Without a bachelors I can tell you first hand, yes.
Interesting people are getting to the ATP level without ending up in a turbine at some point, that was normally the 1,000hr job
How to solve the US pilot shortage
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Without a bachelors I can tell you first hand, yes.
Interesting people are getting to the ATP level without ending up in a turbine at some point, that was normally the 1,000hr job
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Piperonca
It occurs to me that flying isn’t about the money. Having been in aviation in one form or another for most of a century, and my family longer than that, I say it’s a feast or famine occupation. Some strike it rich, etc. Good for them. You’re asking what the roulette wheel will turn up before it’s spun (terrible). If in your heart you want to fly, go for it. I didn’t have a degree when I started, either.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I've paid for almost all my flying. Only some freelance instructing on the side.
Oh, for me, any job is about the money first. I do my fun stuff outside of work. Even if I went to the airlines, the first question would be, when will I be ahead $$ of where I am now?
Makes sense
When a GA pilot tries to explain to an airline pilot how much their job sucks
You have that backwards
There is, as the airline call it, a “pilot shortage” or more honestly put a lack of pilots who WANT to GET INTO the 121 world. That is the issue.
I’m not sure I’d say GA, that’s a wide net, but qualified pilots who hold or could get a ATP THAT is who you are trying to get to and attract as a airline.
Who cares how to attract the pilots who already work for you, they already work for you, their opinions on what would draw someone there are mostly moot
The question is the tons (and we have TONS) of QUALIFIED pilots in the US who don’t find the INITIAL OFFERINGS of 121 life worth it, those are the people who matter. So what do they need to do to get them to come work for the airlines, because the bad pay and schedule for a carrot on a stick of a Sr major seat ain’t cutting it.
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3G
Not being a hater here, but I will not work in a union shop in any industry for any reason.
ETA: if the management/labor relationship is that bad to need labor to organize, that’s not a place I want to be.
Larry in TN
En-Route
You seem to have lost the context of what I'm talking about.
That context is your statement about "super low regional pay". Regional pay has not been "super low" for a number of years. If "$500,000 ±$150,000", as EdFred posted, is your standard for not being "super low pay" then you won't be be happy with an airline job, of any kind.
I don't care if you want to be an airline pilot. If you don't, don't. I would never encourage anyone to take this path unless they are already very motivated to do it.
I agree, the best paying flying gigs I have had were NOT union jobs.
Though it doesn’t really change the problem, doesn’t matter the excuse of why the airline can’t change, they ether can change or maybe get management to fly damn planes lol
Show me the regional that pays a year 1 new hire 500k, and I’ll send my application in tonight.
But year one FO @ 60k-75k unless you work all your days off, dealing with roller bags in major airports, unfortunate bases and living in so so hotels, that’s just not attractive to most anyone.
Larry in TN
En-Route
There are none, so no reason to apply.
SkyChaser
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So...now that the bachelor's degree requirement has basically been dropped, going from zero to hero roughly equals the cost of many four year degrees, more or less. Most entry level jobs pay between $20k - $50k, though some specialized areas do pay closer to $75k+. Why does a year 1 hire need to make more than $85k to be considered "above poverty line"? What am I missing?
Money doesn't have too much to do with it, in my opinion, though. I think, as someone who thought quite seriously about becoming an airline pilot before meeting my husband and getting married, that being away from home so many nights and the "unscheduled schedule" are huge showstoppers for us "younger kids". If you're single, it's a grand adventure and who cares if you go weeks without darkening your own doorstep? But if you have a significant other or family, it seems like most people my age would rather take a paycut and a boring 9-5 job so they can be a part of their family's daily lives.
Money doesn't have too much to do with it, in my opinion, though. I think, as someone who thought quite seriously about becoming an airline pilot before meeting my husband and getting married, that being away from home so many nights and the "unscheduled schedule" are huge showstoppers for us "younger kids". If you're single, it's a grand adventure and who cares if you go weeks without darkening your own doorstep? But if you have a significant other or family, it seems like most people my age would rather take a paycut and a boring 9-5 job so they can be a part of their family's daily lives.
lots wrong here
for the most part a CPL IFR will cost more than a local generic degree, way more than a trade school certificate.
