I got the "small airplanes are so dangerous talk today"...

LongRoadBob said:
I think it is worthwhile to try and understand where they are coming from, if you want to change minds or update them.

I think most non pilots think that if the engine goes out for example, the plane drops like a brick. They may have even heard that a plane can still fly, but I think they negate that, and think “sure...but not much, certainly not as much as if the engine is running”. They think an airplane without the engine running is mostly uncontrollable.
So letting them know that pilots even practice engine out, and the range one can have, and that one has the same control in that range as normal, except for ascending very much, but that landings are done with engine “out” and practiced.

Also they use and visualize, the word “crash” in the context they most know, a car crash. They think pilots are being pedantic when they prefer “forced landing”, but you can let them know that as long as the pilot doesn’t make an error (spin at low altitude) it is a forced landing, not a crash.

This is guessing that most folks think engine out is the biggie in “crashes”, the most common cause.
Where spins on final, or stalling on takeoff is more akin to driving on icy patches. Where the driver or pilot has to just not let it get out of hand.

Or you could I give up and just strike a pose and say “I have no fear of death, I’m a steely eyed pilot!” And look with disdain on the cringing mortal.

edit to add: though it doesn’t help with that latest crash in South Dakota, and now a new one from engine failure in Texas just reported. Someone here actually did enlighten me to the stats, when you only look at GA flying not being nearly as safe as all flying. Not quite the safer than automobile argument anymore.
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How many GA fatalities per day vs auto fatalities per day? No comparison. But most auto accidents and fatalities are so commonplace and uninteresting except to those involved or affected, that they only make the local news.
 
I've had this talk before. This is how I handled it:

AP: How can you fly in a small airplane? It is so dangerous.
Me: Yes it is. Mind if I ask you a question: How do you see yourself dying?
AP: Well I'd like to die like my grandpa, in his sleep.
Me: That doesn't answer the question though. How do you see YOURSELF dying?
AP: I guess I never thought about it. Probably from heart disease. I need to lose a few pounds.
Me: Thanks for answering my question. By the way, heart disease sounds like a horrible way to go.

--end conversation--
 
murphey said:
How many GA fatalities per day vs auto fatalities per day? No comparison. But most auto accidents and fatalities are so commonplace and uninteresting except to those involved or affected, that they only make the local news.
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Like the 4 girls all under 16 and all intoxicated, all burned to death in a single car they crashed into a tree this year near here. It is the most memorable one out of hundreds.

Been a few wrong-way on the interstate late at night killing someone too.

One dude, who should have been deported, slammed into a mustang waiting to turn left on a two lane highway, he ended up hitting a car head-on and killing four after the collision with the mustang IIRC.

One of my friends daughters was killed when her Impala hit a pickup head-on. I don't remember if anyone was ever found at fault.

High school classmate was killed in car accident.

Tech school classmate was killed in car accident.

The freakiest one this year: Two occupants were crushed when a cement truck rolled and ended up on their car. The truck was turning sharply and landed on the car stopped at a light. Happened in Omaha.

In the news today: Man who drove into oncoming traffic in failed suicide attempt sentenced to life for murder
 
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imwithtuxedo said:
We've all been there, someone hears you're a pilot, asks you what kind of plane you fly, and then begins to "tell" you how dangerous it is to fly such small planes because they see crashes on the news where everyone dies.

Unfortunately, I was ready (partly because of my job) to rebut this argument.

Annoying person/family member: small planes are so dangerous
Me: really, why?
AP: I always see on the news how people die when they crash. I'd never get in one of those. Too dangerous.
Me: Yeah, that's sad when people die. Do you drive a car?
AP: of course, why?
Me: Just curious. Do you think driving a car is too dangerous to not ever do it again?
AP: That's ridiculous. Cars are much safer than small planes.
Me: That's interesting, because in 2018, some 650+ people died in Oklahoma in car crashes and only 393 people died in the small airplane crashes in the entire United States in 2018. Also, planes don't crash into each in midair because a sixteen year old is on snapchat or facebook...
AP: silence
Me: Wanna go flying?
AP: silence

Not changing hearts and minds, but I felt better.
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Personally, the way people drive, every time I get home I marvel at the fact that I made it back alive.
 
bflynn said:
I have a different response. I explain that while there are certainly risks, 90% of airplane crashes are preventable. Unlike cars or motorcycles where you are at the whims of other drivers, most airplane crashes could be prevented by a superior pilot.

they still don’t want to go flying, but they are in greater awe of pilots.
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This is my approach. I never would have put my babies in a GA plane if I thought it was more dangerous than the same trip in a car. I understand the aggregate statistics. All GA flights vs all car trips, whether by mile or by hour, is not the comparison I’m interested in. I’m interested in whether this trip, with this plane, this pilot, this backup pilot, these weather conditions, etc. is more risky or less risky than the same trip in a car.

