I am teaching myself to fly Cessna 150

[zaitcev]

After spending 80 or so hours and 180 landings in a Cherokee, I decided to check out the 150. Mr. Kanne, the checkout CFI, took me up, made me do engine-outs and stalls, then pronounced me fit to rent. But I felt it quite difficult, so I was getting to airport during lunch and taking the 150 around the pattern.

The biggest difficulty with the 150 is that it cannot be flown hands off when slow. In Cherokee you can put left hand on your belly, right on the throttle, give it a nudge with a rudder now and then, and just ride it in comfort to touchdown. But 150 is not stable: if it gets slow, it is going to get slower, and it snowballs from there. I found myself catching it with elevator all the time. Note that it's not a question of trim.

It is also extremely easy to flare too much, or too little, pop right back up, or stall above the runway. Reactions must be instantaneous, with just the right amount.

It's a lot of fun, but how is 150 supposed to be a basic trainer? Wow!

 

[tonycondon]

The 150 is a joy to fly because it is light on the controls, as you've noticed. it is not a truck like the Cherokee.

 

[taters]

It's a lot of fun, but how is 150 supposed to be a basic trainer? Wow!

Your bet, I always "made" people learn in the C150 vs. our Cherokee 180 when I was teaching if they could, if you can land the 150, you can land anything....it only gets easier from there.

 

[AdamZ]

...
It's a lot of fun, but how is 150 supposed to be a basic trainer? Wow!

Ah Pete great question! Caveat I have never flown in a 150 nor do I think I want to but I did learn on a Gruman Yankee AA1C and B. It was a bit of a squirrley plane and you did have to stay on top of it. After I got my private I transitioned to an Archer and later a Tiger and Warrior. I remember telling my CFI in the first Archer flight . WOW this is stable it flies itself. In short training on aircraft that are a bit less stable probably prepares you much better and puts you more in tune with the aircraft.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Is the plane in trim and rigged properly? In smooth air, I never had trouble flying a C-150 slow hands off. One of my more pleasant memories as a primary student was slow flight with a C150 into a 40K wind and hovering hands-off over the NJ countryside. It was like the Almighty let me sit in their easy chair for awhile. My CFI and I hovered above the Flemington circle for a good 10 minutes with our hands in our laps and feet off the pedals.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Your bet, I always "made" people learn in the C150 vs. our Cherokee 180 when I was teaching if they could, if you can land the 150, you can land anything....it only gets easier from there.

So that's why the Piper rides like a bus

The C150 plays with any puff of wind.

 

[Dan Thomas]

The Cherokee's engine is canted about five degrees to the right to eliminate most of the P factor, so it will practically fly itself at low speeds with little or no rudder input. The 150's engine is aligned with the airplane so the pilot has to learn to use his feet.

If the airplane won't hold a pitch attitude there's something wrong. Either the trim system is misrigged so it's running out of nose-up trim, or the CG is way off somehow (too much junk in the baggage compartment, usually), making it unstable. If it rolls off left or right and requires aileron input to keep the wings level and ball centered, the aft spar attach eccentrics need adjusting. If it rolls off on one wing and can be held level with the ball centered with just the rudder, there's a broken rudder bar spring on one side (very common) or someone has stuck a trim tab on the rudder and it's off some.

If the airplane balloons easily in the flare, the pilot is carrying way too much speed into the landing. Get the approach speed down to the POH value, get the throttle off and the nose coming up a little to slow the airplane before getting into ground effect, and it will behave better. A 150 can make spectacularly short landings if it's done right. The 150's flaps will let it approach really steep, too. Fun.

Dan

 

[MBDiagMan]

Capn'Jack said what I was going to say. Trim it! If a 150 isn't trimmed, it will work you to death and you still won't be able to hold accurate altitude or anything.

What you have discovered about the 150 as compared to the Cherokee is why there used to be some flight instructors that felt that you could NOT teach someone a stall in a Cherokee. The Cherokee is thought by some to be too easy to fly to be a good trainer.