And a entry level job for a pilot is a CFI, drop zone, banner tow. You are NOT going from hitting 250hrs to flying for a regional, and that’s a good thing.
Being away from home all the time would have been a draw back for most every generation.
SkyChaser
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I specified that an ATP should be equal to an average 4 year bachelor's degree. I probably should have said getting a Master's, if a 4 year degree is equal to getting CPL/IFR in your book. Yes, a trade school cert is less, but that isn't what I was using as a comparison. An ATP would cost more than a generic degree, but so does a bachelor's. The national average for a student nowadays is graduating with almost $30k of student loans, and that doesn't include the out-of-pocket expenses every semester. Master's programs were quite expensive when I looked into them. Those zero to hero programs advertise costs of 100k from 0 hours to a position at a regionals. High school diploma to Master's degree probably favorable compares as to first year employment possibilities, and it could easily hit that $100k mark in costs, to make very similar money as a first year ATP at a regional.
I never said that being away from home is a drawback for only the younger generation, but I'm pretty sure being away is tolerated a lot less by the younger generation.
With the time, and often INDUSTRY WORKING EXPERIENCE, it takes to build the requirements for a ATP, you’re talking more a PHD.
Seems good old John and Martha agree
Not many were getting their CPL and IFR for 30k decades ago, I doubt many with our new inflation and the fuel price gouging are going to be doing it for less than someone in say 2002 could.
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SkyChaser
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Ironically, the higher the level of education you push it to, the closer it comes in both cost and estimated "return" in salary.
This website says the average debt of a doctorate student is $100k, so it's coming awfully close to costing the same to get a PhD as it costs to go from zero hours to ATP and regional ready.
In 2009 - 2011, the US Census Bureau took a survey about median income for various disciplines and education levels. Even adjusted for inflation, it is hard to argue that pilots make a lower median income than any other doctorate degree. Michigan State provided this data in a neat chart here.
0-ATP as in you're working from the fresh CPL 250 to 1500?
Because at $160hr average for a plane, if you were going to pay for all your hours all the way to 1500, not even factoring any written, supplies, multi aircraft, check ride fees, CTP these days, and so on, that’s $240,000.00
If you go the working route, where you have had probably 2-3 jobs as a pilot to get the ATP mins, educationally that puts you ahead of most PHDs, who really don’t have much full time working in the wild experience in their field of study, outside of academia, when they get their PHD.
SkyChaser
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I'm not sure how those "zero to hero" programs work - maybe you work at the school or something until you get your minimum hours? Not sure, just know that there were quite a few "zero to hero" programs promising to take you from absolutely no flight time to working at a regional airline for $100k about a year or two ago when I was looking into everything.
I totally agree that most ATPs have way more real experience when they start than the average PhD!
Problem with CFIing to a ATP is not many get the XC and night and whatnot when they hit 1500, so the smart money is CFI to 500, next job, 1k tt first turbine, ready for ATP @ 1500
If your goal is to get hired at a major you still need a college degree or a much stronger resume including some management experience. The other option without a degree is a regional with a flow program. A significant number of pilots hired at the majors have Master degrees. If you don’t have a degree and want that job show you are making progress via online courses ect..
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
So it's not just as simple as "after a year you get any schedule you want" as you initially made it out to be. You also didn't answer how long I have to be at a regional first.
After a few months at my regional I was getting weekends off which is what I wanted and any other specific days off I needed. In this hiring environment, people are getting hired at legacies without any TPIC time and are spending 2-3 years at a regional. Also guys are leaving for Spirit, Frontier, and JetBlue after only a 1 or less at their regional.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Thanks for the info...now, how long before I'm "mid six figures" so basically over 350k?
FedEX and UPS pay the best and I think they’re upgrade time is quick. Assuming you leave a regional in 2 years and upgrade in 3 years to captain at one of those carriers you should be around $350K. I believe @Sluggo63 works at one of the cargo carriers. He may be able to chime in.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I heard was "impossible" to get on with either of those places unless you're basically related to someone in the flight department.
