I feel horrible

[steingar]

Yesterday I flunked a graduating senior. His parents flew in from Russia to see him graduate. He had a good job lined up. I flunked him with good cause, and now all that is frakked up.

That isn't event he worst thing I did with good cause yesterday, not by a huge long shot.

 

[Jeanie]

Sorry that had to happen. What a horrible situation for everyone. Too bad there wasn't some remedial work he could have completed in time to avoid this.

 

[RMCN172RG]

Don't you mean that you have a student who failed your class.

Your job is to teach and evaluate what the student has learned. So was the failure the students to learn or yours to teach.

The other events are similar to how my high school football coach described a loss. The bad call by an official or one play with a mistake does not lose a game. There is no one person responsible. The game shouldne ver come down to one play. If it does it was already lost.

This student failed to acheive all of the requirements to graduate over a period of years with many teachers. You are not the reason he failed to graduate. He is.

 

[AdamZ]

Ugh that stinks all around Michael. Was the failure predictable? or was it a shocker? Just curious when something like this happens does the Administration put pressure on you as the Prof.?

I recall in HS some control freak parents put serious pressure on the Admin and teacher to bring a Grade up from a B to an A so the kid graduated with a 4.0, How freaking ridiculous!!!

 

[ScottM]

Yesterday I flunked a graduating senior. His parents flew in from Russia to see him graduate. He had a good job lined up. I flunked him with good cause, and now all that is frakked up.

That isn't event he worst thing I did with good cause yesterday, not by a huge long shot.

Interesting. You give out grades instead of your students earning them?

I think if you outlined your course and made the requirements known in your syllabus then graded fairly it is not you who flunked a student but a student that failed to achieve the passing requirements. College is big boy school. It is not up to you to spoon feed like a HS teacher.

If all the rest of you students did well and he is the statistical outlier then you know it was not an issue that you had control of. The student failed to do the work to a passing level.

 

[fgcason]

I recall in HS some control freak parents put serious pressure on the Admin and teacher to bring a Grade up from a B to an A so the kid graduated with a 4.0, How freaking ridiculous!!!

You want ridiculous? My grade school algebra instructor ended up getting the axe because his class grade average was too far below normal in the district. He simply demanded a reasonably high standard from day one and held us to it. You got what you deserved in his class. The bell curve was based solely on your ability to do the work and answer the questions correctly with proper instruction. As far as I know, not a single student or parent protested against him. Matter of fact, quite a few of us (students and parents) descended on the school board meeting as an organized rational mob to protest the firing..including several students that failed his class.

 

[murphey]

Don't you mean that you have a student who failed your class.

Your job is to teach and evaluate what the student has learned. So was the failure the students to learn or yours to teach.

The other events are similar to how my high school football coach described a loss. The bad call by an official or one play with a mistake does not lose a game. There is no one person responsible. The game shouldne ver come down to one play. If it does it was already lost.

This student failed to acheive all of the requirements to graduate over a period of years with many teachers. You are not the reason he failed to graduate. He is.

When I was teaching at a local university, I made it clear on Day 1 that I do not like surprises. Do not come to me at the end of the semester with a sob story that you need (pick one: to graduate, a good grade, whatever) but have not been keeping up with the material. I have no sympathy, and my department backed me up repeatedly. On the other hand, I've had students who practically lived in my office during office hours and outside appointments because they needed lots of help. If the student is willing to make the effort, I'm quite willing to spend as much time as needed with them.

And then there was my "favorite" spoiled brat. She made sure everyone knew that Daddy was going to get her a job at ILM when she graduated. Not only did she not make it thru my class, she changed majors because she couldn't get thru the program.

 

[wabower]

It's a two-way street. If expectations are clearly communicated and the exams are consistent with what has been taught, I'm OK with allowing teachers the latitude they need to effectively do their job they way they like to do it. Students don't like (or deserve) surprises either.