If the choice is 9 hours on I-95 at 80+ mph with my husband at the wheel, or 3 hours in a plane we own and maintain with my husband as pilot and me co-pilot on an IFR plan in VMC, you will not convince me we are safer going by car.
 
Rushie said:
This is my approach. I never would have put my babies in a GA plane if I thought it was more dangerous than the same trip in a car. I understand the aggregate statistics. All GA flights vs all car trips, whether by mile or by hour, is not the comparison I’m interested in. I’m interested in whether this trip, with this plane, this pilot, this backup pilot, these weather conditions, etc. is more risky or less risky than the same trip in a car.

If the choice is 9 hours on I-95 at 80+ mph with my husband at the wheel, or 3 hours in a plane we own and maintain with my husband as pilot and me co-pilot on an IFR plan in VMC, you will not convince me we are safer going by car.
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I think just about everyone here would like to claim that they are safe and statistics don’t apply to them because they don’t do X or Y or Z , yet somehow GA pilots keep dying at much greater ratios than drivers so , either there is a small subset of pilots who keep doing X,Y and Z or we all are part of the pool and we just haven’t had a chance to be tested yet ...
 
Rushie said:
This is my approach. I never would have put my babies in a GA plane if I thought it was more dangerous than the same trip in a car. I understand the aggregate statistics. All GA flights vs all car trips, whether by mile or by hour, is not the comparison I’m interested in. I’m interested in whether this trip, with this plane, this pilot, this backup pilot, these weather conditions, etc. is more risky or less risky than the same trip in a car.

If the choice is 9 hours on I-95 at 80+ mph with my husband at the wheel, or 3 hours in a plane we own and maintain with my husband as pilot and me co-pilot on an IFR plan in VMC, you will not convince me we are safer going by car.
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Good thoughts. Any given trip should be assessed on its own merit. But is the comparison between the two modes all you are really interested in? If there is a 50% chance that you will have a fatal accident in the car, and a 60% chance that you will have a fatal accident in the plane, I suspect that you will not take the car. Instead, you simply don't go, because you have decided the trip is too dangerous to make. Now, what if your chances of a fatal accident in the airplane is .00054% (which is the published fatal accident rate per hour for 2016) vs. .0000216% in the car? (I don't know what the fatal accident rate per hour for cars is - I've just plugged in 1/25th the airplane rate for the sake of discussion.) Which do you take? I suspect you take the airplane because the risk is miniscule.
 
I expect the statistics to be more favorable for pilots if you compare fatal accidents per mile instead of per hour. As others have said, you can also significantly reduce risk by making a few good decisions to avoid various behavior.
 
I got/get this all the time from Hang Gliding as well as GA. It generally goes down two paths 1.) I knew, had a friend who knew, someone that was in a Hang Glider/GA plane and crashed. 2.) What happened to JFK Jr? The latter almost entirely from women in the 50/60 year old range.

These comments go down two paths, one that is fine, one that really annoys me
Path 1. Is it safe to fly? Here I talk about training, ADM, Preflighting, annual inspection and the plane can land if the engine dies
Path 2. What about your family? Basically what happens if I die. This one really ****es me off. Usually it comes from someone who's tongue had been loosened with a little sauce. Generally the same person is going to drive home under the influence. I have kind of stopped caring, but it's none of their damn business. I don't ask them how often they drive impaired, overeat, smoke, vape or other stuff.

The one thing I'd add is none of these have anything to do with relative risk. Is flying more risky than driving? Honestly, I don't care. I choose to fly. I understand the risks and am willing to do more things to mitigate those risks than when I do other activities. Many things are dangerous. What I have 0 patience with is a busybody that tries to tell me what a bad parent or spouse I am because of my choices.
 
Hang 4 , you don't have to pretend that gen av is safe, just because you want to do it. And likely some of the people who asks about danger actually do have your safety at heart.
As for women in the 50 to 60 range they probably do a lot less dumb stuff in a airplane and crash a lot less than men.
And you don't see too many women speeding down the street in and out of traffic lanes on a Harley without a helmet on.
 
