I Declared an Emergency Today (long)

I believe those mags are also know to work loose. Some Mooney owners have been pushing for an AD on them.
 
ejensen said:
I believe those mags are also know to work loose. Some Mooney owners have been pushing for an AD on them.
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What is the change the Mooney owners want? Or are they just talking about a repetitive inspection to make sure it's not worked loose? Seems like the latter is something the Mooney community could disseminate as a recommendation, but the former would involve an alteration to the aircraft requiring more engineering work.
 
Ron Levy said:
What is the change the Mooney owners want? Or are they just talking about a repetitive inspection to make sure it's not worked loose? Seems like the latter is something the Mooney community could disseminate as a recommendation, but the former would involve an alteration to the aircraft requiring more engineering work.
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I don't have the dual mags so haven't kept the specifics. What I remember is the bolts do not specify a locking fastener or what is spec'd doesn't hold. One suggestion I recall is changing to nylon lock nuts but that would require engineering and maybe Mooney's help. The repetitive inspection recommendation is out there might even be an SB. I'll see if I can find anything.
 
Well, I'm settling in for another night in Glen Allen, VA. However, the culprit was found. The block that rides on the cam that opens and closes the points is worn beyond adjustment on both mags. These were adjusted only a month ago, but apparently once they wear beyond a certain point they continue to wear VERY quickly. There is no alternative to this mag for us IO 360A3B6D engine owners. If you look at the Service Difficulty Reports for the Mooney M20J on the FAA website, you'll find approx. 140 reports. The one item that has more reports than any other issue is worn points that have stopped an engine in flight. There is certainly no recurring AD to inspect these points, and I am pretty sure there isn't even a Service Bulletin. BUT THERE SHOULD BE. In addition to my NASA form I will submit the report that Ron mentioned. The AOPA may ban me from the EXPO this weekend, but I am saying there should be at least a mandatory service bulletin and probably an AD to check these points. It is not done because it is very difficult (cramped) to do this and a PITA for the mechanic, but the consequences of ignoring these points are significant. BTW, the points are only a $21 part.

Anyway, new points are ordered and should be here about 10AM. With a little luck I'm out of here just after lunch tomorrow.

Not one, but two FAA guys from the Richmond FSDO came out to look at the plane. First stop was the gas tanks. Second, was my and the plane's paperwork. All in order, end of FAA concern.

The chief pilot of the company that owns the private strip I landed on could not have been nicer. The FBO at KOFP immediately dispatched a mechanic to go with me to the plane. Everyone has been so good to me throughout this whole experience...the GA world is an exceptional one, and I'm very proud to be part of it. You all should be too.

What have I learned? 1. I can handle an emergency, but I could have done it better. 2. Maintenance done in one's home hanger is a whole bunch cheaper than doing it in the field. Don't put off fixing squawks. Beware of these words "We'll take care of it next annual." 3. There are tremendously good people in GA 4. A Mooney's not a bad glider, but.....
 
Lance F said:
Well, I'm settling in for another night in Glen Allen, VA. However, the culprit was found. The block that rides on the cam that opens and closes the points is worn beyond adjustment on both mags. These were adjusted only a month ago, but apparently once they wear beyond a certain point they continue to wear VERY quickly. There is no alternative to this mag for us IO 360A3B6D engine owners. If you look at the Service Difficulty Reports for the Mooney M20J on the FAA website, you'll find approx. 140 reports. The one item that has more reports than any other issue is worn points that have stopped an engine in flight. There is certainly no recurring AD to inspect these points, and I am pretty sure there isn't even a Service Bulletin. BUT THERE SHOULD BE. In addition to my NASA form I will submit the report that Ron mentioned. The AOPA may ban me from the EXPO this weekend, but I am saying there should be at least a mandatory service bulletin and probably an AD to check these points. It is not done because it is very difficult (cramped) to do this and a PITA for the mechanic, but the consequences of ignoring these points are significant. BTW, the points are only a $21 part.

Anyway, new points are ordered and should be here about 10AM. With a little luck I'm out of here just after lunch tomorrow.

Not one, but two FAA guys from the Richmond FSDO came out to look at the plane. First stop was the gas tanks. Second, was my and the plane's paperwork. All in order, end of FAA concern.