One of the local instructors in my area has taught most all of his students to fly in Cherokees and Musketeers. He told me that the DPE that everyone uses in this area told him that he was "spoiling" his students.

I love the Cherokee and if it fit my very particular needs better, that's what I would own (sorry Cessna lovers.)

Doc

 

[Ryan7943]

I think it just depends what you learned to fly in. I can kiss the ground in a 172 and 152, but lately I've been renting a cherokee and I'm still trying to figure out how to landing the damn thing smoothly.

 

[MBDiagMan]

The Cherokee's engine is canted about five degrees to the right to eliminate most of the P factor, so it will practically fly itself at low speeds with little or no rudder input. The 150's engine is aligned with the airplane so the pilot has to learn to use his feet.

If the airplane won't hold a pitch attitude there's something wrong. Either the trim system is misrigged so it's running out of nose-up trim, or the CG is way off somehow (too much junk in the baggage compartment, usually), making it unstable. If it rolls off left or right and requires aileron input to keep the wings level and ball centered, the aft spar attach eccentrics need adjusting. If it rolls off on one wing and can be held level with the ball centered with just the rudder, there's a broken rudder bar spring on one side (very common) or someone has stuck a trim tab on the rudder and it's off some.

If the airplane balloons easily in the flare, the pilot is carrying way too much speed into the landing. Get the approach speed down to the POH value, get the throttle off and the nose coming up a little to slow the airplane before getting into ground effect, and it will behave better. A 150 can make spectacularly short landings if it's done right. The 150's flaps will let it approach really steep, too. Fun.

Dan

Most of my flying has been in a 150. My 140 (Cessna that is) flies much like a 150 when in the air. What I REALLY MISS from the 150 are the barn door flaps. The 140A has them, but my rag wing 140 has less effective flaps.

As you say, approach in a 150 with those barn doors all the way down is a hoot.

Doc

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Most of my flying has been in a 150. My 140 (Cessna that is) flies much like a 150 when in the air. What I REALLY MISS from the 150 are the barn door flaps. The 140A has them, but my rag wing 140 has less effective flaps.

As you say, approach in a 150 with those barn doors all the way down is a hoot.

Doc

It's hard to be too high in a 120/140. A pedal to the floor slip brings you down quite nicely. Just avoid slipping into a less than half full tank. Dunno about the 140 but in a Cessna 120 the indicated air speed was pretty much worthless in a slip.

 

[tonycondon]

the 140A has the fowler flaps of the 150? I thought it still had the plain flaps from the 140.

 

[eMKay]

I think it just depends what you learned to fly in. I can kiss the ground in a 172 and 152, but lately I've been renting a cherokee and I'm still trying to figure out how to landing the damn thing smoothly.

I'm the opposite, I started training in the Cherokee, then had to switch to the 172, now yesterday afternoon I flew the cherokee after a morning of pattern work in the 172, the cherokee is much easier to land, and since I've recently done stalls in both planes, it refuses to do a power on stall, and a power off stall it drops straight every time, the 172 however will drop a wing unless the rudder is used, never even touched it in the cherokee in stalls. That said I prefer the 172. for everything but these two things

 

[Jaybird180]

I'm the opposite, I started training in the Cherokee, then had to switch to the 172, now yesterday afternoon I flew the cherokee after a morning of pattern work in the 172, the cherokee is much easier to land, and since I've recently done stalls in both planes, it refuses to do a power on stall, and a power off stall it drops straight every time, the 172 however will drop a wing unless the rudder is used, never even touched it in the cherokee in stalls. That said I prefer the 172. for everything but these two things

Never flown a Cherokee, so it's tough for me to imagine. Are you saying that it will zoom straight up and over

 

[Clark1961]

Never flown a Cherokee, so it's tough for me to imagine. Are you saying that it will zoom straight up and over

A Cherokee likes to just mush along with power. It is possible to do a power on stall but it takes a bit of effort. The bigger the number after the "Cherokee" the harder it is to get the stall.