Bill Greenwood said:
Hang 4 , you don't have to pretend that gen av is safe, just because you want to do it. And likely some of the people who asks about danger actually do have your safety at heart.
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Where exactly did I "pretend" . What I said was I do a lot more risk management when I fly than when I do more pedestrian activities. That to me is the definition of assuming more risk. What I said is that I don't care to go through the exercise of trying to decide that it's more or less safe than driving. Flying has risks, those risks can be mitigated by making choices of when to fly, maintaining your aircraft, thorough preflight, etc..
 
cfitzgerald said:
. Now, what if your chances of a fatal accident in the airplane is .00054% (which is the published fatal accident rate per hour for 2016) vs. .0000216% in the car? (I don't know what the fatal accident rate per hour for cars is - I've just plugged in 1/25th the airplane rate for the sake of discussion.) Which do you take? I suspect you take the airplane because the risk is miniscule.
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As I read it, she said that aggregate statistics are not of interest. If you’re flying VFR from Raleigh to Kissimmee on a calm sunny day, the chance of an accident at much lower than flying the same route in hard IFR with extreme gusts. Additionally, I-95 is a nightmare through SC with only two lanes, a lot of trucks and a heavy need for repaying. The averages don’t apply.
 
cfitzgerald said:
Good thoughts. Any given trip should be assessed on its own merit. But is the comparison between the two modes all you are really interested in? If there is a 50% chance that you will have a fatal accident in the car, and a 60% chance that you will have a fatal accident in the plane, I suspect that you will not take the car. Instead, you simply don't go, because you have decided the trip is too dangerous to make. Now, what if your chances of a fatal accident in the airplane is .00054% (which is the published fatal accident rate per hour for 2016) vs. .0000216% in the car? (I don't know what the fatal accident rate per hour for cars is - I've just plugged in 1/25th the airplane rate for the sake of discussion.) Which do you take? I suspect you take the airplane because the risk is miniscule.
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Good point! If the decision is solely on "more" or "less" risk, then you must go with "LEAST" risk (0) and not make the trip at all. But it's not based solely on that. You have to consider why you're taking the trip plus other intangible benefits of flying vs car.

We make "more" risky choices all the time, particularly in the area of drug treatment choices. Every drug you take has risk of some unwanted side effect. If you take an NSAID for your headache, say you raise your risk of gastric bleed from .001 to .002. That's DOUBLE the risk! But in absolute terms, it's still so small that getting rid of the headache is worth it.
 
RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
I expect the statistics to be more favorable for pilots if you compare fatal accidents per mile instead of per hour. As others have said, you can also significantly reduce risk by making a few good decisions to avoid various behavior.
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Well, it was boiled down above... Convert miles to hours in cars... Still safer...

Convert hours to miles in aircraft... And unless there are a whole lot of Pipers and Cessnas doing Mach+ speeds... GA still loses.

I don't know where the "safer than the trip to the airport" colloquialism came from, unless we include the airlines.
 
No question that flying a GA airplane is more risky than driving, based on fatality rates. However, every pilot can bias those statistics more in their favor by:
  1. Being current and proficient through regular training
  2. Meticulously maintaining your aircraft (another reason to own rather then rent)
  3. Exercising appropriate decision-making about weather
  4. Avoiding preventable fuel exhaustion
I don't know how much just doing these four things will get you, but I would not be surprised if it improved your odds by at least 2-fold. A large fraction of the accidents we read about on the boards violate one or more of these concepts.
 
Bill Greenwood said:
As for women in the 50 to 60 range they probably do a lot less dumb stuff in a airplane and crash a lot less than men.
And you don't see too many women speeding down the street in and out of traffic lanes on a Harley without a helmet on.
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My point on women was that they tend to all remember "the sexiest man alive" dying. No other judgement intended about women.
 
bflynn said:
As I read it, she said that aggregate statistics are not of interest. If you’re flying VFR from Raleigh to Kissimmee on a calm sunny day, the chance of an accident at much lower than flying the same route in hard IFR with extreme gusts. Additionally, I-95 is a nightmare through SC with only two lanes, a lot of trucks and a heavy need for repaying. The averages don’t apply.
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Yes you read me correctly. Those are exactly my points. Even so I agree with his point that it may be worth it even if it is more risky. But you are right, in my calculations it isn't.
 
chemgeek said:
No question that flying a GA airplane is more risky than driving, based on fatality rates. However, every pilot can bias those statistics more in their favor by:
  1. Being current and proficient through regular training
  2. Meticulously maintaining your aircraft (another reason to own rather then rent)
  3. Exercising appropriate decision-making about weather
  4. Avoiding preventable fuel exhaustion
I don't know how much just doing these four things will get you, but I would not be surprised if it improved your odds by at least 2-fold. A large fraction of the accidents we read about on the boards violate one or more of these concepts.
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Do the statistics include aerobatic accidents, crop dusting? Other than typical GA travel?
 
