How to land a 737 (Nervous Passenger Edition)

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I noticed this video over on AvWeb about how a passenger is tapped to land a 737 after both pilots have become incapacitated. A commercial pilot (article says Delta pilot) instructs the passenger on how to use the autopilot, talk to ATC and land a 737. He's using Microsoft Flight Sim and gives a detailed description of where to find stuff, what to do and when to do it. It's believable up until short final where he says to "turn off the AP and hand-fly it to a landing." All bets are off at that point. Brace for impact.

With the amount of technology that's on the flight deck these days, it does make you wonder if it would be possible to talk your average, non-pilot passenger down through cruise, descent, approach and landing of a 737 or any large airplane for that matter. How many POA pilots (non-airline trained) could pull it off? Seems like a pretty tall order to me. 303,000 views and counting. Apparently this scenario has crossed a few people's minds.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Landing-How-To-Video-Attracts-Attention-225692-1.html
 
That doesn't even look remotely like Bryan, the messiah of how to land!
 
Should a big red handle be installed in 737s to cover this possibility?
 
Crossed some people's minds? This is probably every private pilot's fantasy. And it's a fantasy, no doubt. I just watched the movie Turbulence, on broadcast TV. I've never seen it before. Okay movie. The flight attendant is talked down after Ray Liotta kills everybody and wants to crash the plane to go out in a blaze of glory.
 
There was an episode of "Aircraft Disasters" where a passenger was asked to help fly the plane, but that passenger just happened to be an instructor for the exact make and model of the plane that was in trouble so, he was properly qualified. And even then, he really just assisted the pilots in troubleshooting and helped with some of the controls. He was never actually flying the plane by himself.

Yeah, I think it's probably a fantasy. Can you imagine the mayhem that would ensue if a flight attendant were to actually ask the cabin "Can anyone fly this plane"? Along with the general state of panic, who knows what kind of person you'd get behind the yoke.
 
Caramon13 said:
There was an episode of "Aircraft Disasters" where a passenger was asked to help fly the plane, but that passenger just happened to be an instructor for the exact make and model of the plane that was in trouble so, he was properly qualified. And even then, he really just assisted the pilots in troubleshooting and helped with some of the controls. He was never actually flying the plane by himself.

Yeah, I think it's probably a fantasy. Can you imagine the mayhem that would ensue if a flight attendant were to actually ask the cabin "Can anyone fly this plane"? Along with the general state of panic, who knows what kind of person you'd get behind the yoke.
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And there was that tragic incident of the Greek? airliner where everyone succumbed to hypoxia. A flight attendant was seen in the cockpit by a shadowing jet but apparently did not last long enough to do any good.

Edit: yes Greek, Helios Airways Flight 522. Odd that the flight attendant waited until the airplane was almost out of fuel before going up front. And odd also that, as a commercial pilot, he could not figure out anything useful to do including contacting ground.
 
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Caramon13 said:
There was an episode of "Aircraft Disasters" where a passenger was asked to help fly the plane, but that passenger just happened to be an instructor for the exact make and model of the plane that was in trouble so, he was properly qualified. And even then, he really just assisted the pilots in troubleshooting and helped with some of the controls. He was never actually flying the plane by himself.
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Sounds sort of like United 232. If so, I have an entirely different take on it.
 
Greg, yeah that was it. What was your take on it? The fact that they managed to get that plane down at all was amazing.
 
Nothing against Al Haynes and his co-pilot whose name I can't recall (Kitchen, I think) but the flight controls on the DC-10 were frozen. The only control they had was through differential thrust controlled by the throttles. Denny Fitch was controlling the throttles. Therefore he pretty much had sole control, what little there was, of the aircraft.

Not to minimize Captain Haynes's command of the aircraft, but Denny Fitch never gets the credit he so richly deserves.
 
Gotcha, yeah I looked it up again and read through the specifics. I didn't intend to minimize the impact Fitch had on the situation.

Looks like he died of brain cancer too in 2012 which is a shame.

He was quoted as saying (in reference to that flight): "For the 30 minutes I was up there," Fitch said, "I was the most alive I've ever been. That is the only way I can describe it to you."
 
I had the pleasure of flying with him a couple of times on the 777 before he retired. It was a shame he succumbed to cancer at an all too early age.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I had the pleasure of flying with him a couple of times on the 777 before he retired. It was a shame he succumbed to cancer at an all too early age.
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Records was first officer. While no doubt he did not get the credit he deserved, the Wikipedia article is quite clear that Fitch controlled the airplane. Records gave up his seat to him for the landing.
 
