How to solve the US pilot shortage

In IT there is/was a popular saying.
Do you have 25 years experience or one year of experience repeated twenty five times?

That's funny...I've never heard that in IT. But I've heard it in aviation (some variation on: "do you have 500 hours logged, or one hour, five hundred times?") and in SCUBA diving ("Do you have 500 dives logged, or one dive, five hundred times?"). I'll bet the same concept is expressed similarly in plenty of other areas.
 
That's funny...I've never heard that in IT. But I've heard it in aviation (some variation on: "do you have 500 hours logged, or one hour, five hundred times?") and in SCUBA diving ("Do you have 500 dives logged, or one dive, five hundred times?"). I'll bet the same concept is expressed similarly in plenty of other areas.
It’s been a saying in aviation since at least the 1970s.
 
Disagree with what? The legacies make their money off of connecting passengers. They're not going to fly hub-spoke-hub just so the crews can be home at night. It has to be spoke-hub-spoke or it won't work financially.

I disagree that the airlines cannot restructure the majority of flights to be out and back; out of a hub.
This could be done to attract the next generation of pilots as part of a work/life balance. Which is becoming a larger factor in employment and employee retention.
However, this is only a belief on my part. I am not in the industry, so....

Tim
 
However, unless the CFI is majorly abusing the students, like practicing stalls 51nm away, or doing everything at night, they won’t meet the real 1500hr ATP mins, by the time they have all the other boxes checked as a CFI they’ll probably have 2500hrs.

The nice thing is the ATP forces a good amount of the puppies out of the mill

Two recent CFIs I used for a refresher had around 1700 hours total each; one has gone charter and loves it, the other is now in a regional airline. We discussed total time, I have more twin time, and more night, and more flights over an hour which do not end at the same airport they departed from. By a large margin, and I only have 800 hours.
This is very typical, and this is what the article talked about.

Tim
 
You just don’t get it. If the airlines can hire lower time pilots, that means LESS pilots to fly GA, not more. Sure, I can hire a dozen 300 hour copilots tomorrow, but the still have to fly with someone. At minimum, Part 135 requires 1200 hours to be PIC.

Dave, I just lost my job at a part 91 depart as a maintenance manager. We operated a CL300. I have my PPL and currently working on my instrument and I am looking to get my commercial without doing any CFI flying. Would the company you work for hire someone like me when I get my commercial with the minimum hours? I am not looking to go near a 121 operation. Been at 135 and 91 most of my entire career and I like it better than 121.
I am asking because I am thinking of going to get my rating and quit turning wrenches. The problem I would face is my age. I am 48.
 
The other issue is the bail outs, when bad business decisions don’t have consequences there is little motivation for the companies to change their behavior.

As a simple pilot everything I do has a consequence, every small mistake, no excuses and zero tolerance to the grave, it is bothersome to be held to a higher standard than the big 3.
The bail out money wasn’t because of management decisions. Well… not airline management.
 
I've never seen such stats published. Where did you read that?

Read the article which started the whole thread, that is a recent one. The airlines are advocating for more programs to expand the exceptions. I have seen it in other articles.


Tim
 
I disagree that the airlines cannot restructure the majority of flights to be out and back; out of a hub.
This could be done to attract the next generation of pilots as part of a work/life balance. Which is becoming a larger factor in employment and employee retention.
However, this is only a belief on my part. I am not in the industry, so....

Tim
For me, I average between 15-18 days off per month. I’d much rather do a 4 day trip rather than drive in every day to the airport. We have more time off than pretty much every profession out there. I may not be home every night but when I’m off, I’m off. I don’t have to take any work home with me which is nice. Just my opinion. I also some people who love day trips and are able to bid them the whole month. That’s not possible with my plane
 
I disagree that the airlines cannot restructure the majority of flights to be out and back; out of a hub.
This could be done to attract the next generation of pilots as part of a work/life balance. Which is becoming a larger factor in employment and employee retention.
However, this is only a belief on my part. I am not in the industry, so....

Tim
I understand that it seems to be possible but it’s not. It would be pretty awesome. Allegiant is really a poor example to site. They don’t offer the same service as larger legacy airlines. It works ok in their little niche.
 
For me, I average between 15-18 days off per month. I’d much rather do a 4 day trip rather than drive in every day to the airport. We have more time off than pretty much every profession out there. I may not be home every night but when I’m off, I’m off. I don’t have to take any work home with me which is nice. Just my opinion. I also some people who love day trips and are able to bid them the whole month. That’s not possible with my plane

Now that my youngest graduates HS in a couple days, I would love that schedule. When the kids were young, not so much.
What I am seeing even in the IT industry is some startups or other efforts trying to appeal to young bright kids are doing all sorts of things to increase consecutive downtime. I know one startup that does four day work weeks, Monday - Thursday, ten to twelve hours a day.
An acquaintance is working at a company which is trying 20 days on, eight days off with a select group.... All sorts of crazy things.

