Hypothetical situation - accidentally busting restricted airspace

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MacFly

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MacFly
So....let’s just say that there’s this pilot who’s making his first x-country using GPS navigation (panel Garmin and Foreflight). He enters departure point and destination, but doesn’t notice that the route takes him across the corner, about 5 miles or 2 minutes, of a small military restricted area (let’s say it’s an Army National Guard base and it’s within the posted activity hours, but is not actually active). Let’s say that this pilot was VFR but not using Flight Following and didn’t notice that the route went through the Restricted Area until looking at the Foreflight map on the reciprocal leg, at which point he adjusted the course and flew around it. This hypothetical plane is squawking 1200, and has ADS-B. On landing, there is no message at the FBO to call ATC, and no phone calls in the next day or two.

How would this play out, typically? What’s the time frame? Call or letter from FSDO? License suspension? Slap on the wrist? Would they even notice? What would you do? Just curious. Asking for a friend....
 
What they said.

Guessing nobody is monitoring it and it will just go away but one never knows better to report it.
 
You’ll get a letter, email, phone call asking you to explain what happened, unless you did it with malice, you’ll be required to take some online training, case close.

The only way you get in trouble is if you’re a d*ck about it.

Tom
 
How do you know it’s not actually active? I’d say if your friend hasn’t heard back yet, there’s probably a good chance nothing will come from it. I’d probably knock out an ASRS but with the FAA’s compliance philosophy or I call “complacency philosophy” I’m sure you’ll go unscathed even without an ASRS.
 
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MacFly said:
So....let’s just say that there’s this pilot who’s making his first x-country using GPS navigation (panel Garmin and Foreflight). He enters departure point and destination, but doesn’t notice that the route takes him across the corner, about 5 miles or 2 minutes, of a small military restricted area (let’s say it’s an Army National Guard base and it’s within the posted activity hours, but is not actually active). Let’s say that this pilot was VFR but not using Flight Following and didn’t notice that the route went through the Restricted Area until looking at the Foreflight map on the reciprocal leg, at which point he adjusted the course and flew around it. This hypothetical plane is squawking 1200, and has ADS-B. On landing, there is no message at the FBO to call ATC, and no phone calls in the next day or two.

How would this play out, typically? What’s the time frame? Call or letter from FSDO? License suspension? Slap on the wrist? Would they even notice? What would you do? Just curious. Asking for a friend....
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upload_2020-5-31_15-59-20.jpeg
 
Definitely fill out the NASA form. I believe ATC has a certain amount of time to file a pilot deviation, so just because there was no phone call won't 100% mean you are in the clear. Usually, ATC will tag your aircraft on radar and see where you land.

There is no question you MUST fill out that form, it is not necessarily a get out of jail free card, but it will protect your certificate. If you were found positive for a pilot deviation, it can result in FAA administrative action (warning letter or notice, etc..). You can find out more details on the FAA website on what the infractions are, but as long as you file a NASA form you will avoid CERTIFICATE ACTION. Like stated above, don't lose sleep over it. It was an honest mistake, learn from it and be honest on the form. It is de-identified to begin with. The only was the FAA would know about it, is if ATC filed a pilot deviation. If not, the FAA will be unaware and your incident will be used for data purposes.

Point of the story, fill out that FORM! You will be fine.... no sweat.
 
Really what it comes down to is the activity or as you say “not active” status. Was the airspace turned over from the using agency (ANG) to the controlling agency (FAA)? Even if it weren’t there are certain types of activities that exclusion isn’t required. EOD explosions, ground weapons firing, aviation activity associated with those 2 activities, don’t require the typical 3 mile buffer from non-participants and the R airspace. So again, how do you know what exactly wasn’t going on in the R airspace?
 
What is the ASRS supposed to say, an incompetent pilot busted restricted airspace by not properly planning and monitoring their flight, please don’t punish me.
 
