I think I got fired

Henning said:
And your name will be the last one that comes up. Again, up to you, but it's easy as it can be to CYA by crossing the Ts and dotting the Is.... In less time than it took to participate in this thread it could have been done.
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Probably, you can always over react.
 
Henning said:
True... but you can also always get ass raped by some idiot too. Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.
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I'd believe this is a simple case of an owner that can't afford to keep their aircraft.
 
Tom-D said:
I'd believe this is a simple case of an owner that can't afford to keep their aircraft.
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No doubt....

It is the next owner who will pay the price, especially if he/she buys it without any heads up of the real shape it is in.
 
kgruber said:
Maybe just always require the logs before starting an inspection.
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Better idea,, don't take any more customers that the ones you already do,:)
 
SkyDog58 said:
Most annuals begin with a review of the logs / maintenance records. That is the normal Step 1.
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Tom's original post..

I started an annual on a 172 a few days ago, the discrepancy list looked like this.

1 Compression very low on #1 & #3. 20/80 & 0 /80 both exhaust leaks. Bore stop shows burned valves

2 Exhaust muffler has 2, 3" cracks at #2 #4 cylinders exhaust pipe

3 #2 blade of the prop is below minimum blade profile.

4 no entry showing the AD for the oil pump gears

5 brake pucks worn to the rivet heads and grooves in disks beyond limits

6 severe corrosion on wing spars, behind fuel tanks

7 no entry or data on fuel and oil hoses.

I e-mailed the owner and told him I was taking a few Days for me, and left my notes on the wing.

today I get a call, "I do not want you to continue with my annual".

I'm thankful, If he calls back. "I'm busy"

-------------------------------------------------------------------





It sure likes like he HAD the log books from the beginning.:dunno::dunno::rolleyes:
 
Tom-D said:
Problem is, I don't have them now.
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Obviously, you've made up your mind, and that's fine. But whether you have the logs or not, my recommendation would be to send a certified letter to the owner (along with the bill for work performed) listing the discrepancies. As far as you know, he told his wife that he took the airplane to Tom D, who pronounced it "just fine". So when the client kills himself in the airplane or the estate goes to sell the aircraft, the widow's going to come looking for a rotten, no-good scoundrel IA who "passed" a deficient aircraft.

And regardless of whether that's true or not, it will be a big hassle for you.
 
kyleb said:
Obviously, you've made up your mind, and that's fine. But whether you have the logs or not, my recommendation would be to send a certified letter to the owner (along with the bill for work performed) listing the discrepancies. As far as you know, he told his wife that he took the airplane to Tom D, who pronounced it "just fine". So when the client kills himself in the airplane or the estate goes to sell the aircraft, the widow's going to come looking for a rotten, no-good scoundrel IA who "passed" a deficient aircraft.

And regardless of whether that's true or not, it will be a big hassle for you.
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If he lies, he must have an entry in his records to prove I said it was fine. He doesn't.

The reason he stopped the inspection might have been his wife said, " Oh hell no, your not spending that kind of money on your toy".
 
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kyleb said:
So when the client kills himself in the airplane or the estate goes to sell the aircraft, the widow's going to come looking for a rotten, no-good scoundrel IA who "passed" a deficient aircraft.
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And as the logs are now missing, the scoundrel IA obviously hid his misdeeds by making the logs disappear..... (see the 'accident' in Shirley,NY I cited earlier)



And then there is that from the FAAs inspectors guide (p18):

Incomplete Inspection ​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]If an annual inspection is not completed, the holder of an IA should: [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]1. Indicate any discrepancies found in the aircraft records[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]2. Not [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]indicate that an annual inspection was completed. [/FONT][/FONT]
3. Indicate in the aircraft records the extent to which the inspection was completed and all work accomplished

https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_guides/media/faa-g-8082-19.pdf

Not to forget 14 CFR 43.11

(b) Listing of discrepancies and placards. If the person performing any inspection required by part 91 or 125 or § 135.411(a)(1) of this chapter finds that the aircraft is unairworthy or does not meet the applicable type certificate data, airworthiness directives, or other approved data upon which its airworthiness depends, that persons must give the owner or lessee a signed and dated list of those discrepancies. ....

