How would you handle this as a vendor/your expectations as a customer?

EdFred

EdFred

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TL;DR: Manufacturer mislabeled leads causing a bunch of extra travel costs and work to be done on the plane that should have never happened.

Full story:

So, I bought a (manufacturer withheld) engine analyzer that was installed on my Comanche (O-540) by my A&P just before the Kentucky Dam Fly-In. Flew it there, no issues. While there, the #2 EGT shows erratic readings, bouncing from 1400 EGT to 200, to 1300, to 600, to 1400, to 80, to 1250, etc. Call my A&P and figure it is most likely a loose connection on the probe. Unable to make the fix at the fly-in I ignored it until I got back home. I redid the connection and still had the bouncy issues with it. So, I disconnect #2 and connect it to the #4 EGT channel, and the #4 probe to the #2 channel. The problem follows the probe, and now at this point it doesn't register any temp other than ambient. Talk to the factory, test it with a multi-meter and get an open line on the resistance test, they send a replacement under warranty and I install it. Boom, perfect. Rock solid readings.

Take my plane up the next day and now the #3 CHT is bouncing the same way the number #2 EGT was. "MF'er!" was my initial response. Land the plane check, the connections on the #3 CHT. All solid. But, just to be sure, I disconnect and reconnect the probe. Still have bounciness, 270...60...320...80...310...100...300...60. More expletives follow. Call the factory. They are sure it has to be a loose connection, because they don't see the CHT probes go bad. OK, back out to the airplane and I connect the #3 probe to the #1 channel, but I don't have enough wire to connect #1 probe to #3 channel. No big deal, I know #1 is good, will just see if the problem follows the probe. So, I have nothing connected to the channel for cylinder number 3, and I start the engine. Cylinder number 1 has a solid reading, with no bounciness, I start to curse because now it looks like it has to be a wiring issue behind the *&$^%#! *#$&#^&*! panel. Except, the #3 CHTs are also rock solid and agree with cylinders 1, 2, 5, and 6. Number 4 indicates as dead. More cursing.

I text my A&P to let him know he hooked the probes up wrong. Then realized that, no, he didn't. All of the EGT and CHT leads were labeled from the factory. So all that needed to be done on install was connect the correct probe to the correct wire and it should all be well. I checked the lead labels and sure enough, it said #3 was connected to #3 and #4 was connected to #4. Mislabeled at the factory. More expletives. Well what the hell else is labeled wrong? So I start the engine up, get everything warm, shut down, and disconnect and reconnect every probe one at a time to make sure that everything is going to the correct cylinder, because imagine the pain in the ass it would be trying to diagnose a cylinder problem when they aren't connected right. Well, all the EGTs are connected correctly, and the CHTs on 1, 2, 5, and 6 are correct. I guess 83.3% success is a B (maybe a B-), right?

So, I go through the process of de-cowling the airplane, carefully cutting all the zip ties, undoing all the Adel clamps, pulling the wire labeled #4 from the left side of the engine and re routing it all the way around to the right side of the engine. Relabel the lead. Do the same thing for #3. Connect the correct #4 to #4 and leave #3 open just to make sure, and I get readings on 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6 with 3 being dead. OK, good. Reconnect #3, zip tie and clamp everything back together. It's below minimums at the field so I pull it out of the hangar and run it to 2000+ RPM and there's no bounciness on any channels, EGT or CHT. Pull the plane back in, re-cowl, collect all my tools and leave. I most likely disturbed the connection on cylinder 4 when I was swapping channels on the 2 and 4 EGT probes, and by pure luck/accident discovered the 3 to 4 and 4 to 3 issue. It only took 8-10 hours of trouble shooting and wire rerouting, (not including the time on the initial bad #2 probe diagnosis and fix) a tank and a half of gas in the truck going out to the airport 4 straight nights after work, along with one extended lunch hour to finally get everything the way it's supposed to be.

So all that being said, if you knew about this as the manufacturer, what would to do make things right with a customer, and as a customer that had to deal with all of this would you expect the manufacturer to make things right with you?
 
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As a vendor, I would 1) Make it right with the customer, no matter the financial costs. I'd reimburse them for all their out-of-pocket costs, and try to find a way to compensate them for their frustration, maybe a significant discount (50% or more) on other products I sold they might want, or an Amazon/Sporty's gift card or something like that. 2) I'd collect all their feedback on what went wrong and make sure that all my documentation and procedures are corrected so this never happens again.

