own work.

 

[2Airtime2]

You mad bro?

You a millinnial bro?

I was shooting more for sarcastic smart ass.

In that case you are forgiven, I can't be mad at people with a like personality. :wink2: I'll befriend an A&P, I can be a hell of a nice guy when I hide my true identity.

 

[GlennAB1]

WHY NOT GET YOU'RE A&P CERTIFICATE??????

Took the words right out of my mouth... that goes for every owner!

 

[GlennAB1]

So flying's not cheap?
:wink2:

My brother is a retired USAF Colonel, Test Pilot. He always wanted his own aircraft but conceded that the cost just wasn't worth it.

 

[N801BH]

pull cylinders, hone, re-ring, and do valve jobs? Do some replace pistons, rings, and cylinders with new?

Sometimes you see toh's at a few hundred hours and sometimes you see a 3500 hr engine still going strong with great compression numbers. I'm just wondering if the fairies got to the high time engines and left a note to the owner. He knows but the log book doesn't.

I an a recovering professional engine builder from an earlier life...

On my first plane, 75 Warrior. I had my good friend and trusted A&P /AI and fellow racer present when I rebuilt and assembled my 0-320 using all new parts, ( pistons, pins, valves, rings, bearings, mags, harness, oil pump, etc etc.... He signed off the rebuild and even test flew it during the first break in flight, altho I was sitting in the right seat watching the gauges.. These motors are silly simple and anyone with decent sense can rebuild one with their eyes closed... IMHO...

 

[GlennAB1]

Because it doesn't pay enough.

Can't complain, I make more than the average for Doctorate Degree in the US, more than a USAF Colonel... with my high school diploma and A&P.

The savings from being able do do it yourself should be more than enough reason.

And it would give you less to ***** about.

 

[GlennAB1]

Mechanical (hvac) code requires UL Listed duct tape. That stuff is maybe $24 per roll. Same thing (probably made side by side just without the print) is $5 per roll. Gotta love gov't intervention.

I don't know, does UL testing and certification have the same requirements?

 

[Henning]

The answers I was looking for, I guess, would be two part. You answered the 1st part with your last paragraph, thanks. A few ads do tell the date of the OH and when you divide the time into it you might come up with 12 hrs per yr over the last 25 yrs (can't be good).

2nd part of the answer I was looking for: First let me say this is completely hypothetical, I don't own a plane...yet.

I will just bluntly ask.

What are the repercussions of me pulling my own certified engine, pulling the cylinders for inspection (after compression check), cracking the case open, micing the camshaft and crank, and popping the crank bearing caps off to lay a strip of plastigauge in there to check wear. What would stop me from taking the crank to my local machine shop (or sending off to an aircraft shop) to get the crank cleaned up and they supply me with the appropriate bearings? Same question for the cam.

These engines we are talking about are 60+ yr old technology. It seems absolutely insane to me to spend $25k on a rebuild. This is simple stuff.

I have experience rebuilding street engines but a family member is the expert. He has experience with perfectly balanced race engines that easily turn 3x the rpm's these Lycoming/Continentals do.

$950 doesn't seem t o o o o o bad for a cylinder/piston/valves/etc assm. but almost $4000 for certain ones? Really? It's just chunks of metal. My buddy could build them from scratch for that (probably with closer tolerances).

almost end of rant

If I rebuild my own certified engine and it runs for 35 yrs (I'll be dead by then) what is the harm?

If I'm willing to fly behind my self built engine why does the FAA care? If the gov't would spend more time looking in the mirror rather than trying to protect us from ourselves we'd be much better off. Let pilots do their own thing (to certified) and stipulate no passengers for the 1st 100 hrs, 200 hrs, whatever.

Can y'all (southern term) tell I don't like people telling me what I can do to my own stuff?

You can do all of your own labor, you just have to do it under the supervision of an A&P so they will sign it back into service. Machine work is done by some common shops everyone sends off to, same for cranks and other hard parts. Your local machine shop may or may not touch your certified aircraft stuff, and you would have to supply them the manuals. Plus your local machine shop probably doesn't have the fixtures and jigs for dealing with aircraft engines, so any savings you might see will probably get eaten up in set up charges. Best to send the machine work and hard parts to the shops that specialize in them, their charges are not out of line. These are very basic engines, and if you follow the manual procedures it's a pretty simple and straight forward assembly. Typically it's not difficult to find an A&P willing to work with you as long as you seem competent and conscienscious about your work. That goes for your whole airplane maintenance program as well. People complain that the rules don't let them work on their plane, but it's not true. Normally a box of donuts or a 12 pack of beer can pay for a look over and sign off.

 

[2Airtime2]

I an a recovering professional engine builder from an earlier life...

These motors are silly simple and anyone with decent sense can rebuild one with their eyes closed... IMHO...

Wait, what? It's not rocket surgery? I agree. About the only thing simpler is a Briggs and Stratton.

 

[2Airtime2]

Can't complain, I make more than the average for Doctorate Degree in the US, more than a USAF Colonel... with my high school diploma and A&P.

Just yesterday my wife and I were talking about a similar subject. If you don't count the lazy's and only consider the workforce, 4 yr degree people seem to make the least. The higher earners are motivated hs grads with a trade and masters/doctorate holders.

The savings from being able do do it yourself should be more than enough reason. How long does it take a person, that can read something one time and have it, to get the A&P?

And it would give you less to ***** about.

That might be a deal breaker, I enjoy it so much.