There is no requirement for the discrepancy list to be entered in the logs, so whether the IA has the logs in his possession at the time he writes up the list is of no consequence. To discharge his responsibility, he needs to prove that he provided the owner or lessee with the discrepancy list. Certified mail, return receipt is one way, hiring a process server would be another.
 
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Tom-D said:
If he lies, he must have an entry in his records to prove I said it was fine. He doesn't.

The reason he stopped the inspection might have been his wife said, " Oh hell no, your not spending that kind of money on your toy".
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Reality does not prevent large expenses defending yourself in court. The only way you can gain a preliminary dismissal is by providing evidence. If you carry insurance, no worries, their lawyers will handle it.
 
Henning said:
Reality does not prevent large expenses defending yourself in court. The only way you can gain a preliminary dismissal is by providing evidence. If you carry insurance, no worries, their lawyers will handle it.
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What kind of reasoning did you use to tie the reason to stop the work,to defending your self in court..

Focus Henning, Don't let your mind wander.
 
weilke said:
And as the logs are now missing, the scoundrel IA obviously hid his misdeeds by making the logs disappear..... (see the 'accident' in Shirley,NY I cited earlier)
Why do you think the logs are missing. I'll wager they are still on his bench where I left them.

There is no requirement for the discrepancy list to be entered in the logs, so whether the IA has the logs in his possession at the time he writes up the list is of no consequence. To discharge his responsibility, he needs to prove that he provided the owner or lessee with the discrepancy list. Certified mail, return receipt is one way, hiring a process server would be another.
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Before any one can say I must make an entry in the logs, they must prove I started the annual. Simply because I left him a list of discrepancies, doesn't make that an annual.
 
Tom-D said:
What kind of reasoning did you use to tie the reason to stop the work,to defending your self in court..

Focus Henning, Don't let your mind wander.
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Where do you have evidence you stopped work? You will win whatever suit most likely, but if you can't provide the evidence at the preliminary stages, you're going up against a lawyer who will get 1/3rd of the take, and that will require another lawyer that you have to pay a non refundable retainer to. Kiss off $10-25k right there.

Send the sticky and discrepancy list, keep a notarized copy, $10-25 total. Cheap assed insurance IMO.
 
Tom-D said:
Before any one can say I must make an entry in the logs, they must prove I started the annual. Simply because I left him a list of discrepancies, doesn't make that an annual.
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Sorry, that is not enough for a judge to throw it out in a preliminary hearing. With no evidence, it's their word against yours which means it goes to trial.
 
Tom,
The ex-spurts on here have way too much caffeine on board
You did good
The man asked you for an opinion and you gave it to him
Now, he is deciding what he wants to do - his absolute legal right
You have no legal standing to make the owner do anything - or not do anything

And in fact attempting to do so would open you to a world of legal hurt for tortuous interference in his affairs, diminishing the value of his property, maliciously causing him legal expenses, depriving his wife of conjugal benefits due to the emotional stress (good for a hundred grand even on a bad day) .. .. .. .. yadda, yadda, yadda
My junk yard lawyer would salivate over a case like that
 
SkyDog58 said:
This is why I prefer the format of airline logs over GA logs. In the airline world, you write the discrepancy or the inspection due on the left side of the log book and the right side is for the corresponding corrective action. In the GA world, you basically have just one block where you put down what you did.

If GA followed the airline model, all of these discrepancies would be documented in the log and the owner would be required to have them signed off by an A&P with either an actual fix or a statement that it is acceptable as is.
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I have always been a bit surprised that the FAA doesn't require a Journey Log as we have in Canada and many other countries. Every flight is recorded in it, any work done to the airplane, and any defects that are discovered at any time, by anyone who discovers it. The law here requires us to enter in that log such defects so that the next pilot doesn't take off not knowing that there's an unaddressed defect (repaired, or deferred if permissible) and they're supposed to examine that log before flight. Anytime an owner doesn't want something serious fixed it gets entered, too. A shop can keep a photocopy of those pages and protect itself.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-96-433/FullText.html#s-605.94

Scroll down to Schedule I as well.

