I got the "small airplanes are so dangerous talk today"...

imwithtuxedo

imwithtuxedo

Pre-takeoff checklist
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We've all been there, someone hears you're a pilot, asks you what kind of plane you fly, and then begins to "tell" you how dangerous it is to fly such small planes because they see crashes on the news where everyone dies.

Unfortunately, I was ready (partly because of my job) to rebut this argument.

Annoying person/family member: small planes are so dangerous
Me: really, why?
AP: I always see on the news how people die when they crash. I'd never get in one of those. Too dangerous.
Me: Yeah, that's sad when people die. Do you drive a car?
AP: of course, why?
Me: Just curious. Do you think driving a car is too dangerous to not ever do it again?
AP: That's ridiculous. Cars are much safer than small planes.
Me: That's interesting, because in 2018, some 650+ people died in Oklahoma in car crashes and only 393 people died in the small airplane crashes in the entire United States in 2018. Also, planes don't crash into each in midair because a sixteen year old is on snapchat or facebook...
AP: silence
Me: Wanna go flying?
AP: silence

Not changing hearts and minds, but I felt better.
 
My chances of getting killed in an airplane crash because someone else screws up are vanishingly small. My chances of getting wiped out by some dick driving drunk, or while texting, or whatever... much higher.

Yes, statistically GA flying is much more dangerous than driving. But at least with flying, statistically if I get killed it will probably be my own damn fault. So my chances of having an accident in an airplane largely depend on me.
 
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I recently sold a car that I swore I'd never sell. I did this because I've had too many close calls with texting drivers, and figured it wasn't long before it gets rear-ended.
 
imwithtuxedo said:
We've all been there, someone hears you're a pilot, asks you what kind of plane you fly, and then begins to "tell" you how dangerous it is to fly such small planes because they see crashes on the news where everyone dies.

Unfortunately, I was ready (partly because of my job) to rebut this argument.

Annoying person/family member: small planes are so dangerous
Me: really, why?
AP: I always see on the news how people die when they crash. I'd never get in one of those. Too dangerous.
Me: Yeah, that's sad when people die. Do you drive a car?
AP: of course, why?
Me: Just curious. Do you think driving a car is too dangerous to not ever do it again?
AP: That's ridiculous. Cars are much safer than small planes.
Me: That's interesting, because in 2018, some 650+ people died in Oklahoma in car crashes and only 393 people died in the small airplane crashes in the entire United States in 2018. Also, planes don't crash into each in midair because a sixteen year old is on snapchat or facebook...
AP: silence
Me: Wanna go flying?
AP: silence

Not changing hearts and minds, but I felt better.
Click to expand...

Well , he was right - it is much more dangerous to fly in a small GA plane than it is to drive a car.
Yes, you are more likely to kill yourself in a plane than being killed by some other pilot , but that doesn’t change the fact that you are still much more likely to kill you self in a plane.
 
i didn't want to worry my mom when i started training so i waited to tell her until after i passed the checkride. she was surprisingly supportive. i've never had the "conversation" with anyone...but i'm ready.
 
My parents are fine with me flying and supported me racing dirt bikes when I was a kid. Now I get the “motorcycles are dangerous” speech.... not that it will stop me from getting one, but the stance change makes no sense. There was an AOPA article a few years ago that said the fatality rates for GA and motorcycles were almost identical.
 
I've been looking into this notion promulgated by pilots that flying is MUCH more dangerous than driving a car...

Its rate of fatals is measured differently than autos. It's not a simple extrapolation.
Miles vs hours.

I'm not a statistician, but the odds look like a wash or close to it. IOW, if I decide to get in my car to drive to the airport and fly for an hour, I'm as likely to die on the way there or on the way home as I am in the air.

"Flailerons" indeed!

AOPA just did an article on the dangers of flying, and how the rate has gone up from the lowest ever... That's what got me to studying it a little.
 
I think it is worthwhile to try and understand where they are coming from, if you want to change minds or update them.

I think most non pilots think that if the engine goes out for example, the plane drops like a brick. They may have even heard that a plane can still fly, but I think they negate that, and think “sure...but not much, certainly not as much as if the engine is running”. They think an airplane without the engine running is mostly uncontrollable.
So letting them know that pilots even practice engine out, and the range one can have, and that one has the same control in that range as normal, except for ascending very much, but that landings are done with engine “out” and practiced.

Also they use and visualize, the word “crash” in the context they most know, a car crash. They think pilots are being pedantic when they prefer “forced landing”, but you can let them know that as long as the pilot doesn’t make an error (spin at low altitude) it is a forced landing, not a crash.