The chief pilot of the company that owns the private strip I landed on could not have been nicer. The FBO at KOFP immediately dispatched a mechanic to go with me to the plane. Everyone has been so good to me throughout this whole experience...the GA world is an exceptional one, and I'm very proud to be part of it. You all should be too.

What have I learned? 1. I can handle an emergency, but I could have done it better. 2. Maintenance done in one's home hanger is a whole bunch cheaper than doing it in the field. Don't put off fixing squawks. Beware of these words "We'll take care of it next annual." 3. There are tremendously good people in GA 4. A Mooney's not a bad glider, but.....
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Lance,

Glad to hear that everything is going alright dispite the whole PITA situation. Good Luck, and let us know what happens after the maintenance is completed or started!

This is an interesting one...
 
ejensen said:
I don't have the dual mags so haven't kept the specifics. What I remember is the bolts do not specify a locking fastener or what is spec'd doesn't hold. One suggestion I recall is changing to nylon lock nuts but that would require engineering and maybe Mooney's help. The repetitive inspection recommendation is out there might even be an SB. I'll see if I can find anything.
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I tracked down the thread I was remembering. A couple of mags worked loose. Not a huge problem but there is a Lycoming SI as a result. Also ran across quite a report of dual mag falures. Mostly the nylon gear the drive both mags but also the cam as Lance experienced. Here's a quite from a Mooney service center owner:

"I don't have a problem with loctite but let me mention that there is a
recent Lycoming SI 1508A dated 8/15/03 just for this problem. It was a
result of Coy's efforts and research into the problem. It specifies:
1. Insure correct gasket, pn LW-12681 is installed. ( a similar gasket with
"ears" is often used and that is wrong)
2. Insure correct clamps, pn 66M19385
3. Install new lockwashers, pn STD-475.
4. Torque STD-1410 nuts to 17 ft lbs."
 
Lance F said:
What have I learned? 1. I can handle an emergency, but I could have done it better.
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Hind sight is always 20/20, You kept a cool head in the face of danger and the unknown to an outcome where you and the plane are both in one peice. YOU COULD NOT HAVE HANDLED IT ANY BETTER!

Missa
:cheerswine: Congrats, your the great emergancy landing
 
Great Story Lance,
I am glad everything worked out. Hopefully if I run into such a situation someday, I can handle it exactly how you did.
Cograts and Glad your O.K.,
 
You done good, sir! :yes:

The way you know you can do it? PRACTICE!

Go see Al Englehardt's presentation on managing engine off landings. HINT: Get to the key point at the right altitude. I was amused to see at OSH that that is exactly how the SpaceShipOne pilots did their landings.

Lance, are you still going to AOPA Expo? Your Mooney may be fixed by this weekend!
 
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Lance F said:
... but I could have done it better.
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Done what better? Total engine failure in an unfamiliar area and NOT A SCRATCH ON THE PLANE! It doesn't get any better than that Lance! You da MAN!
 
Mike, If I get out of here tomorrow and the flight back is uneventful, I'll be flying down to Tampa Wednesday afternoon. Somehow I think I'll be more comfortable if I get into Vandenburg airport before dark.:yes:

I'll be searching the exhibition hall high and low for a company with an STC'd solid state ignition system for IO360s, ya know like the one in the $9000 brand new Kia I got from Enterprise this morning.:rolleyes:
 
I dunno Lance, an AD? I know you went through 4ell and back with this emergency, but an AD for a common part that every mechanic knows needs regular inspection and changing? I just hate to see ADs for every last part on the airplane when good mechanicking is all that's needed.

Once again, good job with the 7700.
 
Lance F said:
Mike, If I get out of here tomorrow and the flight back is uneventful, I'll be flying down to Tampa Wednesday afternoon. Somehow I think I'll be more comfortable if I get into Vandenburg airport before dark.:yes:

I'll be searching the exhibition hall high and low for a company with an STC'd solid state ignition system for IO360s, ya know like the one in the $9000 brand new Kia I got from Enterprise this morning.:rolleyes:
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WHAT!!!!??? You want your aircraft to have technology from the SECOND HALF of the 20th Century? How would you EVER get it certified? :D
 
ejensen said:
"I don't have a problem with loctite but let me mention that there is a recent Lycoming SI 1508A dated 8/15/03 just for this problem. It was a result of Coy's efforts and research into the problem. It specifies:
1. Insure correct gasket, pn LW-12681 is installed. ( a similar gasket with
"ears" is often used and that is wrong)
2. Insure correct clamps, pn 66M19385
3. Install new lockwashers, pn STD-475.
4. Torque STD-1410 nuts to 17 ft lbs."
Click to expand...