 

[MBDiagMan]

the 140A has the fowler flaps of the 150? I thought it still had the plain flaps from the 140.

That's correct. The 140A has metalized wings and the barn door flaps. It basically has 150 wings and flaps. The 140 has flaps that are all drag and no lift.

As Light & Sporty said though, you can slip it and bring it down like an elevator.

I REALLY wanted a 140A, but Miss Piggy came along with lots of extras, so she's in the hanger instead of a metal wing A model. The 140A is not super plentiful on the market.

Doc

 

[tonycondon]

i'd rather have the lower weight of the fabric wing. the only thing that could possibly be worse than a 140A would be a metallized 140. not only the extra weight of the metal wing but the extra drag of the double strut!

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Your bet, I always "made" people learn in the C150 vs. our Cherokee 180 when I was teaching if they could, if you can land the 150, you can land anything....it only gets easier from there.

No wonder when I fly the other planes I land better in them (I train in a 152).


Kimberly

 

[brcase]

That's correct. The 140A has metalized wings and the barn door flaps. It basically has 150 wings and flaps. The 140 has flaps that are all drag and no lift.

As Light & Sporty said though, you can slip it and bring it down like an elevator.

I REALLY wanted a 140A, but Miss Piggy came along with lots of extras, so she's in the hanger instead of a metal wing A model. The 140A is not super plentiful on the market.

Doc

The 140A I have been flying just has a simple plain flap like the 140. otherwise I think the wing is identical to the 150. I have never seen a 140A (or any 140 model) with a Fowler flap. Wish it did it could use the extra flaps with the 125HP engine installed in the one I am flying it doesn't want to come down even at idle power. Of course it does slip nicely.

Brian

 

[Everskyward]

Funny, I learned in a 150 and thought it was normal. I remember checking out in a 172 and thought it was a truck. Now I fly the ultimate truck-like Cessna. I think they forgot to install the power steering. It's heavier on the controls than anything I have flown, even airline simulators.

 

[Skylane81E]

I'm the opposite, I started training in the Cherokee, then had to switch to the 172, now yesterday afternoon I flew the cherokee after a morning of pattern work in the 172, the cherokee is much easier to land, and since I've recently done stalls in both planes, it refuses to do a power on stall, and a power off stall it drops straight every time, the 172 however will drop a wing unless the rudder is used, never even touched it in the cherokee in stalls. That said I prefer the 172. for everything but these two things

That's because you just drive a cherokee into the runway and the gear can make a hero out of you.

I've only had one "bad" landing in a cherokee and I still consider it one of my best because I remembered the gear despite the missing windsheild
(note to self, don't retract the flaps while she's floating down the runway)

 

[bluee]

I had the same problem. I did all my flight training in a Cherokee 180, I was getting ready for a checkride, and the owner sold the airplane. I had to go learn how to fly a 152, and I had a hard time at first. I thought the 152 was harder to fly than a Cherokee. But I mastered that and passed a checkride in it, but peeved at the extra time and money required for more training in the 152.

 

[Anthony]

I did all of my flight training in a C-152 then rented 152's and 150's after for a year or so, then transitioned to a Warrrior. Yes, its a bit of a difference, and somewhat easier to fly. I do think the little Cessnas are better trainers because while they need to get slow to stall, when they stall, they STALL, and usually drop a wing in the process, especially if you're not perfectly coordinated. They are still fun to fly little planes, but I like my Tiger better than all of them.

It just takes a little time and practice. No worries, they fly fine.

 

[Neal Howard]

You actually have to "fly" a C150.

The Cherokee... well you just kind of "herd" it along thru the sky. :wink2:

After logging about 800 hours in my Cherokee, I thought I knew how to fly an airplane, but then got into flying an RV-4 and an RV-8.

Talk about a rude awakening... I basically had to learn how to fly all over again (and not just the tailwheel part).

 

[zaitcev]

I should probably add that I had a few landings in Remos GX, thanks to NM Sport Aviation - and it did not feel like 150 at the back of the power curve, despite being even lighter (1250 lbs vs about 1520 lbs). GX has a predictable respose that I came to expect, just twitchy in the winds.