As a customer, I would want the above, but I'd expect nothing, only because so many manufacturers and vendors have such ****-poor customer service. It's amazing to me how few realize how expensive it is in the long run to fail to take care of your customers. These are people who have already bought your product and contributed to your revenue, only to treat them like an inconvenience because they're running into problems that you caused, and/or failed to correct.

Stellar customer service these days is so rare it's shocking when it does happen. Even if a vendor screws up, as long as they make it right and go above and beyond, I'd probably stick with them forever.
 
Since you fixed it yourself, it's trickier for a vendor to to do much except offer you some swag and a deep discount on other products. Maybe they can offer an upgrade to a better model, free extended warranty, etc. I'd at least expect someone with an appropriate level of authority to respond and let you know they're doubling up their QC efforts.

If you'd taken it back to the A&P and he had to go through all that work, I'd expect them to pay the bill for troubleshooting. Unless you're an A&P, it's difficult to convince anyone . If you are, write it up and send them a bill. I wouldn't expect cash.
 
EdFred said:
TL;DR: Manufacturer mislabeled leads causing a bunch of extra travel costs and work to be done on the plane that should have never happened.
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Unfortunately I've been down this same type of path on more occasions than I care to admit. I found if you stay more positive/proactive with the vendor the outcome tends to follow the same direction. In your case, you did the right thing by getting the vendor involved early. The only difference I would have done was once the wire mislabeling was noted I would have stopped and talked to the vendor but from an FYI point: "Hey I found the problem, wires mis-marked. I got pics but I'm concerned out any possible internal damage, etc" That puts the issue back in their ballpark. You could have also included "after 8 hours looking found wires..." to add to your case.

But even though you're past that point I would still contact the vendor with the same info. Make it informative to them that there is a problem with their equipment to include any possible future issues and save the correspondence. Then wait and see what happens. I can't guarantee it will work here but I've had 80% success rate over the years via extend warranty, reimbursements, or just a better relationship for future issues. But there are some real winner vendors out there who don't give a &^%$ who buys there stuff too.

However, I was told many years ago we all make mistakes and how we use that info defines a number things. If it was your product that failed how would you want it dealt with by you or the customer? Good troubleshooting though.
 
Eric Gleason said:
Since you fixed it yourself, it's trickier for a vendor to to do much except offer you some swag and a deep discount on other products. Maybe they can offer an upgrade to a better model, free extended warranty, etc. I'd at least expect someone with an appropriate level of authority to respond and let you know they're doubling up their QC efforts.

If you'd taken it back to the A&P and he had to go through all that work, I'd expect them to pay the bill for troubleshooting. Unless you're an A&P, it's difficult to convince anyone . If you are, write it up and send them a bill. I wouldn't expect cash.
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My time is worth something, and I suspect that is true of Ed as well. Whether or not I’m an A&P is irrelevant.

I’ve been in these situations before, and usually the manufacturer/vendor will do nothing (or close to it). Even the better ones. The attitude seems to be that mistakes happen, and it’s unreasonable for a customer to hold them accountable for an occasional mistake. Discounts on future purchases are nothing but a way to get you to pay (again) for their mistake. Unfortunately, most companies seem to be willing to risk the loss of customer(s) rather than do the right thing. There are standouts, but as LoneAspen mentioned, they seem to be rare these days.
 
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As a business owner we have had mistakes between us and customers that were on us. We did what was necessary to make it right, and depending on what it was that has varied from monetary reimbursement, us doing stuff after hours for the customer, paying for 3rd party analysis, etc...
 
At the very least they should follow up and make sure it's working as designed. During such communication I would tell them my actual damages (costs) and ask for some compensation like the ones mentioned previously. Even if I did the work myself, I'd describe it as X hours labor and they can approximate a value.

It never hurts to ask.
 
Frankly if they’re mislabeling wires because they don’t have a proper wire harness build jig in “manufacturing” how confident are you they can write code?

The only time in thousands of shipments of product our manufacturing group ever got wires backward, root cause was found to be a roll of green-with-yellow stripe wire had a very weak yellow stripe. And a photo of the offending harness was pulled from QC files ten minutes after the “incident”.

The field engineer still got the nickname of “sparky” though until he retired. May he now RIP.

We overnighted a complete product replacement, refunded the install costs, including their union labor, issued an emergency internal and external service bulletin, and extended their warranty on the new one... on a Saturday.