This is guessing that most folks think engine out is the biggie in “crashes”, the most common cause.
Where spins on final, or stalling on takeoff is more akin to driving on icy patches. Where the driver or pilot has to just not let it get out of hand.

Or you could I give up and just strike a pose and say “I have no fear of death, I’m a steely eyed pilot!” And look with disdain on the cringing mortal.

edit to add: though it doesn’t help with that latest crash in South Dakota, and now a new one from engine failure in Texas just reported. Someone here actually did enlighten me to the stats, when you only look at GA flying not being nearly as safe as all flying. Not quite the safer than automobile argument anymore.
 
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ktup-flyer said:
My parents are fine with me flying and supported me racing dirt bikes when I was a kid. Now I get the “motorcycles are dangerous” speech.... not that it will stop me from getting one, but the stance change makes no sense. There was an AOPA article a few years ago that said the fatality rates for GA and motorcycles were almost identical.
Click to expand...

You're shopping for a bike to ride on pavement? I'd say that is definitely more deadly than a dirt bike. I'd rather ragdoll off a dirt bike in 4th gear than get on some roads on a bike. I've come off a track or out of the woods pretty beat up in my days, but I never got hit by a two ton car in those places.

When I tell my grandmother I'm pursuing a PP certificate, the thought of it may give her a heart attack. She's the type of person that thinks everything that happens during a person's waking hours are dangerous.
 
Koolaid is such a refreshing drink after a warm flight , but a pilot should not get carried away with it. I don't have a big survey with figures like he Nall report that AOPA puts out, but if you have been in aviation for awhile, like I have for half a century, think of how few people you know personally that have been killed in cars. There will be some of course, but likely to be a handful. One reason is most car accidents are not likely to be fatal. I, sadly know dozens of friends who have been killed in flying. One year some time ago John Baugh said wrote down a list and it was 75. Now if all you flying is airlines, passenger or pilot, that is different.
But if you are in the gen av private side, it is dangerous, especially if you are in the fun side, acro, racing at Reno, vintage, warbirds, etc.
We do truth and ourselves and others a disservice to ignore this, better to find where the dangers are and try to fly safely . If you do a few simple things, stay in good vmc weather, carry lots of fuel, no low alt acro or hard maneuvers, fly "tamer"planes, and yes a 51 is great fun but not as benign as a 172, you can improve the chances of safe flying by probably 50%.
There are things we do that are really fun, like ski racing, but if you spend a lot of time going down an icy mountain at 80 mph you are probably going to also spend a lot of time at the ortho surgeon. You can of put it in the back of your mind but it doesn't go away. One other thing about flying, when I am on a ski race course, I don't have anyone on my back, there is no passengers to be responsible for. In flying there is.
 
Motorcycles are even more dangerous, you can get hurt or killed by your own action,going into a corner to fast, over using the brakes etc, hitting potholes, and you can get killed by the drivers around you, much more so than being likely to have another pilot hit you in the air. And you don't have the kind of body protection on a cycle as in a car.
 
Fiveslide said:
When I tell my grandmother I'm pursuing a PP certificate, the thought of it may give her a heart attack. She's the type of person that thinks everything that happens during a person's waking hours are dangerous.
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My grandmother was one of my first passengers after I got my ticket, back when I was 17.
 
I have a different response. I explain that while there are certainly risks, 90% of airplane crashes are preventable. Unlike cars or motorcycles where you are at the whims of other drivers, most airplane crashes could be prevented by a superior pilot.

they still don’t want to go flying, but they are in greater awe of pilots.
 
It's not dangerous at all...not even when taking off with light frost on the wings or flying over the ocean on a moonless night. <har>

Doing anything with me? Now THAT'S dangerous!

But seriously, sure it has its dangers, everything in life does. Some people just need to stay in bed and out of the way of those of us who want to live life and experience other than just the routinely mundane.
 
imwithtuxedo said:
We've all been there, someone hears you're a pilot, asks you what kind of plane you fly, and then begins to "tell" you how dangerous it is to fly such small planes because they see crashes on the news where everyone dies.

Unfortunately, I was ready (partly because of my job) to rebut this argument.

Annoying person/family member: small planes are so dangerous
Me: really, why?
AP: I always see on the news how people die when they crash. I'd never get in one of those. Too dangerous.
Me: Yeah, that's sad when people die. Do you drive a car?
AP: of course, why?
Me: Just curious. Do you think driving a car is too dangerous to not ever do it again?
AP: That's ridiculous. Cars are much safer than small planes.
Me: That's interesting, because in 2018, some 650+ people died in Oklahoma in car crashes and only 393 people died in the small airplane crashes in the entire United States in 2018. Also, planes don't crash into each in midair because a sixteen year old is on snapchat or facebook...
AP: silence
Me: Wanna go flying?
AP: silence

Not changing hearts and minds, but I felt better.
Click to expand...