 

[wbarnhill]

You do what you gotta do. I messed up in courses in college, but I also made sure there were no surprises in my last semester. The student will live and learn.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I'm pretty sure that Dr. Steingar has earned tenure...if so, he's been teaching several years already. OSU Sciences doen't have a reputation for keeping poor professors around and so tend to weed them out early before tenure is granted.

Stories have 2 or 3 sides...but I'm guessing the student messed up here.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I had a lot of potential; it took strong teachers and the military to bring it out and make me realize it.

Someone not doing what is required to pass now, probably won't produce very good work product for an employer either. At some point, the truth needs to come out rather than just passing the problem along to someone else. I know you're disappointed, but if as has been said, the standards were clear and it wasn't a surprise, you probably did all you could.

Best,

Dave

 

[ScottM]

I'm pretty sure that Dr. Steingar has earned tenure...if so, he's been teaching several years already. OSU Sciences doen't have a reputation for keeping poor professors around and so tend to weed them out early before tenure is granted.

Stories have 2 or 3 sides...but I'm guessing the student messed up here.

Mike did say it was with "good cause" too. So I can understand his feeling horrible but I think that the student is the one that has to be the ultimate responsible party here. How the student deals with this set back will be a lesson in character that is probably more important to his over all success than anything that has happened to him in school.

 

[wabower]

DK Royal said that "when someone is described as having 'a lot of potential' it just means they haven't done anything yet."

I had a lot of potential;

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I feel horrible

If this feels bad, imagine how you would feel if you had compromised the rules or standards, and passed an undeserving student. It would cheapen the accomplishments of many others. Trying to make you feel better here. You did the right thing and should hold your head high.


To me, it's (inadequate performance resulting in failing grade) is an extension of 'Actions Have Consequences'; an important reality of life that too many try to minimize.

 

[ScottM]

If this feels bad, imagine how you would feel if you had compromised the rules or standards, and passed an undeserving student. It would cheapen the accomplishments of many others. Trying to make you feel better here. You did the right thing and should hold your head high.


To me, it's (inadequate performance resulting in failing grade) is an extension of 'Actions Have Consequences'; an important reality of life that too many try to minimize.

Thanks for writing that Dave. That is the idea I have been struggling with communicating on this topic. You succeeded in stating in the way that I had been wanting to. I completely agree with you on this.

 

[RJM62]

That's a pretty bad feeling, but of course you did the right thing. Your job is to teach and evaluate. Theirs is to learn. But it still sucks when they fail.

Back in the early 1980's, I taught various First Aid and Aquatic Safety courses for the Red Cross. Back then, ARC instructors were also the certifiers, meaning we personally signed the cards if the students passed. (I don't know if that's still the case.) I personally taught Standard and Advanced First Aid and their various modules (Water Rescue, Vital Signs, Emergency Extrication, etc.), SFA/AFA-Instructor, CPR, CPR-Instructor, Lifesaving, and Water Safety Instructor.

Most of the students had some work-related reason why they had to take the courses. Only a few had any compelling interest in the subject matter itself. So in almost every class I taught, there were plenty of students who didn't take it seriously. They figured that as long as they showed up and (maybe) stayed awake, they would walk out with the card.

The absolute worst classes were those taught to the annual mob of 18-year-olds seeking WSI, First Aid and/or CPR certification so they could get jobs as summer camp counselors. Absolutely horrible. The worst of the worst.

The WSI students were the most baffling. The sheet they received from the Chapter clearly stated that they would be required to demonstrate various swimming competencies at the first session of the course. You would not believe how many students (especially the girls, for some odd reason) wouldn't even bring their swimsuits.

"Oh, you mean, like, I actually, you know, have to, like, you mean, get in the water?"
​

Yeah, I mean, like, that's why we, like, you know, teach the course at, you know, like, a POOL, airhead!

I thought the courses I taught were pretty important, and I wouldn't certify students who hadn't mastered the material. As a result, a lot of people who thought getting the certificate was just a matter of staying awake through the classes were disappointed; and I know that some of them lost jobs because they failed the courses. I felt horrible about it, but I had to stand my ground.