CharlieD3 said:
Well, it was boiled down above... Convert miles to hours in cars... Still safer...

Convert hours to miles in aircraft... And unless there are a whole lot of Pipers and Cessnas doing Mach+ speeds... GA still loses.

I don't know where the "safer than the trip to the airport" colloquialism came from, unless we include the airlines.
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I wouldn’t argue flying yourself is safer than driving overall, just that it’s a lot closer for many of us than overall statistics lead a reader to believe, when you take miles and other factors into account.
 
Hang 4 said:
I got/get this all the time from Hang Gliding as well as GA. It generally goes down two paths 1.) I knew, had a friend who knew, someone that was in a Hang Glider/GA plane and crashed. 2.) What happened to JFK Jr? The latter almost entirely from women in the 50/60 year old range.

These comments go down two paths, one that is fine, one that really annoys me
Path 1. Is it safe to fly? Here I talk about training, ADM, Preflighting, annual inspection and the plane can land if the engine dies
Path 2. What about your family? Basically what happens if I die. This one really ****es me off. Usually it comes from someone who's tongue had been loosened with a little sauce. Generally the same person is going to drive home under the influence. I have kind of stopped caring, but it's none of their damn business. I don't ask them how often they drive impaired, overeat, smoke, vape or other stuff.

The one thing I'd add is none of these have anything to do with relative risk. Is flying more risky than driving? Honestly, I don't care. I choose to fly. I understand the risks and am willing to do more things to mitigate those risks than when I do other activities. Many things are dangerous. What I have 0 patience with is a busybody that tries to tell me what a bad parent or spouse I am because of my choices.
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Path 2. This is why you have life insurance. Sheesh, don't pick on flying, ladies. Males BY FAR endure more risk of death and serious injury than females simply by occupation. If they are going to give you that argument, then they must have a problem with Daddy driving a UPS truck, or working in construction, or being in the military.
 
@Rushie My point wasn't that women worry more than men. It was only that men tend to just say "isn't that dangerous", whereas women of a certain age seem to all remember JFK Jr, and use it as a proof point of why it's dangerous. And yes that's why I have life insurance ( which covers GA and hang gliding)
 
Hang 4 said:
@Rushie My point wasn't that women worry more than men. It was only that men tend to just say "isn't that dangerous", whereas women of a certain age seem to all remember JFK Jr, and use it as a proof point of why it's dangerous. And yes that's why I have life insurance ( which covers GA and hang gliding)
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I got your point. Although I will never understand women who think he was the sexiest man alive. I'm a red blooded straight female and I did not see it - he did nothing for me. Maybe he wasn't my type? :)
 
Rushie said:
Do the statistics include aerobatic accidents, crop dusting? Other than typical GA travel?
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The NTSB stats will include everything, of course. The main point is that a large fraction of GA fatalities are the result of relatively easily avoidable causes. The accident causes from flights from our own airport--only handful in 30 years--is illustrative: they all fall into the avoidable categories: fuel exhaustion, inexperience/currency, maintenance. The general GA accident population seems to be making the same mistakes over and over. If just one more GA pilot manages to avoidably exhaust their fuel supply, we should just all collectively scream.

While it is not possible to eliminate all risk from GA flying, we can all do our very best to minimize that risk. And a good place to start is the most popular accident causes. I could have added another popular avoidable accident cause: VFR into IMC. Even instrument pilots fall into this one. If in doubt about in flight weather, just file IFR (if qualified).
 
I don't think statistics will ever cause people who think GA flying is dangerous to change their minds. You can slice and dice them in many ways. We can find examples of fatalities where the PIC did not exercise anything remotely resembling good judgment. Thinking of the Bus Jet crash at Teterboro as an example. There will also be others where the pilot made good decisions and things still went badly.

I believe that most pilots firing up a plane approach it differently than when they hop in a car or ride a bike. Yes there is more risk but there is also a much higher level of risk management. Pilot judgement makes a huge difference on the risk level of a given flight.
 
Bill Jennings said:
We have a new '19 model car, almost a year old now. In that time, I was lane changed into by a guy texting and not looking, and rear ended by a teen talking on the cell phone. The rear ender was a hell of a whallop, caused $9k of damage to the car. People just don't pay attention, look at their phones far too much, and tailgate badly.

I couldn't have a bike growing up, parents wouldn't allow it. Once I was on my own, hell yeah.
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Same story for me mostly. We could build ramps with our bicycles, ride them on the road, had mini-bikes, dirt/trail bikes, etc,. but NEVER a road motorcycle. :hairraise:

Then, I turned 18. Man my Dad was mad when I pulled up on a '79 Honda CB750F Super Sport. He never got over it.