What we have here is an SI which stipulates: "Make sure your A&P isn't an idiot". Every one of the above is an existing requirement (see Lycoming parts manual and overhaul manual).
 
Oh come on, Lance!!!!

No ball of fire? No wing falling off? No yoke coming off in your hand? No oil all over the windscreen? No flocks of geese ripping off your vertical stab?

No embellishment to the story whatsoever! What kind of pilot are you? Sheesh! :rofl:
 
Lance,
What a great, heads-up job you did! :cheerswine: Congrats...I, too, am glad everything worked out for you. Please keep us informed regarding the 'rest of the story' (regarding both the feds and failure mode).:yes:
 
I believe there is an AD on these mags. I'm not sure of the specifics, but I think there is a 500 hr. inspection and the mags need to be removed for the inspection.
 
N2212R said:
Oh come on, Lance!!!!

No ball of fire? No wing falling off? No yoke coming off in your hand? No oil all over the windscreen? No flocks of geese ripping off your vertical stab?

No embellishment to the story whatsoever! What kind of pilot are you? Sheesh! :rofl:
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I know, I know. The problem is I wrote this up just a couple of hours after it happened. I am sure that like fine wine this story will get better every year. I'd say by Gaston's it should be up to par.
 
Lance F said:
I know, I know. The problem is I wrote this up just a couple of hours after it happened. I am sure that like fine wine this story will get better every year. I'd say by Gaston's it should be up to par.
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Attaboy!!!!

Good job on the whole ordeal. Good use of using all your available resources.
 
Lance: Its better to be lucky than good. Apparently you were both. Fine job following procedure and using all your resources. Glad you ok!! Dave posted this above I think its a great question and it has been a question of mine as well.
Let'sgoflying! said:
Lance, how did you find judging the approach, energy management and all that. Ive always feared coming up short .....or zooming over the threshold at 200' and 120kts. Did you have to slip or S turn, make the turn early?
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Hope to see you at Expo
 
Lance F said:
Speculation...the Mooney has a Bendix D3000 mag. Both mags share a common cam that's driven from the back of the engine. If the shaft for this cam fails, then you go from 2 to zero mags in an instant. This would explain all the symptoms I can think of. However the mag is less than 400 hours old; something like this should not fail. I'll know more tomorrow and will report back.
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Great job, Lance. There's no other way to say it... you did what we all train to do, but hope we never have to do. Get back on the horse soon!

On the mag, I know that Lightspeed Ignition makes an electronic spark module that replaces one mechanical mag. http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Products/Ignition.htm

They don't have an STC for it, but say that a field approval is possible. My familiarity with it comes from Experimental (RV-series) aircraft, where it is quite popular.

If I could get the field approval, I'd be getting rid of the single-point failure and replacing one mag with a Lightspeed. They are well-proven in the experimental arena.
 
I finally got home at 11:30 this morning (Wednesday) after a safe flight from Farmville, VA. I immediately flew down to TPA for the Expo...on Delta. :p Will report more of what I learned on my return after the Expo. Hope to see some of you down here.
 
Lance,

My previous AC, a '78 Skylane RG, had the dual mag as well. I had an "impulse coupler spring" failure on an IFR departure one morning. Delcared "E", uneventful landing, 1 hour replacement of a $13 part!!!

That replacement became an item on my life limit list. When the mags were overhauled, the spring (not part of the o'haul reguirement!) was replaced.

Hope yours is as simple as mine was.
 
wesleyj said:
just keep in mind, the FEDS are there to nail you to the wall, not to help you.

only give them information that they ask for, dont volunteer anything.

for good measure, dont ever carry your logs with you.

congrats on the successful outcome of your emergency, sounds like you were well trained and well practiced.
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Not true. Not true at all.

I've had three forced landings, the last of which ended up as a bonafide crash into the trees at night.