No idea. Probably easier to get on now than it was a few years ago.
I don't know where you're getting your math from, but getting a BS/MS/PhD combined is well north of 10,000 hours of class, study and research time. Closer to 20,000 hours for many fields. Even acknowledging that 1,500 hours does not at all represent the time spent actually "on the job", it certainly isn't 10x 1,500 hours.
The second part is a non sequitor. The experience you get while earning a PhD serves to train you to work independently in your field at a level that only some with a MS degree can do, and far fewer with only a BS. You really cannot compare a degree program to FAA certificates; the learning processes and goals of the training are very different.
Comparing class room “hours” with flight hours doesn’t really work, and if you were going to pay for all your hours you’d need to pay for 1500 as that’s the number. A good deal of PHDs never leave the school environment, and the hours researching whatever on their laptop at Starbucks just isn’t in the same realm as logging those hours flying to put foot on your table on the proverbial dark and stormy night
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I know a person who just got on with delta who did not have a BA or above degree. Flowed up to another major, put in a app and got the call.
Thankfully most of the airlines have wised up and removed the silly degree requirement.
martym
Pre-takeoff checklist
The grapes on those vines will always be sour to some.
Some people like less money and more time in hotels?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Looks like the UPS option unless you are still in school is:
Additional notes:
But of course you gotta get hired at Ameriflight first.
Current jobs there:
Beech 99 - 51k,
meet 135 mins
Beech 1900 - 69k
meet 135 mins
previous 121/135 experience
Saab 340 - 72k plus $0.18/mile
Meet 135 mins
Previous 121/135 experience
3,000 TT, 1000 PIC, 500 hours XC (defined at point to point), 500 multi, 500 turbine, 200 hours instrument (50 must be in an aircraft), 100 hours night
EMB-120 - 72k no mileage.
Same experience as 340
SA227 - 69k
2,000 TT, 1000 PIC, 500 hours XC (defined at point to point), 250 multi, 200 turbine, 100 hours instrument (50 must be in aircraft), 100 hours night
So, gotta start on the 99 and work for who knows how long until you are a check airman, instructor, or management, and also start throwing money at a bachelors.
Not to mention the massive pay cut from what I am doing now.
Then after that:
Additional notes:
That's just to get the F/O interview. Who knows how long you sit right seat.
But of course you gotta get hired at Ameriflight first.
Current jobs there:
Beech 99 - 51k,
meet 135 mins
Beech 1900 - 69k
meet 135 mins
previous 121/135 experience
Saab 340 - 72k plus $0.18/mile
Meet 135 mins
Previous 121/135 experience
3,000 TT, 1000 PIC, 500 hours XC (defined at point to point), 500 multi, 500 turbine, 200 hours instrument (50 must be in an aircraft), 100 hours night
EMB-120 - 72k no mileage.
Same experience as 340
SA227 - 69k
2,000 TT, 1000 PIC, 500 hours XC (defined at point to point), 250 multi, 200 turbine, 100 hours instrument (50 must be in aircraft), 100 hours night
So, gotta start on the 99 and work for who knows how long until you are a check airman, instructor, or management, and also start throwing money at a bachelors.
Not to mention the massive pay cut from what I am doing now.
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That was part of my point, there is no comparison, so none should be drawn.
I could equally argue that a good number of fresh ATPs don't have much time beyond hopping around the patch in a 172.
martym
Pre-takeoff checklist
some people like to argue with over-generalization fallacies?
Larry in TN
En-Route
Is it still fake news? I've seen additional posts confirming it.
martym
Pre-takeoff checklist
Supply and demand. At one time the joke was you need "at least 2 shuttle landings"
You are not getting a ATP by hopping around the local area in a 172
Guess that’s why they are having a shortage of people who want to fly for them?
Extend the local area out to 50 miles, and yes, the vast majority of it certainly can be.
Appears you have a 172, you a ATP?
182. No, but I've been partners in the plane for 17 years with a captain for a major.