Velocity173 said:
Really what it comes down to is the activity or as you say “not active” status. Was the airspace turned over from the using agency (ANG) to the controlling agency (FAA)? Even if it weren’t there are certain types of activities that exclusion isn’t required. EOD explosions, ground weapons firing, aviation activity associated with those 2 activities, don’t require the typical 3 mile buffer from non-participants and the R airspace. So again, how do you know what exactly wasn’t going on in the R airspace?
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Hypothetically, let's say this pilot would have a buddy who works at Range Control. Nevertheless...the incursion would take place during published hours of activity.
 
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Have your hypothetical friend send in a hypothetical NASA form with a hypothetical $50 bill stapled to it. He'll hear no more about it.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.
 
MacFly said:
Hypothetically, let's say this pilot would have a buddy who works at Range Control. Nevertheless...the incursion would take place during published hours of activity.
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Lol! Well it helps to have a buddy that works range control but there’s Army ATC that usually work a restricted area as well. If all of those people don’t report the event to FAA ATC (the ones that report a PD) then you should be good.
 
I may or may not have once cut the corner of a military restricted airspace. It was very close, but I think I was on the correct side and nobody ever called. Still, was a reminder to be extra vigilant.

Hypothetically of course.
 
i never get why people dont get flight following
 
WannFly said:
i never get why people dont get flight following
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Are you one of those who thinks the entire country is covered by ATC RADAR at all flyable altitudes?
 
smv said:
Are you one of those who thinks the entire country is covered by ATC RADAR at all flyable altitudes?
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no but there are people who will by all means avoid flight following, i am not in that camp. there are spotty radar coverage out here too especially if i going to the cities, I will not go out of my way to get flight following, but i plan so that i can get flight following. a second set of eyes doesnt hurt
 
WannFly said:
no but there are people who will by all means avoid flight following, i am not in that camp. there are spotty radar coverage out here too especially if i going to the cities, I will not go out of my way to get flight following, but i plan so that i can get flight following. a second set of eyes doesnt hurt
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Good point. Just wanted to point out that there are still areas of the country that even IFR flights do not have 100% RADAR coverage... Last time I flew KHLN to KMAN a good part of it was not only sans RADAR, there were no radio comms either. It has been a few years, but I do not think the topography has changed much since then. :D
 
smv said:
Good point. Just wanted to point out that there are still areas of the country that even IFR flights do not have 100% RADAR coverage... Last time I flew KHLN to KMAN a good part of it was not only sans RADAR, there were no radio comms either. It has been a few years, but I do not think the topography has changed much since then. :D
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I should point out that if you are on flight following and you approach such an area without coverage, ATC will sometimes/often advise you of such. That could potentially be useful information.

And back to the OP, flight following will sometimes/often advise you of an R-space that you might otherwise bust.
 
If said pilot had been monitoring guard do you think ATC might have tried contacting him?

Also, he said restricted area, not MOA so what does being active or not have to do with the fact he entered without permission?
 
asicer said:
I should point out that if you are on flight following and you approach such an area without coverage, ATC will sometimes/often advise you of such. That could potentially be useful information.
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Indeed... Usually followe by "We can usually pick you up again at that altitude upon reaching xxxx. When you get there call us back on 123.45."
 
Sinistar said:
If said pilot had been monitoring guard do you think ATC might have tried contacting him?

Also, he said restricted area, not MOA so what does being active or not have to do with the fact he entered without permission?
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In my experience, unless a Restricted area is "Hot" it does not really exist. There are several R areas around here. A quick query to MSP Center will confirm if it is active or not.
 
For the Ripley restricted area ATC has always given me warnings well in advance which is awesome.

Back to a Restricted Area not being hot...I guess I dont know of any regulation that let's you treat it as not really existing if not hot/active? I thought flying through it no matter what state it is in is a violation unless you have ATC permission?
 
TommyG said:
What is the ASRS supposed to say, an incompetent pilot busted restricted airspace by not properly planning and monitoring their flight, please don’t punish me.
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I just put down what the form asks for.

By the way, reports are not revealed to the FAA or anyone else except in a de-identified format, unless you give it to them.
 