By Wednesday we had a full report on how the error happened with color photos of the hidden wire stripe during assembly of that specific unit and the damaged returned one.

We also changed the BOM to use better protection diodes since they were blown straight to hell.

We didn’t mess around when it was our fault. We sold a product that cost many orders of magnitude more than the typical avionics boutique manufacturer makes, but we were as boutique as it got. Manufacturing only had four staff members.

Wiring harnesses were made in jigs where any monkey could make one and not screw up making it or labeling it and digital photos were taken of all assemblies as they were built, all solder joints/boards, etc.

Or we might as well have called it the “hobby assembly department” and not Manufacturing.

They should be kissing your butt that you withheld their name. There’s only two real players in that market.

A wiring harness screw up is so bad it should have been an “all hands on deck” moment for both support and manufacturing. And all new gear shipped overnight the instant you notified them.

Who knows what else is screwed up? That’s how we would have handled it and thought about it. Manufacturing error wasn’t tolerated as what we wanted our customers to experience. Ever. But we also engineered away all the ways our manufacturing group could make mistakes like that.

A build jig that nobody could screw up even if they tried, in the manufacturing area, wasn’t optional. And two sets of eyeballs seeing everything that shipped along with the photos for proof.

Not that anybody does any of that, these days.
 
EdFred said:
TL;DR: Manufacturer mislabeled leads causing a bunch of extra travel costs and work to be done on the plane that should have never happened.

Full story:

So, I bought a (manufacturer withheld) engine analyzer that was installed on my Comanche (O-540) by my A&P just before the Kentucky Dam Fly-In. Flew it there, no issues. While there, the #2 EGT shows erratic readings, bouncing from 1400 EGT to 200, to 1300, to 600, to 1400, to 80, to 1250, etc. Call my A&P and figure it is most likely a loose connection on the probe. Unable to make the fix at the fly-in I ignored it until I got back home. I redid the connection and still had the bouncy issues with it. So, I disconnect #2 and connect it to the #4 EGT channel, and the #4 probe to the #2 channel. The problem follows the probe, and now at this point it doesn't register any temp other than ambient. Talk to the factory, test it with a multi-meter and get an open line on the resistance test, they send a replacement under warranty and I install it. Boom, perfect. Rock solid readings.

Take my plane up the next day and now the #3 CHT is bouncing the same way the number #2 EGT was. "MF'er!" was my initial response. Land the plane check, the connections on the #3 CHT. All solid. But, just to be sure, I disconnect and reconnect the probe. Still have bounciness, 270...60...320...80...310...100...300...60. More expletives follow. Call the factory. They are sure it has to be a loose connection, because they don't see the CHT probes go bad. OK, back out to the airplane and I connect the #3 probe to the #1 channel, but I don't have enough wire to connect #1 probe to #3 channel. No big deal, I know #1 is good, will just see if the problem follows the probe. So, I have nothing connected to the channel for cylinder number 3, and I start the engine. Cylinder number 1 has a solid reading, with no bounciness, I start to curse because now it looks like it has to be a wiring issue behind the *&$^%#! *#$&#^&*! panel. Except, the #3 CHTs are also rock solid and agree with cylinders 1, 2, 5, and 6. Number 4 indicates as dead. More cursing.

I text my A&P to let him know he hooked the probes up wrong. Then realized that, no, he didn't. All of the EGT and CHT leads were labeled from the factory. So all that needed to be done on install was connect the correct probe to the correct wire and it should all be well. I checked the lead labels and sure enough, it said #3 was connected to #3 and #4 was connected to #4. Mislabeled at the factory. More expletives. Well what the hell else is labeled wrong? So I start the engine up, get everything warm, shut down, and disconnect and reconnect every probe one at a time to make sure that everything is going to the correct cylinder, because imagine the pain in the ass it would be trying to diagnose a cylinder problem when they aren't connected right. Well, all the EGTs are connected correctly, and the CHTs on 1, 2, 5, and 6 are correct. I guess 83.3% success is a B (maybe a B-), right?