Not than any of the courses were rocket science, mind you. The courses were simple, well-designed, avoided unnecessary jargon, and were easily mastered by anyone who applied themselves to the subject matter. This wasn't paramedic-level nor even EMT-level stuff. But the skills taught could save lives, even if the course content itself was intentionally kept simple enough for any person of average intelligence to easily master.

In fact, the absolute best class I ever taught was an SFA / CPR class that I co-taught to a bunch of CAP cadets. They thought it was way cool to know how to save lives, and they applied themselves eagerly. They all passed with flying colors (no pun intended).

But in the end, anyone who takes teaching seriously feels bad when their students fail to master the content. That the student's failure was entirely the student's own fault is of little comfort. A good teacher values teaching (and by extension, learning), so the fact that you feel horrible simply attests to the fact that you're a good teacher.

So take some comfort in that. I suspect that you're a professor like the ones I still vividly remember from as long as three decades ago, as opposed to one of the many whose names and faces I couldn't recall if you put a gun to my head. The good ones care enough to take teaching seriously, which makes a lasting impression upon students who care enough to take learning seriously.

-Rich

 

[Trapper John]

Yesterday I flunked a graduating senior. His parents flew in from Russia to see him graduate. He had a good job lined up. I flunked him with good cause, and now all that is frakked up.

Sorry you had to do that, but you did what you needed to do, and in the long run, did the kid a favor.

That isn't even the worst thing I did with good cause yesterday, not by a huge long shot.

Now you've got my curiosity up...


Trapper John

 

[Tom-D]

And you don't look so good either,,,,,,,, Did you fail to teach? or did the student fail to learn?

 

[murphey]

It's a two-way street. If expectations are clearly communicated and the exams are consistent with what has been taught, I'm OK with allowing teachers the latitude they need to effectively do their job they way they like to do it. Students don't like (or deserve) surprises either.

Here's an example from another course I taught. I made it clear a week before the first exam that 90% of the questions would be from the questions at the end of each chapter with 5 questions from the in-class discussions. And half the questions in the book had the answers in the back of the book.

Every single student failed that exam and most of the students blamed me.

 

[wabower]

I can see why. You probably made the right career choice when you left the teaching profession. Making them think and pay attention in class are clearly over the line. *snort*

Here's an example from another course I taught. I made it clear a week before the first exam that 90% of the questions would be from the questions at the end of each chapter with 5 questions from the in-class discussions. And half the questions in the book had the answers in the back of the book.

Every single student failed that exam and most of the students blamed me.

 

[etsisk]

Yesterday I flunked a graduating senior. His parents flew in from Russia to see him graduate. He had a good job lined up. I flunked him with good cause, and now all that is frakked up.

That isn't event he worst thing I did with good cause yesterday, not by a huge long shot.

hmmm... I reckon I personally would have to say that "Yesterday a graduating senior flunked my course. His parents flew in from Russia to see him graduate. He had a good job lined up. He flunked for obvious reasons, and now he's frakked all that up."

I believe in giving credit where credit is due.

 

[steingar]

Sorry that had to happen. What a horrible situation for everyone. Too bad there wasn't some remedial work he could have completed in time to avoid this.

Agreed, but we don't normally do this sort of thing and aren't going to start for a hard luck case. If I do it for one student I'd better be ready to do it for more.

 

[steingar]

Don't you mean that you have a student who failed your class.

Your job is to teach and evaluate what the student has learned. So was the failure the students to learn or yours to teach.

The other events are similar to how my high school football coach described a loss. The bad call by an official or one play with a mistake does not lose a game. There is no one person responsible. The game shouldne ver come down to one play. If it does it was already lost.

This student failed to acheive all of the requirements to graduate over a period of years with many teachers. You are not the reason he failed to graduate. He is.

I will not argue this at all. It still feels horrible, especially when coupled with the other thing that happened. Neither was my "fault" and both were totally justified, it just feels bad doing bad things.

 

[steingar]

Ugh that stinks all around Michael. Was the failure predictable? or was it a shocker? Just curious when something like this happens does the Administration put pressure on you as the Prof.?