Another thing that gets me in C150 is the design of the pedals. I have a feeling that Cessna intended pilots to put their feet flat on the pedals, heels off the floor. If I try that, the rudder feel is much better. But I cannot fly like that, since my knees go way high and the weight of the legs pushes feet down. I have to rest my heels on the floor, toes low enough not to land with a brake locked, and there is a lot of friction then.

 

[azure]

If the airplane balloons easily in the flare, the pilot is carrying way too much speed into the landing. Get the approach speed down to the POH value, get the throttle off and the nose coming up a little to slow the airplane before getting into ground effect, and it will behave better. A 150 can make spectacularly short landings if it's done right. The 150's flaps will let it approach really steep, too. Fun.

+10. The shortest landings I ever made in any plane were on my first solo, in a 150, all three of them (there was really no wind). I was landing 15 at DET and I not only made the first turnoff at taxiway C, I needed a little power to expedite my exit of the runway (I was a student pilot and a little nervous about ticking ATC off). My CFI had to take my word for it; he was on the patio at the flight school, too far away to really see what I was doing. The trick was, indeed, to get rid of all excess speed. I was just a hair over 50 mph on final.

I kinda miss that plane... even if it was so beat up it was almost unairworthy.

 

[MSPAviator]

Another thing that gets me in C150 is the design of the pedals. I have a feeling that Cessna intended pilots to put their feet flat on the pedals, heels off the floor.

That's how I feel too. I have my feet flat on the pedals, heels off the floor as I turn base. During cruise and most other times, my feet are resting on the floor, not using the rudder much at all.

Try flying a Decathlon, it will make the 150 feel like flying a truck, and you really have to use the rudder.

Oh yeah, I can land a C152 in about 400ft. without trying too hard. It's not bragging if it's true, right?

 

[ajstoner21]

Interesting. I've never flown a 150 or 152, but now i think I might try to find one to see what its like!

 

[eMKay]

Never flown a Cherokee, so it's tough for me to imagine. Are you saying that it will zoom straight up and over

No it just sits there, nose in the sky, tooling along at 35kts and 0 fpm up or down

 

[Dan Thomas]

Another thing that gets me in C150 is the design of the pedals. I have a feeling that Cessna intended pilots to put their feet flat on the pedals, heels off the floor. If I try that, the rudder feel is much better. But I cannot fly like that, since my knees go way high and the weight of the legs pushes feet down. I have to rest my heels on the floor, toes low enough not to land with a brake locked, and there is a lot of friction then.

Common to older airplanes. When I was 18 or 20 most guys were around my height or a bit more or less (5'7"). The young bucks showing up at the school now are typically six feet or more and have big feet. Is this nutrition or hormones from the beef or what? Cessna would have made their airplanes to fit guys like me with smaller feet. We used to run two 150s and too many guys either had their knees up their nostrils with those long legs, and couldn't work the ailerons properly, and some were just too heavy. Or wide. 150s aren't for big people.

Dan

 

[denverpilot]

have a feeling that Cessna intended pilots to put their feet flat on the pedals, heels off the floor. If I try that, the rudder feel is much better. But I cannot fly like that, since my knees go way high and the weight of the legs pushes feet down. I have to rest my heels on the floor, toes low enough not to land with a brake locked, and there is a lot of friction then.

No no. Never feet up on the brakes until you actually want brakes. You can do it in-flight I guess if you want but that builds muscle memory for a really bad habit and you'll eventually flat-spot a tire.

I'm not quite following this "friction" thing. I think you're taller than I, but I'm 5' 11.5" and I adjust Cessna seats so the yoke full aft is just touching my tummy, and the "leg geometry" is what it is. Some Cessnas have up/down cranks on the seat and I tend to be a "crank it all the way up" guy, but it makes little difference on the rudder pedal angle.