So, I go through the process of de-cowling the airplane, carefully cutting all the zip ties, undoing all the Adel clamps, pulling the wire labeled #4 from the left side of the engine and re routing it all the way around to the right side of the engine. Relabel the lead. Do the same thing for #3. Connect the correct #4 to #4 and leave #3 open just to make sure, and I get readings on 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6 with 3 being dead. OK, good. Reconnect #3, zip tie and clamp everything back together. It's below minimums at the field so I pull it out of the hangar and run it to 2000+ RPM and there's no bounciness on any channels, EGT or CHT. Pull the plane back in, re-cowl, collect all my tools and leave. I most likely disturbed the connection on cylinder 4 when I was swapping channels on the 2 and 4 EGT probes, and by pure luck/accident discovered the 3 to 4 and 4 to 3 issue. It only took 8-10 hours of trouble shooting and wire rerouting, (not including the time on the initial bad #2 probe diagnosis and fix) a tank and a half of gas in the truck going out to the airport 4 straight nights after work, along with one extended lunch hour to finally get everything the way it's supposed to be.

So all that being said, if you knew about this as the manufacturer, what would to do make things right with a customer, and as a customer that had to deal with all of this would you expect the manufacturer to make things right with you?
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I would make a full restitution for the hours you expended at a reasonable shop rate once you showed me in Part 43.3 and Appendix A where you were authorized to perform any of what you said you did.
 
Clip4 said:
I would make a full restitution for the hours you expended at a reasonable shop rate once you showed me in Part 43.3 and Appendix A where you were authorized to perform any of what you said you did.
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Clip4 said:
I would make a full restitution for the hours you expended at a reasonable shop rate once you showed me in Part 43.3 and Appendix A where you were authorized to perform any of what you said you did.
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I'm sure his work was supervised and approved by his A&P. Youse gotta problem wid dat?
 
You are helping them chase down quality control. Your serial number may not be the only one affected. As a customer I would like to be, but not expect to be, compensated for my discovery. Hopefully for the company and it’s other affected customers, you’ve averted some greater incident.
 
Chief Avionics hosed me on a deal like that once upon a time. They haven't been offered the opportunity to hose me a second time.
 
denverpilot said:
Frankly if they’re mislabeling wires because they don’t have a proper wire harness build jig in “manufacturing” how confident are you they can write code?
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Meh, it's only software. How hard can it be?
 
A&P came out and inspected my work on Friday in accordance with 43.3 d

(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation.



That doesn't mean he has to stand over your shoulder watching you every second that you perform the work. He can leave the shop he can go home he can do whatever and he can come back and check it out when you're done. I'm on one side of the field maintenance hangar on the other side of the field. I can do work on my airplane in my hangar or in the shop. When I'm done he checks it out and give me a thumbs up.

Maybe you should stop wandering around the forums looking like a clueless poster.
 
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EdFred said:
A&P came out and inspected my work on Friday in accordance with 43.3 d

(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation.



That doesn't mean he has to stand over your shoulder watching you every second that you perform the work. He can leave the shop he can go home he can do whatever and he can come back and check it out when you're done. I'm on one side of the field maintenance hangar on the other side of the field. I can do work on my airplane in my hangar or in the shop. When I'm done he checks it out and give me a thumbs up.

Maybe you should stop wandering around the forums looking like a clueless poster.
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If that your story, stick to it.
 
Clip4 said:
I figure any thing that is legal you would have no problem inviting an FAA inspector over to observe.
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Nobody said anything one way or the other about inviting an FAA inspector. Why are you assuming someone did? More to the point, what business is it of yours how Edfred works with his A&P, particularly on a system like an engine monitor?
 
Clip4 said:
I would make a full restitution for the hours you expended at a reasonable shop rate once you showed me in Part 43.3 and Appendix A where you were authorized to perform any of what you said you did.
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Do you think that company would put that on Ed? A customer already po'd at your product, so you're gonna tick him off more? I don't think a company would myself unless it was a large sum of compensation being demanded by the customer, then all bets off as company attorneys begin using their tricks.

I would submit time and expenses (gas for Ed's vehicle etc) and see what they counter with. Probably a discount on other products I would guess.
 
mscard88 said:
Do you think that company would put that on Ed? A customer already po'd at your product, so you're gonna tick him off more? I don't think a company would myself unless it was a large sum of compensation being demanded by the customer, then all bets off as company attorneys begin using their tricks.

I would submit time and expenses (gas for Ed's vehicle etc) and see what they counter with. Probably a discount on other products I would guess.
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I would not take the word of an uncertified mechanic that something was wrong with the product. The owner in this case claims the product was installed by a mechanic. He should have made the call.
 