Dan
 
Tom's looking at the aircraft could just as easily been called a prebuy or presell inspection. No entries in the log--nothing to see here. No money changed hands so he walks away clean with no paper trail and no liability.. I would have charged the owner for my labor, provided a list of found discrepancies and a separate logbook entry on a sticker saying I looked at the aircraft and provided the owner with a list of unairworthy discrepancies via certified mail and kept copies for my records. A mechanic cannot declare an aircraft unairworthy or redtag it like the FAA. All a mechanic can do is provide lists of discrepancies and not return an aircraft to service. If the owner chooses to disregard or even rip out he entry, that's on him if he does and dies. Lacking a logbook return to service signed by Tom, I don't see how Tom could be held accountable if the airplane subsequently falls out of the sky.
 
Why don't you guys who are not involved simply mind your own business? Some of you zealots are acting like the "soul" of aviation is being violated here.:eek:
 
BillyBH said:
Why don't you guys who are not involved simply mind your own business? Some of you zealots are acting like the "soul" of aviation is being violated here.:eek:
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Right up the point of you being the sucker to buy that plane without any disclosure...:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
BillyBH said:
Why don't you guys who are not involved simply mind your own business? Some of you zealots are acting like the "soul" of aviation is being violated here.:eek:
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IMO, if you feel the need to post you experiences on an aviation bulletin board, you should anticipate feedback. If you don't want feedback and advise, the solution is simple.
 
Witmo said:
Tom's looking at the aircraft could just as easily been called a prebuy or presell inspection. No entries in the log--nothing to see here. No money changed hands so he walks away clean with no paper trail and no liability.. I would have charged the owner for my labor, provided a list of found discrepancies and a separate logbook entry on a sticker saying I looked at the aircraft and provided the owner with a list of unairworthy discrepancies via certified mail and kept copies for my records. A mechanic cannot declare an aircraft unairworthy or redtag it like the FAA. All a mechanic can do is provide lists of discrepancies and not return an aircraft to service. If the owner chooses to disregard or even rip out he entry, that's on him if he does and dies. Lacking a logbook return to service signed by Tom, I don't see how Tom could be held accountable if the airplane subsequently falls out of the sky.
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I believe any one would have difficult time connecting me with this aircraft. with no entries in any log, no work order or any paper at all. The FAA will do nothing .

As for the wife or kids, they would be required to show some thing connecting me to the aircraft. they have nothing.
 
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Tom-D said:
Before any one can say I must make an entry in the logs, they must prove I started the annual. Simply because I left him a list of discrepancies, doesn't make that an annual.
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Mh, so you intend to rely on the Bart Simpson defense.
 

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Dan Thomas said:
I have always been a bit surprised that the FAA doesn't require a Journey Log as we have in Canada and many other countries. Every flight is recorded in it, any work done to the airplane, and any defects that are discovered at any time, by anyone who discovers it. The law here requires us to enter in that log such defects so that the next pilot doesn't take off not knowing that there's an unaddressed defect (repaired, or deferred if permissible) and they're supposed to examine that log before flight. Anytime an owner doesn't want something serious fixed it gets entered, too. A shop can keep a photocopy of those pages and protect itself.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-96-433/FullText.html#s-605.94

Scroll down to Schedule I as well.

Dan
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Absol-freakin-lutely. :yes::yes::yes:
 
weilke said:
And then there is that from the FAAs inspectors guide (p18):

Incomplete Inspection ​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]If an annual inspection is not completed, the holder of an IA should: [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]1. Indicate any discrepancies found in the aircraft records[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]2. Not [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]indicate that an annual inspection was completed. [/FONT][/FONT]
3. Indicate in the aircraft records the extent to which the inspection was completed and all work accomplished

https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_guides/media/faa-g-8082-19.pdf

Not to forget 14 CFR 43.11

(b) Listing of discrepancies and placards. If the person performing any inspection required by part 91 or 125 or § 135.411(a)(1) of this chapter finds that the aircraft is unairworthy or does not meet the applicable type certificate data, airworthiness directives, or other approved data upon which its airworthiness depends, that persons must give the owner or lessee a signed and dated list of those discrepancies. ....
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Yeah, but that is just what the FAA says. Is that really important?
:rolleyes:
 
weilke said:
Mh, so you intend to rely on the Bart Simpson defense.
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Pretty much, prove I did any thing illegal. There is no paper trail to tie me to that aircraft.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Yeah, but that is just what the FAA says. Is that really important?
:rolleyes:
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Why do you think I did an annual?