Tim
 
Dave, I just lost my job at a part 91 depart as a maintenance manager. We operated a CL300. I have my PPL and currently working on my instrument and I am looking to get my commercial without doing any CFI flying. Would the company you work for hire someone like me when I get my commercial with the minimum hours? I am not looking to go near a 121 operation. Been at 135 and 91 most of my entire career and I like it better than 121.
I am asking because I am thinking of going to get my rating and quit turning wrenches. The problem I would face is my age. I am 48.

We do, but usually it’s someone we have a relationship with, like one of our line guys or a local CFI. In this part of the industry, it really is who you know. There is no substitute for getting out to the airport and networking. You have to become a face instead of a resume in a stack. Like my first boss told me back in 1990, “I assume everyone can fly an airplane, but do I want to go on a four day trip with them”.
 
Read the article which started the whole thread, that is a recent one. The airlines are advocating for more programs to expand the exceptions. I have seen it in other articles.


Tim
Just as a clarification, they’re not trying to “expand the exceptions”, they’re trying to waive regulatory requirements, and the one I saw was claiming to be able to provide the equivalent of 5 years’ military aviation experience in less than a year.

Kinda’ like the good old days when you could upgrade at 1500 hours, just in time to learn to fly in icing as a captain when neither you nor your copilot had seen them before…or if you upgraded on the other side of the year, learning to fly thunderstorms the same way.
 
I disagree that the airlines cannot restructure the majority of flights to be out and back; out of a hub.
Airlines are free to do exactly that, as Allegiant does. Nothing in the union contracts prevents it. They don't do it because it is not efficient to do it. The pilot trips are built by computers to maximize crew productivity. The aircraft are routed to maximize aircraft utilization. Layovers are not efficient, they are an extra cost. The scheduling software is already trying to minimize those costs, to the extent possible, The best solution does not result in schedules that are mostly day trips.

It's very easy to come up with solutions to problems when you don't know the details of how the system works.

Read the article which started the whole thread, that is a recent one. The airlines are advocating for more programs to expand the exceptions. I have seen it in other articles.
That's Republic. They want their training academy to qualify under the 750 TT rATP tract that is currently only available to military trained pilots. Their program in nowhere near as demanding as military training and experience. I think they know that. I think they're negotiating and hoping to qualify under the 1,250TT tract currently reserved for accredited two-year university aviation programs.
 
So you’re a “same hours 1500 times” kinda guy?

see Larry’s post above for a more structured explanation.

Oh my sweet summer child, no.

For one if you fly long enough, you will learn there are no two flights exactly the same

If your comment was that I was flying in circles for a 1500hr ATP, for one that’s impossible if you read the regs
For two, I built my hours like many, smaller planes, to working in small planes, bigger planes, turbine, more crew, and so on
 
I disagree that the airlines cannot restructure the majority of flights to be out and back; out of a hub.
The problem with that is if QOL is the goal, how many pilots would choose to live within daily commute distance of an airline hub?
 
The bail out money wasn’t because of management decisions. Well… not airline management.

which round of bailout money?

Well run companies tend to not need bailouts.
 
Oh my sweet summer child, no.

For one if you fly long enough, you will learn there are no two flights exactly the same

If your comment was that I was flying in circles for a 1500hr ATP, for one that’s impossible if you read the regs
For two, I built my hours like many, smaller planes, to working in small planes, bigger planes, turbine, more crew, and so on
Then why are you arguing against a diverse aviation education?
 
We do, but usually it’s someone we have a relationship with, like one of our line guys or a local CFI. In this part of the industry, it really is who you know. There is no substitute for getting out to the airport and networking. You have to become a face instead of a resume in a stack. Like my first boss told me back in 1990, “I assume everyone can fly an airplane, but do I want to go on a four day trip with them”.
I hear you. Fortunately I know a lot of people through the 26+ years in the industry. Especially in the Northeast OH area where I am located. It's my age that has me concerned the most.
Thanks for the reply.
 
I hear you. Fortunately I know a lot of people through the 26+ years in the industry. Especially in the Northeast OH area where I am located. It's my age that has me concerned the most.
Thanks for the reply.

Age isn’t an issue, it’s can you afford to support yourself until you can build more time.
 
Then why are you arguing against a diverse aviation education?

I think it’s a issue of we have different definitions of what “aviation education” is.

I think you learn more in the actual airplane, flying, learning to fly the line, learning about flying when it’s not just for you, flying with weather, ground handling, doing all the misc non flight stuff you would as a greenhorn like helping out in the shop, or talking to pax about weight and balance issues and learning how to say no without ****ing people off, while still having your words end in a period.

Cutting that experience short because you sat in a classroom at a overpriced school, I don’t think that experience is worth the same, let alone more, than the best teacher…experience.

I remember seeing a add for a aviation professor at one of these schools, the aviation experience was near nil, but they did want a masters and a bunch of HR stuff that has nothing to do with flying.
 
I think it’s a issue of we have different definitions of what “aviation education” is.