It’s a great point you made. People are really just like pigs to a slaughter sometimes.

No point trying to change people’s minds. Keeps the airspace just a little less clogged up for those of us who get it!
 
My boss was giving me a hard time about my dangerous hobby (i.e., anything involving small planes) and I would counter that him commuting via bicycle on busy city streets was equally dangerous. He got hit pretty bad the other day and now I feel bad about it. Be careful about making risk comparisons personal!
 
I simply say "I have flown about as many or more miles than I've driven since I started flying. I've had 0 incidents or scratches on the airplane. However in the car I've been T-boned, hit a deer, and had the swipe n slam performed. Take it for what it's worth."
 
I had an argument with my current employer about flying vs driving to out of state meetings earlier last year I think. What it came down to was "optics". Apparently flying a 30K plane from state to state sends the wrong message. But driving a 50K auto state to state is quite alright.

Safety and time-wise planes always win imo..
 
Fact is:
It IS more dangerous to fly private than drive. About 20X more dangerous. Per hour.

Now, 50% of GA fatals are "pilot error"

And, if you're not THE pilot who is error prone... Well then, it's only 10X more dangerous!

The good news is that if you live within 25 miles of the airport, THAT short drive is more likely to kill you than say... a road trip to Yosemite.

But once you get in the plane....

Meh... I was a conscientious flyer before. I will be again. I've got my medical, I've got my PPL, I'm going to a rusty pilot seminar, I will go with a CFII to get myself competent again. I will have my flight review... And, I will fly again.

It's worth the risk to me. I don't take it lightly, I do all I can to lessen the risk.

But I enjoy it. If you care to join me...

C'mon! Let's go FLY!
 
Rgbeard said:
I recently sold a car that I swore I'd never sell. I did this because I've had too many close calls with texting drivers, and figured it wasn't long before it gets rear-ended.
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We have a new '19 model car, almost a year old now. In that time, I was lane changed into by a guy texting and not looking, and rear ended by a teen talking on the cell phone. The rear ender was a hell of a whallop, caused $9k of damage to the car. People just don't pay attention, look at their phones far too much, and tailgate badly.

ktup-flyer said:
My parents are fine with me flying and supported me racing dirt bikes when I was a kid. Now I get the “motorcycles are dangerous” speech.... not that it will stop me from getting one, but the stance change makes no sense. There was an AOPA article a few years ago that said the fatality rates for GA and motorcycles were almost identical.
Click to expand...

I couldn't have a bike growing up, parents wouldn't allow it. Once I was on my own, hell yeah.
 
The stats are so convoluted and vague that I simply don’t buy the motorcycle comparison.

Some planes are much more dangerous that others. Some conditions are much more dangerous than others. Some types of flying are much more dangerous than others.

Your average mid-time pilot flying around in a tricycle Cessna or Piper, staying away from weather and being conservative in taking risks, is not going to come close to being as dangerous as riding a motorcycle.

Other types of flying will be even more dangerous than riding a motorcycle.

7% of fatalities occur in one state: Alaska. Don’t fly their and you just upped your survival rate statistically. Fly only VMC and/or light IMC and your chances of dying plummet. Don’t do acrobatics.

The point is that you have control on mitigating a lot of risk before even factoring in pilot skill or errors. You can’t mitigate it all, but you can mitigate some of it.
 
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RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
My boss was giving me a hard time about my dangerous hobby (i.e., anything involving small planes) and I would counter that him commuting via bicycle on busy city streets was equally dangerous. He got hit pretty bad the other day and now I feel bad about it. Be careful about making risk comparisons personal!
Click to expand...

I commute by bicycle during the week, and even ride my bicycle to the hangar to fly. Statistically, I should be dead.
 
RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
My boss was giving me a hard time about my dangerous hobby (i.e., anything involving small planes) and I would counter that him commuting via bicycle on busy city streets was equally dangerous. He got hit pretty bad the other day and now I feel bad about it. Be careful about making risk comparisons personal!
Click to expand...

At my place of work, when someone wants to do a "risky" activity, they have to fill out a form and have it approved by the commander - our boss. I didn't have to fill out the form because my boss is an A-10 pilot.
 
Yes, general aviation is very dangerous. Anyone tells me so gets complete agreement. Makes for short conversations.