When does an annual begin and when does it stop.

How long does it require to do an annual?

If he calls back and wants me to continue am I still in progress?

Other than being not in compliance with FAR part 39 what makes this aircraft unsafe to fly?
 
Safer to list all the discrepancies on an official invoice, noting than the owner decided to discontinue the annual inspection and just bill for the labor hours. The invoice document will serve as legal protection for you in case the owner decides to try and continue to operate the aircraft and there is an accident. He wouldn't be able to claim that he was not informed of the airplanes poor condition and it would also document that the annual was not completed at his direction.
 
SbestCFII said:
Safer to list all the discrepancies on an official invoice, noting than the owner decided to discontinue the annual inspection and just bill for the labor hours. The invoice document will serve as legal protection for you in case the owner decides to try and continue to operate the aircraft and there is an accident. He wouldn't be able to claim that he was not informed of the airplanes poor condition and it would also document that the annual was not completed at his direction.
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If there is an accident with this aircraft, how does anyone connect me with the aircraft? how does anyone say an unsigned sheet of maintenance notes is mine?
 
Tom-D said:
If there is an accident with this aircraft, how does anyone connect me with the aircraft? how does anyone say an unsigned sheet of maintenance notes is mine?
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Word of mouth and private investigator.
 
Thread started by Tom about how jacked up an airplane was and he got fired turns into a list of "what if" situations, and everything potentially could have done "wrong" legally, morally or in others opinion
 
gitmo234 said:
Thread started by Tom about how jacked up an airplane was and he got fired turns into a list of "what if" situations, and everything potentially could have done "wrong" legally, morally or in others opinion
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It's because he left himself a legal hole to fall through in the most litigious society on Earth, and broadcast it on a publicly searchable forum.
 
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SbestCFII said:
Safer to list all the discrepancies on an official invoice, noting than the owner decided to discontinue the annual inspection and just bill for the labor hours. The invoice document will serve as legal protection for you in case the owner decides to try and continue to operate the aircraft and there is an accident. He wouldn't be able to claim that he was not informed of the airplanes poor condition and it would also document that the annual was not completed at his direction.
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People seem to think mechanics are supposed to be the airworthiness police. Not so. The owner operator/pilot is supposed to be the authority determining airworthiness prior to every flight. The mechanic is just a paid consultant. If the owner operator wants to disregard the advice of his mechanic, that's on him, the owner operator, and him alone. A mechanic is only responsible for the work he does and his signature in the logbook is a return to service only for that work. If an owner pays me to replace a windscreen and I notice a prop AD overdue in his logbook as I make my maintenance log entry, I am under no legal obligation to say or do anything concerning the AD. I personally would bring this to his attention, but if he chooses to ignore it, so be it.
 
Witmo said:
People seem to think mechanics are supposed to be the airworthiness police. Not so. The owner operator/pilot is supposed to be the authority determining airworthiness prior to every flight. The mechanic is just a paid consultant. If the owner operator wants to disregard the advice of his mechanic, that's on him, the owner operator, and him alone. A mechanic is only responsible for the work he does and his signature in the logbook is a return to service only for that work. If an owner pays me to replace a windscreen and I notice a prop AD overdue in his logbook as I make my maintenance log entry, I am under no legal obligation to say or do anything concerning the AD. I personally would bring this to his attention, but if he chooses to ignore it, so be it.
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It's not about responsibility, it's about liability and the ability to disprove it to a judge before it gets to a jury. That's a completely different subject in America. If you can't manage to get rid of it in the preliminary stages, you're looking at $10k minimum unless you have a lawyer who will take it for free, and that is if you don't actually have liability.
 
N801BH said:
Right up the point of you being the sucker to buy that plane without any disclosure...:rolleyes::rolleyes:
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I would imagine that a mechanic hired to do a pre buy on this particular aircraft would spot those discrepancies and relay that info to the potential buyer.
 
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