Clip4 said:
I would not take the word of an uncertified mechanic that something was wrong with the product. The owner in this case claims the product was installed by a mechanic. He should have made the call.
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The owner paid for the defective product. The owner has every right to make the call.
 
I think nothing short of jail time for EdFred, don’t you? I mean, he bought a product that was not delivered in a functional state, paid to have it installed, then performed some troubleshooting that did NOT involve disassembling major complex components or flight instruments, nor the removal or replacement of anything at all. He swapped a few wire connections on an engine monitor and for that he should quite probably be hanged by the neck until dead or worse. What a jackwagon this guy is. (I’ll leave it up to the reader to determine to which guy I’m referring.) ;)
 
Mr. Clifford's (Clip4) post is very consistent with the rest of his post history lol.
 
So I cleaned up the original post and composed an email to...Electronics International....(because I know you were all wondering which one it was)

Here's the email I sent (minus my signature)
To whom it may concern:

So, I bought an MVP-50 through Gulf Coast Avionics, that was installed on my Comanche ([tail number redacted]) by my A&P just before the end of April. I flew it on a 2.5 hour flight from Michigan to Kentucky with no issues. While in Kentucky, the #2 EGT showed erratic readings, bouncing from 1400 EGT to 200, to 1300, to 600, to 1400, to 80, to 1250, etc. I called my A&P and we figured it was most likely a loose barrel connector to the probe. Unable to make the fix in Kentucky because I lacked a .050” Allen wrench, I ignored it until I got back home. I redid the connection and still had the bouncy issues with it. So, I disconnected #2 and connected it to the #4 EGT channel, and the #4 probe to the #2 channel. The problem follows the probe, and now at this point it doesn't register any temp other than ambient. I talked to Dave, I test it with a multi-meter and get an open line on the resistance test. He sent a replacement EGT probe and I installed it. Rock solid readings.

I took my plane up the next day and the #3 CHT is bouncing the same way the number #2 EGT was. A few expletives was my initial response to seeing this. I land the plane check, the connections on the #3 CHT. Both the connections were solid and firm. But, just to be sure, I disconnect and reconnect the probe. I still have erratic readings on the display: 270...60...320...80...310...100...300...60. More expletives follow. I talk to Dave again. He is sure it has to be a loose connection, because he said you don't see the CHT probes go bad. OK, back out to the airplane and I connect the #3 probe to the #1 channel, but I don't have enough wire to connect the #1 probe to #3 channel. No big deal, I know #1 is good, I will just see if the problem follows the probe. So, I have nothing connected to the channel for cylinder number 3, and I start the engine. Cylinder number 1 has a solid reading, with no erratic readings. More expletives follow because now it looks like it has to be a wiring issue behind the panel at the connection to the EDC. But, I notice the #3 CHT is rock solid and agrees with temperatures on cylinders 1, 2, 5, and 6. The number 4 cylinder indicates as dead. More expletives.

I call my A&P at home to let him know he hooked the probes up wrong. Then I realized that, no, he didn't. I call him back because I remembered on receiving inspection all of the EGT and CHT leads were labeled by EI before shipping. So, all that needed to be done on install was connect the correct probe to the correct wire leads and it should all be well. I checked the lead labels and, it showed #3 was connected to #3, and #4 was connected to #4. Mislabeled prior to shipment. More expletives. So I think “well what the else is labeled wrong?” So I start the engine up, get everything warm, shut down, and disconnect and reconnect every probe one at a time to make sure that everything is going to the correct cylinder, because imagine the problems it would be trying to diagnose a cylinder problem when they aren't connected right. Well, all the EGTs are connected correctly, and the CHTs on 1, 2, 5, and 6 are correct. I talked to Dave again about this and we decide the best course of action is to do what follows.

I go through the process of de-cowling the airplane, carefully cutting all the zip ties, undoing all the Adel clamps, pulling the wire labeled #4 from the left side of the engine and re-routing it all the way around to the right side of the engine. Re-label the lead. I repeat the process for #3. I connect the now correct #4 to #4 and leave #3 open just to make sure, and I get readings on 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6 with 3 being dead. OK, good. I reconnect #3, zip tie and clamp everything back together. It's below minimums at the field, so taking it up in the air isn’t an option. So I pull it out of the hangar and run it to 2000+ RPM and there's no erratic readings on any channels, EGT or CHT. Pull the plane back in, re-cowl, collect all my tools and leave. I most likely disturbed the connection on cylinder 4 when I was swapping channels on the 2 and 4 EGT probes, and by pure luck/accident discovered the 3 to 4 and 4 to 3 issue.