The administration has very limited ability to affect my judgement on a thing like this, and would only do so I think in a case of notoriety or a big donor IMHO. I may be a bit cynical in saying this. We knew this student was in a lot of trouble, and warned him of it. The saddest thing is had he come to see me at my office hours or made an appointment (I have never refused a student my time) I might have gotten him through. But he has to come in and do it.

 

[wabower]

I don't agree that you did a bad thing. I agree that it's not always fun to do the right thing.

I will not argue this at all. It still feels horrible, especially when coupled with the other thing that happened. Neither was my "fault" and both were totally justified, it just feels bad doing bad things.

 

[steingar]

Here's an example from another course I taught. I made it clear a week before the first exam that 90% of the questions would be from the questions at the end of each chapter with 5 questions from the in-class discussions. And half the questions in the book had the answers in the back of the book.

Every single student failed that exam and most of the students blamed me.

A good sized part of our evaluation consisted of surprise quizzes that should have been easy if they just read their books. They did abysmally on them.

 

[steingar]

I don't agree that you did a bad thing. I agree that it's not always fun to do the right thing.

I certainly wouldn't argue with this, or most of the other posts in this thread, which I appreciate a great deal. I have to be enormously cagey about the other event, as there are (or will be) legalities involved. I and my associates did the right thing, but I doubt any of us slept easily without aid of alcohol or some other depressant. I got blind drunk myself, first time I've done that in awhile.

 

[dennyleeb]

cops and teachers, I love em

 

[TMetzinger]

I certainly wouldn't argue with this, or most of the other posts in this thread, which I appreciate a great deal. I have to be enormously cagey about the other event, as there are (or will be) legalities involved. I and my associates did the right thing, but I doubt any of us slept easily without aid of alcohol or some other depressant. I got blind drunk myself, first time I've done that in awhile.

Damn, now I'm REALLY curious! But I have confidence that your judgement in the second case was as good as in the first.

Unlike a CFI, you get to be the instructor AND the examiner. And when you have your "examiner" hat on your duty is to the profession and the public, both of whom expect (or should expect) you to hold your examinees to the standards. The role of QC is to prevent something bad from becoming something worse - so when you identify a defect you should be proud of a job well done.

Hmm... wouldn't it be interesting if institutes of higher learning set things up so that the "instructor" and the "examiner" weren't the same person? That would require a very "standard" syllabus and course materials, and I don't know how well that would fit some subjects.

 

[wabower]

It's clear what happens. The teachers start teaching to the test and mediocrity becomes the norm.

.

Hmm... wouldn't it be interesting if institutes of higher learning set things up so that the "instructor" and the "examiner" weren't the same person? That would require a very "standard" syllabus and course materials, and I don't know how well that would fit some subjects.

 

[kevin47881]

I hope today finds you feeling better about making the correct, albeit difficult, decision.

 

[dmccormack]

I helped expel a student from High School when I was a teacher there. Told the parents in front of him that he was a menace to the other students and to himself.

A couple of years later I was outside with the kids when a car pulled up. Former student got out of car, walked over to me, reached out his hand, and said:" Thanks for being tough on me -- it forced me to rethink my priorities -- you were right -- I was a real ass."

I went from ready to fight to melted in 5 seconds.

 

[EppyGA]

I had a similar situation back in the 80's. I was the Manager of Education at a local Technical School and was also teaching. I had a student in a class that failed a phase of his training. Our students usually had a couple days off between phases. I had to call him and tell him he needed to repeat the phase. It wasn't long before he and his dad were sitting on my office pleading that he be allowed to move on with his class. I heard about how he had dyslexia and it made it difficult for him.

In the end I held my ground for the school's rules and told him that he would have to repeat. He did so then finished up his training and we placed him in a job.

The pay off came a year or so later when he stopped by to speak to me. He came to tell me that he was glad that he had repeated and only later came to appreciate what we had done for him by making him do so.