When I press on the main portion of the pedals with the balls of my size 10.5 wide feet, I've never experienced "friction". During "Flight Controls Free and Correct" I press the left rudder to the stop, confirm looking out the back window, and run the elevator through full down to full up, looking and listening for interference, and repeat on the right rudder. Hmm actually now that I think about it, I'm on the toe-brakes during this because I don't trust any Cessna parking brake.

Are your feet really long or are you letting the sides of wide feet "drag" on the sides of things? I have wide feet and have to push them to the center "lip" of the pedals. Heels are down on the metal plate on the floor.

Shoe type is important too. They must flex. Tennies, Deck Shoes, some types of boots. But I tried flying in cowboy boots once, and that was a mistake. High heels and inflexibility made that more of a leg workout than I intended. Thighs were not happy with that choice of footwear since all you could do was lift the whole leg to move the pedals. Someone with smaller feet could bend their ankle I suppose.

 

[Neal Howard]

Cherokee 140

No it just sits there, nose in the sky, tooling along at 35kts and 0 fpm up or down

Or if loaded very lightly it just sits there with the nose way up high in a ridiculous attitude, stall light on solid with the yoke back against the stop, 40 MPH IAS, the whole aircraft shaking like a paint mixer from the buffet, hanging on the prop and still climbing at nearly 300 fpm

 

[eMKay]

Cherokee 140


Or if loaded very lightly it just sits there with the nose way up high in a ridiculous attitude, stall light on solid with the yoke back against the stop, 40 MPH IAS, the whole aircraft shaking like a paint mixer from the buffet, hanging on the prop and still climbing at nearly 300 fpm

Yea, like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpQzSS16IGY

 

[Skylane81E]

Yea, like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpQzSS16IGY

Looks like my 182, 0 IAS nose to the moon and just mush.

 

[gcd89]

the 172 however will drop a wing unless the rudder is used

Really? Which rudder do you use to correct it? Wherever the ball goes?

 

[eMKay]

Really? Which rudder do you use to correct it? Wherever the ball goes?

Well that's the thing, I've only been introduced to stalls in the 172, did each one a couple times. I don't even remember. In the cherokee I didn't use any. Next time I solo the 172 in the practice area I'll experiment with the rudder. I should need lots of right rudder right?

 

[zaitcev]

Really? Which rudder do you use to correct it? Wherever the ball goes?

Ball is much too slow and reacts erratically. I stop giving it much attention when the airplane slows to stall speed, and catch the dropping wing with top rudder.

 

[zaitcev]

Next time I solo the 172 in the practice area I'll experiment with the rudder.

Do not do that if you value your life. When I experimented with the rudder, I spun the airplane (it was a Cherokee though). Have a CFI up with you and review spin recovery procedures before the flight.

P.S. I blogged it here:
http://zaitcev.mee.nu/flying_spinning_a_cherokee
It's so... naive. Funny, really.

 

[fgcason]

Interesting. I've never flown a 150 or 152, but now i think I might try to find one to see what its like!

It's a kite.

 

[denverpilot]

Our 182 will hang at 0 indicated all day too. The Robbie kit makes it a noisy/shaky ride. (Stall fences.)

Wings level with rudder.

But I agree with the poster who said not to go doing this without spin training, or you're likely to get some.

Find a CFI who'll spin a Skyhawk and go see what it looks like first. It's not scary or even difficult. You just need to know how much altitude it chews up, etc.

Learning that the hard way at low altitude would be a bummer of an accident report for us all to read.

Some (many?) older Cessnas are way out of rig and will always drop a wing and try to break into a spin. Rentals especially.

You've seen the stories, busted lights, leaks, other maintenance issues, stories from all renters, and yet the aircraft is still out on the rental flight line and not in the shop. You think these deadbeat owners get the rigging checked often or even care?

Also remember Cessnas behave a bit differently aft-loaded. Showing off stalls to a fully loaded airplane full of bodies is a not-so-good way to find out how the ship behaves loaded aft of Utility Category limits back into Normal Category limits. There's a reason you need to be nose-heavy to spin a Skyhawk.

Be careful out there!