 

[timwinters]

Funny, I just went through this exact part at Annual. Whoever previously worked on my bearings used the standard Auto-grade Timken wheel bearing. Same part number as the PMA bearing, just missing the FAA numbers on the end. The IA immediately knew they were not PMA bearings just at a quick glance by the color, apparently the PMA bearings are hardened and are much darker, almost black. Dunno if this is true or not, but they did appear different to me.

You need to find a new A&P...one with smaller boat payments. My A&P uses off the shelf automotive wheel bearings in my plane. You don't need some "specially hardened and darker" wheel bearings in an airplane.

Think about it...

The amount of time my truck wheel bearings spin is measured in hours per day.

The amount of time my airplane wheel bearings spin is measured in minutes (if not seconds) per week.

And the plane's bearings are loaded at maybe 30% of the weight.

And I need special hardened bearings in my plane?

There's a place for properly certified parts...like in engines. And there's a place to use common sense. Your A&P seems to be lacking the common sense part.

 

[ifly4fun]

You need to find a new A&P...one with smaller boat payments. My A&P uses off the shelf automotive wheel bearings in my plane. You don't need some "specially hardened and darker" wheel bearings in an airplane.

Think about it...

The amount of time my truck wheel bearings spin is measured in hours per day.

The amount of time my airplane wheel bearings spin is measured in minutes (if not seconds) per week.

And the plane's bearings are loaded at maybe 30% of the weight.

And I need special hardened bearings in my plane?

There's a place for properly certified parts...like in engines. And there's a place to use common sense. Your A&P seems to be lacking the common sense part.

So you suggest using non-PMA parts on your plane is perfectly acceptable? Where do you draw the line? Do you get your oil at walmart? FRAM filters? Tractor supply for tires/tubes?

While I agree, he was expensive, he didn't make anything on the bearings as I replaced them myself and I also purchased them online and not through him.

Maybe they don't need to be hardened, but thats what the PMA version is so someone in the FAA decided.. not my A&P.

 

[N801BH]

So you suggest using non-PMA parts on your plane is perfectly acceptable? Where do you draw the line? Do you get your oil at walmart? FRAM filters? Tractor supply for tires/tubes?

While I agree, he was expensive, he didn't make anything on the bearings as I replaced them myself and I also purchased them online and not through him.

Maybe they don't need to be hardened, but thats what the PMA version is so someone in the FAA decided.. not my A&P.

Experimentals are looking better EVERY day..........

 

[Henning]

So you suggest using non-PMA parts on your plane is perfectly acceptable? Where do you draw the line? Do you get your oil at walmart? FRAM filters? Tractor supply for tires/tubes?

While I agree, he was expensive, he didn't make anything on the bearings as I replaced them myself and I also purchased them online and not through him.

Maybe they don't need to be hardened, but thats what the PMA version is so someone in the FAA decided.. not my A&P.

The hardness thing is BS, there is no difference in the bearings, only the paper trail. Also, it is perfectly legal and acceptable for an owner to produce parts under Pt.43.

 

[timwinters]

So you suggest using non-PMA parts on your plane is perfectly acceptable? Where do you draw the line? Do you get your oil at walmart? FRAM filters? Tractor supply for tires/tubes?

While I agree, he was expensive, he didn't make anything on the bearings as I replaced them myself and I also purchased them online and not through him.

Maybe they don't need to be hardened, but thats what the PMA version is so someone in the FAA decided.. not my A&P.

All the A&Ps in this area*** (save one) have the attitude of "I'm going to keep your aircraft perfectly safe...maybe, maybe not quite legal, but not stupidly illegal...I will use common sense."

I like those guys. They keep me perfectly safe. And if a good A&P doesn't have an issue with it, I certainly don't.

If the A&Ps in your area aren't like that then I pity your checkbook.

***In fact, almost every A&P I've met and used across the midwest and south share this attitude. Thank God.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

So you suggest using non-PMA parts on your plane is perfectly acceptable?

My airplane? Yup.

Where do you draw the line?

When it is an issue of performance and/or safety

Do you get your oil at walmart?

I don't shop at Walmart. I buy things at Meijer, local hardware stores, or auto parts store if I can get something with adequate functionality.

FRAM filters?

No.

Tractor supply for tires/tubes?

If they had tires / tubes that fit, then, yea. Why not?

Of course, the laws of physics are different when your aircraft is certificated under the E-AB category. So, what is safe for me might not be safe for you.

 

[coloradobluesky]

I do have some guiding principals:
1. Keep it stock. Resist the temptation to modify it.
2. Repair anything broken ASAP
3. Make it the BEST it can be. Trying to save money on repairs and taking the "not as good" option is foolish, because the best will last the longest too.

 

[timwinters]

3. Make it the BEST it can be. Trying to save money on repairs and taking the "not as good" option is foolish, because the best will last the longest too.

Except Best does not always equal most legal. Many times it doesn't.

I spend every dime I need to on my plane...but not a dime more.

My engine is currently scattered across five or six states in the middle of being overhauled. I could have gotten by with spending about $30k. But it's my engine. I only have one. It'll be right. Thus I'll spend closer to $40k before it's all said and done.

But, we were talking about freakin' off the shelf wheel bearings. Jeezus, they're just off the shelf wheel bearings. It makes zero difference.

 

[ifly4fun]

It makes zero difference.

Tim, I'm in 100% agreement with you on this, especially after I dropped $400 for new ones. (Granted 4/6 he claimed were beyond their life and needed replacement anyway) and given the plane sat outside for several years, i believed him.

As for Zero difference.. if its the difference between a signed off annual vs not... guess there is a slight difference.

Lesson Learned: My next plane will absolutely be an experimental.