Dave was great on the phone through this process, and helped me with a few other things (screen set up, changing display fields, etc…)

It took 8-10 hours of trouble-shooting and wire rerouting, (not including the time on the initial bad #2 probe diagnosis and fix) a tank and a half of gas in the truck going out to the airport 4 straight nights after work, along with one extended lunch hour to finally get everything the way it's supposed to be. I know that as a business owner myself if we do something as a company (which we have in the past, we all make mistakes, no one is perfect) like this which causes trouble for my customers, we do whatever we can to make it right for them, and make sure the customer is satisfied and happy.
 
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Last night I got this email in return from the president of the company (minus her signature):

Hello, Edward:


Your email has been forwarded to me for response. I wasn't in the office yesterday when I believe we received your email, or I would have gotten back to you sooner. To begin with, we're sincerely sorry for MVP-50 issues you've encountered. I literally am sad any time one of our customers has a problem.


The first thing we did once I read your email was to go to our Production Manager and have him take us through and evaluate our cable assembly testing and quality control procedures, which we audit frequently. Although it sounds as if your wires were mislabeled, I'm stumped how this got through our testing and QC procedures, which really are very thorough. However, as one of our cable assemblers and testers pointed out, no matter HOW thorough all of us try to be, and no matter how high our care factor is (and it is very high), every one of us is capable of making an occasional mistake. Even so, with the double checking which is in place, it's hard to accept that something so elementary and important got past two of our staff. The cable builder/tester who made the mistake came to me again later and explained that a month or two ago when his mom was in intensive care and he was spending nights in the hospital, he was so tired he may have made a mistake and he felt terrible. He wasn't 'in trouble' with us because we only know of one other mistake like this one which he's made in several years of building and testing thousands of these specific cables. Nevertheless, today we pulled ALL of our cables that are in stock, which had already been tested and QC'd so that we could RE-test and RE-QC every single one of them. We have not yet found any additional problems, and I'm still stumped how your mislabeled cables got past us.


Looking at your MVP-50 order, we saw that although you were given a Rebate of $400 on the purchase of your instrument, you 'missed' our Sun 'n Fun Rebate by a few weeks. While we can't monetarily compensate for troubleshooting issues, etc., what we want to do in your case is to send to you the difference between the Rebate we gave to you and what the Sun 'n Fun Rebate was. Since the Sun 'n Fun Rebate was $800 on any MVP purchase, we can send to you a $400 additional Rebate. I hope this will be some assurance to you that we care a great deal about our customers and we make every effort possible to take good care of them.


The reason we don't and can't pay for troubleshooting time is simple. Usually, the problems we find stem from installation issues. For example, even though we sent to you pre-labeled wires, many installers shorten wires and for that or other reasons, remove our labels and affix their own labels (sometimes incorrectly). We used to sometimes be told that our EGT probe tips 'fell off'' which was impossible since the tip wasn't a 'separate' part of the probe tube. We eventually found out time that in spite of installation instructions clearly stating to NOT install a probe in a slip joint, that's exactly what was happening and then, of course, the end of the EGT tube was sheared off. Sometimes cables were shortened or lengthened and inadequate or poor connectors were put back on, replacing our own connectors. None of this is to say that the issues you've experienced were anything but our mistake, but only to say that it's impossible for us to know all that happened during installation or operation or troubleshooting, etc., and we can't pay for everyone's time and efforts, especially since most of the issues were not of our making. All we CAN do is to try to be sure we've designed and built the very best instruments and accessories possible, and we do sincerely make every attempt to do that.


Oh ... before I forget ... you may want to consider using LocTight (or thread lock? or whatever it's called) to be sure your connectors keep tightly connected. This is what some pilots and mechanics have told us they always do with just about any connection made, just to be sure.


Thank you for being very polite in your email, even when explaining the problems you experienced and your understandable frustration. The information you provided was given in a very helpful manner, which we appreciated.


I wish you happy, safe flying and only good experiences with your MVP-50 from here on out.