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Sinistar said:
Back to a Restricted Area not being hot...I guess I dont know of any regulation that let's you treat it as not really existing if not hot/active? I thought flying through it no matter what state it is in is a violation unless you have ATC permission?
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Kind of, mostly, sort of... I misspoke. Most of my Restricted penetrations have been IFR so sometimes I forget that VFR is a bit different. See AIM 3-4-3. If a Restricted area is not active and has been "released" to FAA ATC, there is no need for ATC to "clear" IFR Traffic into or through the airspace.

Still, if you are approaching an R area on an IFR flight plan, a simple query to ATC will confirm it is not active and that your vector will not violate any regulations.
 
ATC is not sitting there just hoping and waiting for someone to bust airspace so they can violate pilots. You think they really want to add to their workload?

Unless you caused an incident or diversion and your course was corrected, at most you probably had a controller just shaking their head if they even noticed.

If they wanted to track you down...they would have. Go forth and bust no more.

And as mentioned...Restricted areas are not always active even during published hours.
 
Your friend, quite frankly, is lucky to be alive. Most pilots who violate restricted airspace get shot down.
 
Sinistar said:
For the Ripley restricted area ATC has always given me warnings well in advance which is awesome.

Back to a Restricted Area not being hot...I guess I dont know of any regulation that let's you treat it as not really existing if not hot/active? I thought flying through it no matter what state it is in is a violation unless you have ATC permission?
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The active times of restricted areas are published on the chart; or, as also published on the chart, some may be designated active by NOTAM. What would be the point of distinguishing between an inactive and active restricted area if you need permission either way? When one is inactive, there is no restriction, so it might as well not exist.

14 CFR Part 73 Subpart B – Restricted Areas.
§73.13 No person may operate an aircraft within a restricted area between the designated altitudes and during the time of designation, unless he has the advance permission of (a) The using agency described in §73.15; or (b) The controlling agency described in §73.17.
 
woodchucker said:
Your friend, quite frankly, is lucky to be alive. Most pilots who violate restricted airspace get shot down.
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Huh? I'd be interested to hear an example or two of this? Never heard of this outcome.....I can't even fathom who would be doing the "shooting" in most examples of R airspace.
 
WannFly said:
no but there are people who will by all means avoid flight following, i am not in that camp. there are spotty radar coverage out here too especially if i going to the cities, I will not go out of my way to get flight following, but i plan so that i can get flight following. a second set of eyes doesnt hurt
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Speaking for myself, I love Flight Following, but this hypothetical flight time was about 50 minutes total, destination and back, in 10 mile visibility, no clouds, no ceiling, all in Class G airspace (except for the two airports and that pesky Restricted Area that got inexplicably overlooked in the otherwise meticulous flight planning and execution by this hypothetical dumbass pilot).

ASRS report was generated and sent before leaving the FBO. Hypothetically.
 
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MacFly said:
Speaking for myself, I love Flight Following, but this hypothetical flight time was about 50 minutes total, destination and back, in 10 mile visibility, no clouds, no ceiling, all in Class G airspace (except for the two airports and that pesky Restricted Area that got inexplicably overlooked in the otherwise meticulous flight planning and execution by this hypothetical dumbass pilot).

ASRS report was generated and sent before leaving the FBO. Hypothetically.
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Does foreflight have warning for type of airspace ahead? I know garmin pilot does. Something else to add to your arsenal.
 
35 AoA said:
Huh? I'd be interested to hear an example or two of this?
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A guy I used to sail for was an Army Air Corps B-24 instructor during WW-II. One day the one of the gun mounts in the waist broke and as the gunner fell backwards he kept his finger on the trigger and they got shot down.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
A guy I used to sail for was an Army Air Corps B-24 instructor during WW-II. One day the one of the gun mounts in the waist broke and as the gunner fell backwards he kept his finger on the trigger and they got shot down.
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Since you knew the instructor I presume they all got out safely. So did the gunner get credit for a confirmed kill?
 
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