Caramon13 said:
Yeah, I think it's probably a fantasy. Can you imagine the mayhem that would ensue if a flight attendant were to actually ask the cabin "Can anyone fly this plane"? Along with the general state of panic, who knows what kind of person you'd get behind the yoke.
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Don't forget that a 10-y/o might raise his hand and say "I can fly this airplane, afterall it is just a regular 734 with winglets and two CFM56 turbofans ...".
And he might actually show us up because he will know every knob, button and lever in the cockpit from his flight sim video game. :)
So if I am ever faced with a situation like this where both jet drivers get sick, I am looking for a 10-y/o to fill the right seat and help me with all the switches, buttons and levers. :D
 
Yep, Denny Fitch was absolutely the hero of the day on United 232. It's a miracle that anyone survived. The large number of survivors is even more incredible, thanks to him.

What amazed me from a technical side was that the crack imperfection in the fan disk lasted about 15,000 hours before it exploded. And the human factors that went into missing its initiation and propagation.
 
BigBadLou said:
Don't forget that a 10-y/o might raise his hand and say "I can fly this airplane, afterall it is just a regular 734 with winglets and two CFM56 turbofans ...".
And he might actually show us up because he will know every knob, button and lever in the cockpit from his flight sim video game. :)
So if I am ever faced with a situation like this where both jet drivers get sick, I am looking for a 10-y/o to fill the right seat and help me with all the switches, buttons and levers. :D
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I've always said that when we're facing a zombie apocalypse or alien invasion, just find my teenage son and get behind him. He's been preparing for this his whole life and knows EXACTLY what to do!
 
As it's been discussed already, Flight 232 by Laurence Gonzalez is a great read.

I know I could fly the 737 on autopilot. Kicking the autopilot off on short final... could I land it? I'm not sure. I imagine a slow sluggish beast that is very easy to overcontrol, and suddenly I'm struggling to keep lined up with the runway.

But, part of me likes to think I could get it down. I'd probably put the gear through the wings, but everyone would live. Maybe.

I guess I need to go fly the Delta 737 simulator in Atlanta.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I know I could fly the 737 on autopilot. Kicking the autopilot off on short final... could I land it? I'm not sure. I imagine a slow sluggish beast that is very easy to overcontrol, and suddenly I'm struggling to keep lined up with the runway.

But, part of me likes to think I could get it down. I'd probably put the gear through the wings, but everyone would live. Maybe.
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Just like United 232, the key is not the perfect landing but getting the aircraft to the airport environment. Having fire/rescue ready is the key to having a fairly high survivor count.
 
DWruVly.jpg
 
When I worked maintenance at Delta, I was a part time instructor teaching maintenance folks how to taxi our planes. As such, I had access to our full motion simulators in Atlanta. One evening I took my 12 year old nephew down and put him in an L-1011 sim and set him up on approach to the Atlanta airport. I had him turn the autopilot off and talked him through a very nice hand flown landing. He loved video games and was a natural in the cockpit!
I'm a low time private pilot and I've managed to land the sims, without any "instruction" from anyone, pretty consistently. It's really a lot of fun!
 
I think The Aviators covered this pretty well.
Season 1 Ep. 5 Can a Private Pilot Land an Airliner?
Season 1 Ep. 6 Can a Non-Pilot Land an Airliner?
Season 2 Ep. 3 Can a Kid Land an Airliner?

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
 
Rob & Joe, I hope you are not actually serious in comparing a simulator to actually being able to do it in the real world?

My 6 year old could "land a video game plane". What does that prove?

It's true that airliners today have a lot more going for them then older ones, but I do not for one minute believe that just because a kid can do it in the sim means they can do it when it counts, for real.
 
Eh... The simulators are very realistic.

I am not saying you're wrong, but landing one without a fireball would be certainly possible, I think, for a private pilot with a few hours and maybe a very basic understanding of how the big jets operate.
 
ifly4fun said:
Not quite a 737, but there was this guy: http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/...l-King-Air-pilot-An-interview-with-Doug-White
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Mr. Doug is a great guy and, while not well-known, also a pilot.
Believe it or not, the media tried to hide the fact that he is a trained pilot. Why? Because lies sell newspapers better than the truth.
Yes, Mr. Doug only holds an ASEL license and his medical expired but c'mon, which one of us would fail to put a measly King Air down in an emergency?
He did an awesome job and was hailed as hard as Jesus for a while, again, with no mention of his ASEL license. Go media! :D
(at least AOPA correctly reported that Mr. Doug is a licensed pilot)
 
Caramon13 said:
Yeah, I think it's probably a fantasy. Can you imagine the mayhem that would ensue if a flight attendant were to actually ask the cabin "Can anyone fly this plane"? Along with the general state of panic, who knows what kind of person you'd get behind the yoke.
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I think being called to "rescue" a commercial airliner full of passengers when the pilots go down is every pilot's (and wanna-be pilot's) wet dream. And we all think that we can keep our composure and do what needs to be done. Obviously, some of you who think they could would fold like a cheap suit under the pressure, but then there are those of us who could pull it off.