What the "FEDS" did on that incident was help me nail the FBO mechanic's butt to the wall for pencil whipping paperwork and outright falsifying maintenance logs on the entire rental fleet--thus, probably saving some other poor pilot from an experience like mine. Second thing they did, was because of their investigation, settling with the FBO's insurance company was very easy, very quick and very satisfying.

THIRD thing they did, as Lance himself found out, was helped me to the ground. You see, those ATCs up there talking to you when it gets real quiet are FEDS themselves. The ATC that stayed with me all the way to the trees also had already called local fire department and rescue personnel and told them almost to the square yard where I was at--which probably saved my life.

Hardly a "there to nail you to the wall" scenario.

And Lance, I wrote you over on the other forum but will repeat here: Can't tell you truly and honestly how glad I am you walked away from this. And like you, I'm glad God is comfortable in the right seat, although there have been times I wished he'd been in the left seat. . .

My next-door hangar neighbor just got through installing some solid-state ignition mags on his Mooney. As you, and everyone that knows me knows, I'm not the most technical guy around, so I don't know all the specs on them. What I do know is that they have a redundant back up that if the electronic ignition fails, they automatically revert to the standard magneto-type function.

He just got through putting them in last night and test-hopped this morning. Ops check good. I'm sure you know far more about them than I do, but if you'd like any info, pictures after installation or anything else about them, just let me know and you got it.

Again, glad you're okay and good job.

-JD
 
Big Bird said:
"impulse coupler spring" failure on an IFR departure one morning. Delcared
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BB, I am trying to think through how this could happen. Can you help me picture it? The IC spring is only wound up and releasing repeatedly when the counterweights are not flinging outwards, engaging the case (if I have that part right) So while the engine is operating, the spring should be just spinning around in the case. I don't get it. Thanks. Maybe TD will know if you aren't sure.
 
Lance, Ron told me at EXPO that you had to make a precautionary landing on the Trip home. I just noted in this months issue of PILOT. They are looking for tales of precautionary landings. Just as I encouraged Dave to write up his Mexico exploits. I hope you will consider the same. A lot of folks can learn from your stories.
 
etsisk said:
Yep, all that glider time came in handy! I think all ppl's should have glider time - engines? we don't need no stinking engines!
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Good job, Lance! I was told (25 years ago) that I would be a better pilot if I did the glider thing first. I've had my PPL for two years, the glider idea is sounding better and better all the time. I'm glad it worked out well for you and thank you for sharing!
 
The glider rating helps you with the mechanics of adjusting the approach without power I think, but the big thing I found when soaring in poor lift conditons was it helps you mentally with the idea that you are coming down, whether you like it or not. I think denial is a big part of failed off-airport approaches. It interferes with doing a good job.

I just tried out the Forced Approach Sim posted by mpartovi
http://www.professionalpilot.ca/misc/index.htm#
its kinda cool. I landed within 4d of the wind and 163' of the 'optimal touchdown point', beginners luck, doubt I could repeat that.
 
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Lance, great job, sorry about the engine. Post up what they find out I'm curious about what went wrong.
 
p8cleared2land said:
Good job, Lance! I was told (25 years ago) that I would be a better pilot if I did the glider thing first. I've had my PPL for two years, the glider idea is sounding better and better all the time. I'm glad it worked out well for you and thank you for sharing!
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Whenever people in the left seat wax longingly for gliders, I pull the power and say "There's your glider, what're ya gonna do with it ?" Then, they go ahead and glide for a while, or glide to landing.

Seems like it would take away a lot of the sport, what with those high glide ratios the dedicated gliders have.
 
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Lance;

A great job; The time in gliders a real nice controller and your cool head made a perfect landing for you.

John
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Whenever people in the left seat wax longingly for gliders, I pull the power and say "There's your glider, what're ya gonna do with it ?" Then, they go ahead and glide for a while, or glide to landing.

Seems like it would take away a lot of the sport, what with those high glide ratios the dedicated gliders have.
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Nuh uh - not when you're a long way from home and there's not a cumulus cloud to be seen! Plus they work for speed and distance, and altitude, and working a course, etc. I've just take a few glider lessons - will do more soon - so I'm not the guy to ask, but still even I know there's a lot to do to challenge yourself!!
 
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