 

[bbchien]

Many moons ago I tried to flunk a completely unsuitable STUDENT CRNA whose excuse for not calling me and for BAD managment was, "well in my experience..."....YOU'RE A STUDENT YOU HAVE NO EXPERIENCE!@!!!! I failed in this task. Michael N__thway CRNA is out there.

This resulted in my realizing that I needed to not be in that environment, e.g, he won, I left. Eight years ago the dean of my Department of surgery tried to flunk a second year surgery resident, Grant was TERRIBLE. The dean was forced to retire.

Professor Michael. doing what needs done is hard. These are awful moments, and I too work at a State University. It's terrible but fault is not to be assigned.

...professor at a State University where admissions are for sale, as was Barack Obama's Senate seat. Sigh.

 

[steingar]

We try and weigh these things carefully. I won't pass on a student who I don't think learned the material. It isn't like I'm teaching them thoracic surgery and someone is going to die if they flunk, but numerous members of our community depend on us to determine if the students have academic ability. This is seen as beneficial or essential to numerous people and institutions. If I start passing unsatisfactory students I've just cheated everybody.

 

[colohan]

Hmm... wouldn't it be interesting if institutes of higher learning set things up so that the "instructor" and the "examiner" weren't the same person? That would require a very "standard" syllabus and course materials, and I don't know how well that would fit some subjects.

To get this right is more labour intensive. But arguably, this is how PhDs work. You work closely with your research advisor to complete a significant body of research work. But you don't finish until you manage to pass an evaluation of a pool of experts (your thesis committee) chosen from inside and outside the faculty at your school.

Chris

 

[azure]

I can see why. You probably made the right career choice when you left the teaching profession. Making them think and pay attention in class are clearly over the line. *snort*

I once had a student taking an online "quiz" during the hour before class when I'm available for questions. She was stuck on one question and asking me for hints. I gave her hints galore, all in the form of questions designed to make her think. That wasn't enough, she wanted me to GIVE HER THE CORRECT ANSWER, and when she got it wrong, it was my fault.

Then there was the student who turned in a term paper on the Hubble telescope, all paragraphs pasted directly from Wikipedia. I gave him a zero and moved his final grade down a notch for cheating. He pleaded with me to give him another chance because his scholarship depended on getting at least a B in my class. Because the paper was optional, I gave in and said that I would give him the grade he would otherwise have gotten if he did the paper over again, without cheating. A few days later he emailed me another paper on the same subject. Of course I double checked to make sure there were no red flags. It turned out that not only were there red flags, but a quick Google search proved that large parts of his SECOND paper were also plagiarized.

Sometimes I hate teaching.

 

[ScottM]

It turned out that not only were there red flags, but a quick Google search proved that large parts of his SECOND paper were also plagiarized.

Sometimes I hate teaching.

I hope he was dealt with appropriately. Plagiarism is serious, at my university it can lead to dismal. in this case it would appear that the student should have been awarded the 'F' that they richly deserved and then dropped from the course.

 

[steingar]

I had a review session where I had given out a test bank. I answered questions with questions, and it worked, except for one guy, who looked at me like I was from Mars, got mad and left.

We've had the plagiarism issue come up on occasion. I'm supposed to send it to the Committee on Academic Misconduct, which I should do so I can wash my hands of it.

 

[azure]

I hope he was dealt with appropriately. Plagiarism is serious, at my university it can lead to dismal. in this case it would appear that the student should have been awarded the 'F' that they richly deserved and then dropped from the course.

I fretted over what to do for a while. After talking it over with colleagues and looking into what a formal academic misconduct charge would involve, and taking into account that the paper was extra credit, I decided not to do anything more. He got a C in the course, I informed the dept chair what had happened, and I never heard from him again.

Though, a week later my office door lock failed under VERY suspicious circumstances. Someone had broken off the end of something in it. I never found out what it was. Coincidence? Probably, but in over 20 years in the building I've never heard of a lock damaged by an attempted breakin. Most stuff that's stolen is taken when the doors are left wide open.