I would be this guy (http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/travel/737-emergency-pilot/), except I'd jump in the left seat (after removing the captain) and say: "I have control. Work the radio.".

:lol::lol::lol:
 
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:) When I was 12 I always thought if something happened I could get the plane down safely.

It may not have been such a crazy thought actually. As previously mentioned. Someone with just video game time can land an airliner. Flight Simulator X has it pretty nailed down, it's just not realistic with aerodynamics and modified software called "Prepar3d" fixes that. Along with a pay-ware airplane Like "Level D" or "PMDG" you get something like 98% close to the real thing short of the full motion sims.

Look:

maxresdefault.jpg
 
Either IFR or Aviation Consumer (it was one that Paul Bertorelli was editing at the time) did a test where they threw three different people into a simulator (I think this was long enough ago that it was a 727). One was a student pilot and the other was a high time instrument rated pilot (and air traffic controller, friend of mine).
 
sddiver said:
Private pilot flying an airliner (737-200 full motion level D simulator):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JosrpU8BCRY

Non-pilot and private pilot landing it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7y7WVW0qLM
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Yeah, that's Flight Chops, famous amateur videographer/pilot.
Frankly, having an instructor in the cockpit next to you telling you how to fly is not the same as having an instructor on frequency while you are along in the cockpit.

You can have the same sim experience for a few hundred dollars (somewhere around $400, IIRC). The sim is in Atlanta.
 
In reality, hopefully we never have to find out the answer to this question.

My hunch?

1) If the person tasked with taking control of the plane was a non-pilot, I'd put the odds of success at somewhere below 2% if they had to hand fly the plane. If they had a functioning autopilot system that could land for them, with assistance and instruction via radio, the odds of success might go up to 50%.

2) If a rated pilot of general aviation aircraft was tasked with this responsibility, I'd probably give it a 50/50 chance of success. Will it be within the PTS for a type rating? Probably not! But, I think it might be more possible than most of us believe.

There was that guy who landed his King Air after his pilot died… he was a 230 hour private pilot with time in C172's, from what I recall:

https://youtu.be/JPWRrICxrKU
 
Coloradokevin said:
There was that guy who landed his King Air after his pilot died… he was a 230 hour private pilot with time in C172's, from what I recall:

https://youtu.be/JPWRrICxrKU
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And he did a great job, as expected.
The most important question Mr. Doug had was "what's my speed on final?" Now that's a pilot behind the mike, no matter how the media will spin it and hype it up.
 
I swear I watched a video where some guy from Europe with zero time went from the sim to dual and actually flying and landing an actual 737.

I'll have to dig around for it.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Here:

http://youtu.be/OcrpR1YI1qc
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I forgot all about that video, but saw it a few months ago. I wish the subtitling had been a bit more complete, but I think that kind of demonstrates the fact that an airplane is an airplane, and handling them in a basic capacity doesn't require the many years of practice that it takes to be a master of the controls (for the most part).
 
Coloradokevin said:
... I think that kind of demonstrates the fact that an airplane is an airplane, and handling them in a basic capacity doesn't require the many years of practice that it takes to be a master of the controls (for the most part).
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Shhhh, don't tell the public. Then we'll be out of our jobs. :eek:
 
There's a big difference between simple ability to fly a plane to a successful landing on a standard day with an emergency declared and being able to safely and successfully handle the "Oh ****" situations without the passengers being any the wiser. Experience, proper training, and systems/aircraft knowledge make the 2nd batch of pilots.

So, I wouldn't be too worried about your jobs going anywhere. Besides, the flying public hates flying with any pilot who doesn't have grey hair.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
There's a big difference between simple ability to fly a plane to a successful landing on a standard day with an emergency declared and being able to safely and successfully handle the "Oh ****" situations without the passengers being any the wiser. Experience, proper training, and systems/aircraft knowledge make the 2nd batch of pilots.

So, I wouldn't be too worried about your jobs going anywhere. Besides, the flying public hates flying with any pilot who doesn't have grey hair.
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Of course… it has often been said that pilots aren't paid for what they do, but for what they might have to do. I really don't think it would be too hard to train a newbie to make a simple landing of an airliner on a straight-in approach during reasonable VFR conditions, with some guidance. That's just a hunch.

Doing all of the other stuff you mentioned is why there's a difference between a professional pilot and a guy who makes one landing after some simulator practice.
 
And there's that bit about using superior ADM to prevent needing to use superior skills.

My stick and rudder flying really isn't much better than 2000 hours ago. Better, yes, but not by an order of magnitude.

My planning, ADM, etc. are all at least an order of magnitude better.
 
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