Say whatever you want, our safety record is abysmal. I'll do what I can, but I already know dead people who were doing due diligence. Aviation is enormously unforgiving of mistakes, and can really bite unexpectedly. If you really feel otherwise you are deluding yourselves.
 
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I guess I don’t understand the sensitivity to non-pilots assessment of the danger of flying. It is dangerous. It’s a unforgiving hobby for most of us where bad decisions or equipment failure can be fatal. Most of the GA pilots don’t need to fly for work or even travel - we do so because we enjoy the challenge and enjoyment - and the esteem of telling our fiends and family “we’re pilots.”

You cant compare this hobby to driving cars. Most people need cars for daily activities, so their decision to take the risks of driving is more utilitarian. We don’t have to fly, we chose to.

When friends ask about the dangers I tell them about the risks and that I try very hard to avoid the major risks - flying into bad weather (I’m IFR ratted), icing, proper preflight planning, fuel planning, my own health and readiness, etc. BUT it’s a risk. No need to defend it as anything else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Independent of accident stats, I feel safer traveling in my plane than driving. I’m certainly more in control of my fate. So perhaps the best strategy is simply to fly more and drive less when the choice is available.

Living with your plane opens up a lot more opportunities to do that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
EdFred said:
And almost always self inflicted. Then I ask them if they think I am unsafe, etc...they always back down.
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Funny, I ask that and they say "yes, you're very dangerous". Of course that's only in jest until they fly with me...
 
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steingar said:
Funny, I ask that and they say "yes, you're very dangerous". Of course that's only in jet until they fly with me...
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Then it's confirmation of the hypothesis? :D
 
Problem with that is how did they determine number of hours flown GA?

I never turn anything in yearly saying how much I flew.
 
That data was from the NTSB and they go into it some (fuel sales, etc.). Probably not as accurate as we'd like but the best they (or anyone) could do. But even with a 50% error margin, "12 times greater" would still be significant.

Point is, even if the data is skewed 95% down from "best guess", two things will be apparent; 1) GA is more dangerous than cars, and 2) Naysayers will still insist that the most dangerous part of the flight is the car trip to the airport cause "it's those other pilots and as long as you keep gas in the plane, don't fly into IMC" etc., it's safer than driving".

We just need to accept that it is inherently dangerous and mitigate the known killers on each and every flight.
 
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steingar said:
Yes, general aviation is very dangerous. Anyone tells me so gets complete agreement. Makes for short conversations.

Say whatever you want, our safety record is abysmal. I'll do what I can, but I already know dead people who were doing due diligence. Aviation is enormously unforgiving of mistakes, and can really bite unexpectedly. If you really feel otherwise you are deluding yourselves.
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Of course you can do your due diligence and still die. That's true for anything.

But I don't think it's "delusion" to say that proper risk management can substantially reduce the chances. Weather related accidents are a top killer. Other niche activities like acrobatics and warbirds also add several fatals to the stats every year. Mountain and bush flying in general are more dangerous. The really fast stuff is typically more dangerous (Lancair, etc.).

My life insurance is paid up and I know what I'm doing is more dangerous than driving a car. But it doesn't have to be 20x more dangerous if you make some decisions before leaving the ground. Others will accept higher levels of risk.
 
Just a thought here - and perhaps not very well thought out. But it seems to me that we are falling victim to a faulty premise, i.e. the idea that because people die in the activity, it is dangerous. What is the threshold at which something becomes dangerous? I'm told that people die slipping and falling getting out of their bathtub. I know of people who have died from falling down stairs. Do those deaths make the activities dangerous?

Yes, I realize that most of this discussion attempts to address the relative danger between modes of transportation. But I don't want to buy into the premise that flying is "inherently dangerous." Yes, there are risks. We should know what they are and minimize them. Yet, I don't think those risks make the activity inherently dangerous. If it were, I doubt that I would engage in it.

The OP's family jumped to the uninformed conclusion that deaths they see on the news = dangerous. I like the way he challenged that notion. With respect to cars, we don't think deaths = dangerous. That may be the best way to get the uninformed to appreciate the fallacy of their logic. We can do that without falling into the trap of comparative degrees of danger. Having done that, then perhaps we focus on the risks and not some abstract concept of danger.

Just food for thought.
 
Fiveslide said:
When I tell my grandmother I'm pursuing a PP certificate, the thought of it may give her a heart attack.
Click to expand...
Back when I told my Finnish grandmother I had soloed she gave me some great advice in broken English, "Don't go falling in the lake!" The "lake" being Lake Erie and within earshot of its breaking waves.
 
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