I decided to follow up with a phone call this afternoon and had a very positive, extremely pleasant conversation with her. We went over a few things, we both went into a bit more detail (a lot more), talked about the industry, talked about more than *just* the MVP problem (well quite a few things since it was a 30+ minute conversation), had a few laughs. I said they were easily exceeding my expectations, and I was happy just getting a human, non-canned response. I said I posted a slightly more colorful version of the email on a message board and asked if it was OK to post her response - which she said no, and I said eff you I'm going to anyway. Just kidding, she said absolutely that would be fine. I was thanked for being gracious about the whole ordeal, I told her not to let the guys out back beat themselves up because we are all people and not robots, and no matter what QC is in place, something will always slip through no matter the safeguards.

At the end of the day, they have a more than satisfied customer, and one who will purchase again from them in the future if I ever sell the Comanche and get another plane.
 
I had to break the previous into two posts because I got denverpiloted...

"Your message is too long, please limit it to 10000 characters or less"
 
Pleased to hear you had a positive encounter with EI's top banana.

Once you have more time behind the MVP-50, I'd interested in your review of the product.
 
I have never had any dealings with EI that wasn't extremely satisfactory. IMO, they take customer satisfaction VERY seriously.

If I would have known this was an EI product, I would have suggested you email Mac Speed directly.
 
A long time ago in a ship painted Haze Grey, we had an ICman (Interior Communication Specialist) who miswired even the simplest of jobs. It got so bad that his attitude and disciplinary record went sideways and eventually this poor kid was discharged from the US Navy with the recommendation that he should not be allowed to re-enlist.

The exit physical discovered that this kid was severely color blind. No wonder he couldn't connect the lime-green lead to light grey one, etc. etc. It was the quality of the entrance physical that F-ed up this kid for the rest of his life.
Relevance to this string of posts: minimal. just sayin.

-Skip
 
Sounds like a (rare) example of excellent customer service, and a real human being on the other side caring about their customers. Glad to hear they investigated and compensated you for some of your time and trouble!
 
Clip4 said:
I figure any thing that is legal you would have no problem inviting an FAA inspector over to observe.
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When I find that mythical FSDO that is consistent with others across the country, with inspectors that apply the same standards, interpretations, and non-subjective evaluations, who can discern the essential from the trivial, then yeah, sure. . .no,wait - maybe not?

I don't give a rat's ass what is legal, beyond avoiding Fed rath; I care about what keeps my precious pink behind functioning as a living, breathing member of pilotus americanus. Yes, often that does coincide very closely with the "legal" ink stains clutched in the hands of myopic bureaucrats; I'm not so stupid as to think all, or even most, of what they produce is without value. And not so naive as to equate "legal" with "wise".

Some Feds are concientious public servants, aides to aviation, and deeply committed to doing the job right. And a few are solar powered shi**ing machines, profoundly aware they aren't accountable beyond the walls that enclose them.

From which group will I get a RSVP?
 
Glad you had a successful outcome; I love my MVP50, and have received excellent support from EI.
 
JGoodish said:
My time is worth something, and I suspect that is true of Ed as well. Whether or not I’m an A&P is irrelevant.
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I don’t disagreee that your time is worth something, I just wouldn’t expect to get reimbursed for time spent at a task for which you have no credentials.

The response from EI shows that they share that philosophy, and gave a response on the order of what I would have expected. The extra rebate was a nice gesture on their part. Would they have made up a new rebate for him if they didn’t already have one in place? My experience says probably not. They would have done something else nice for him, but also not on the order of 8-10 hours of whatever Ed gets for his professional time.
 
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Eric Gleason said:
I don’t disagreee that your time is worth something, I just wouldn’t expect to get reimbursed for time spent at a task for which you have no credentials.

The response from EI shows that they share that philosophy, and gave a response on the order of what I would have expected. The extra rebate was a nice gesture on their part. Would they have made up a new rebate for him if they didn’t already have one in place? My experience says probably not. They would have done something else nice for him, but also not on the order of 8-10 hours of whatever Ed gets for his professional time.
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My credentials, or lack thereof, are completely irrelevant to the claim. In almost every case, a manufacturer will be the least flexible on reimbursement of labor expenses, and often a statement to this effect is printed in warranty and other terms and conditions documentation; I have never seen one conditioned on the credentials of the person doing the work, because it doesn't matter. EI's response to Ed is pretty clear in that had he paid an A&P for the work, their position on the matter would be no different.

It is nice that EI engaged with Ed, and found a way to provide some level of compensation. Usually, that's all it take to make things right. It's amazing how many businesses these days are willing to double down on defense and create a really unhappy customer when a token gesture could swing things the other way. Glad that things worked out for both EI and Ed.
 
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