I think you learn more in the actual airplane, flying, learning to fly the line, learning about flying when it’s not just for you, flying with weather, ground handling, do all the misc stuff you would as a greenhorn

Cutting that experience short because you sat in a classroom at a overpriced school, I don’t think that experience is worth the same, let alone more, than the best teacher…experience.
Maybe if the FAA mandated specific requirements for all of those things you (and I) did before the ATP, it would make sense, but the fact is that the majority of pilots today can’t or won’t do that…hence this thread.

I just had a guy with a logbook that looks a lot like you describe bust his ATP oral because, among other things, he didn’t have the Private Pilot knowledge level that would even allow discussion of the ATP oral tasks.

If you waste the time in the seat, it’s no good, either. You need knowledge that you can apply in the airplane.
 
The same argument on aviation education could probably be made in any setting. We've put such an emphasis on college and have shunned real world experience. I know someone who has done payroll at a school district who would have been promoted but because they lack a degree, any degree they're not eligible. So someone with no experience but has that degree got hired. And the person with the experience ended up doing the new hires job due to incompetence.
 
Maybe if the FAA mandated specific requirements for all of those things you (and I) did before the ATP, it would make sense, but the fact is that the majority of pilots today can’t or won’t do that…hence this thread.

I just had a guy with a logbook that looks a lot like you describe bust his ATP oral because, among other things, he didn’t have the Private Pilot knowledge level that would even allow discussion of the ATP oral tasks.

If you waste the time in the seat, it’s no good, either. You need knowledge that you can apply in the airplane.

Sounds like he didn’t prep, there are things on a oral that don’t often translate into the wild.

I agree, but I don’t think giving the FAA more power will fix anything, this is something operators and insurance needs to do, maybe replace the HR types with actual pilots. “What’s your greatest weakness” GTFO with that
 
Sounds like he didn’t prep, there are things on a oral that don’t often translate into the wild.
like Va, for example. ;)

or maybe when the examiner stands in front of ground school, calls you by name, and says “this will be on your oral.”
I agree, but I don’t think giving the FAA more power will fix anything, this is something operators and insurance needs to do, maybe replace the HR types with actual pilots. “What’s your greatest weakness” GTFO with that
I certainly don’t advocate regulating it…just like everything else, starting with knowledge tests, it becomes just another box to check unless the pilot chooses to learn. I don’t think insurance is the answer, either, and operators are generally going to go for the fastest, cheapest option. It boils down to the Pilot choosing to learn, and finding resources to do so.
 
like Va, for example. ;)

or maybe when the examiner stands in front of ground school, calls you by name, and says “this will be on your oral.”

I certainly don’t advocate regulating it…just like everything else, starting with knowledge tests, it becomes just another box to check unless the pilot chooses to learn. I don’t think insurance is the answer, either, and operators are generally going to go for the fastest, cheapest option. It boils down to the Pilot choosing to learn, and finding resources to do so.

If he didn’t know Va he was just a idiot, got them in every profession, medical to mechanics.

I still don’t think more classroom time is a reason to lower the entry to becoming a ATP.
 
I still don’t think more classroom time is a reason to lower the entry to becoming a ATP.
I’ve seen the results, and I think it can be reasonably done. But there are people who just shouldn’t be in the cockpit with any background combination, so I take ‘em as I get ‘em.

I think it’s more about the Pilot than which set of requirements he meets.
 
This isn’t the answer

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Trying to import foreign pilots to work for below poverty wages, some companies should fail.
 
which round of bailout money?

Well run companies tend to not need bailouts.
Which one are you talking about?
I’m not saying there is not room for improvement but when the government shuts down your revenue stream overnight and the return of your business is measured in years I think you’re being a little bit inaccurate in your conclusions.
 
I’ve seen the results, and I think it can be reasonably done. But there are people who just shouldn’t be in the cockpit with any background combination, so I take ‘em as I get ‘em.

I think it’s more about the Pilot than which set of requirements he meets.
Not to mention the airline pilots hired in the good old USA back in the 60’s that had zero hours.

It’s not hours.
 
I agree, but I don’t think giving the FAA more power will fix anything, this is something operators and insurance needs to do, maybe replace the HR types with actual pilots. “What’s your greatest weakness” GTFO with that


Answer: Honesty
HR: I don’t think that’s a weakness:
Answer: I don’t care what you think.
 
So what dollar amount would get you to file an application?

I’d guess, half on half off sched, 100k FO min guarantee, 150k capt, 1st year regional


Outside of that, go blame Putin or covid or what ever for why you suck, maybe hold your corp breath for those $16,000 a year poverty Aussies
 
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However, unless the CFI is majorly abusing the students, like practicing stalls 51nm away, or doing everything at night, they won’t meet the real 1500hr ATP mins, by the time they have all the other boxes checked as a CFI they’ll probably have 2500hrs.

The nice thing is the ATP forces a good amount of the puppies out of the mill

Sure, but you can also get an R-ATP at 1500 without the X/C time needed...
 
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