A few years ago, I sold my Harley after leaving for lunch and before I could get home and back to work, 3 different drivers almost killed me, for real.

Took up flying and figured at minimum I broke even on the odds.
 
Skyrys62 said:
A few years ago, I sold my Harley after leaving for lunch and before I could get home and back to work, 3 different drivers almost killed me, for real.

Took up flying and figured at minimum I broke even on the odds.
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Still do both, with a little hang gliding thrown in, although I'm not current on hang gliding right now. I need to come to a decision, either sell the wing or start flying and get current again. I had a bad HG landing that resulted in a common injury, a distal spiral fracture of the humerus. That was not fun, eight screws and a long metal plate was used to put my arm back together. More hurtful than the fracture and recovery was paying the hospital bill. Gotta love the new high deductible consumer health care plans companies are going towards, the break cost me $6k.

High risk sports will soon be the province of either the truly rich or the truly poor. Those in the middle cannot afford to pay $6k for a bad landing.
 
Most people seem to live very mundane lives, so it creates alarm when they come across someone who does something that seems out of the ordinary. I try to minimize risk as much as possible in my life, but I want to actually live my life to it’s fullest.

It’s also interesting when someone who doesn’t have a clue about aviation, other than the horror they watch on the news, tries to educate you on the subject.

Go out, have fun, and do your thing!
 
Ryanb said:
Most people seem to live very mundane lives, so it creates alarm when they come across someone who does something that seems out of the ordinary. I try to minimize risk as much as possible in my life,by not attending local fly ins.
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Sentence corrected and completed. :D
 
bflynn said:
As I read it, she said that aggregate statistics are not of interest. If you’re flying VFR from Raleigh to Kissimmee on a calm sunny day, the chance of an accident at much lower than flying the same route in hard IFR with extreme gusts. Additionally, I-95 is a nightmare through SC with only two lanes, a lot of trucks and a heavy need for repaying. The averages don’t apply.
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Basically true. A lot of car miles are also in town, under 40mph.

The risks of death are obviously higher if you are doing 75mph on a busy highway in the rain as opposed to driving around the corner at 30mph.

How much are the stats diluted for cars via local driving? I.E. it’s likely far more dangerous to drive on a highway than a city street.

No doubt cars are still much safer, but all of these stats are misleading in some form. VMC flight in the daytime is obviously going to be many magnitudes “safer” than hard IMC over the mountains. But all of it gets pumped into the same stat.

You can’t make the assumption you won’t make a mistake in flight. Those can happen to anyone. But you can make the assumption that you’ll make the preflight decisions that dramatically lower risk.
 
Rushie said:
I got your point. Although I will never understand women who think he was the sexiest man alive. I'm a red blooded straight female and I did not see it - he did nothing for me. Maybe he wasn't my type? :)
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People like whom they like. For example, my brother's type and my type are very different.
 
Chemcheek. if the weather is bad, will filing ifr plan change the weather? Not not one degree or one foot of vis. It only allows you to legally fly in the bad weather. If flying in that weather is safe, maybe, but we should not be under an illusion about the weather.
 
murphey said:
How many GA fatalities per day vs auto fatalities per day? No comparison. But most auto accidents and fatalities are so commonplace and uninteresting except to those involved or affected, that they only make the local news.
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still, my main point is instead of trying to talk them out of the attitude, might be good to check if they think an airplane with no engine falls like a brick, or “barely” can fly, is uncontrollable, etc. as I think that is where most people see it as dangerous. Giving them a more accurate picture of what is done when no engine, how well it actually will fly, etc. just a thought.
 
Pilots and motorcyclist are of a different breed than the average person. Try all you want but you'll never sway them to your line of reasoning. In fact, there is really no reasoning involved. There is something inside that makes us want to fly or ride that defies the logic concerning safety. I don't feel the need to defend my actions even if I know that what they are saying is correct.
How much money offered to you would it take to ground yourself or sell your bike? See what I mean? The inner desire to engage in "dangerous" endevours overrides any truthful statistics regarding safety. In the end, being a pilot or motorcyclist is a part of who you are, just like the couch and the remote is part of who "they" are.
 
Palmpilot said:
People like whom they like. For example, my brother's type and my type are very different.
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Yes but I'm not sure that completely explains it. Here is JFK Jr on the left, who I find not the least bit attractive, maybe even a little repulsive. And on the right is Henry Cavill, who I find extremely attractive. You'd think they look like exactly the same "type". I don't know what the difference is, but it's there.
JFK vs HC.JPG
 
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