how to find single engine planes with electronic flaps

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classicrock

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up until now all my PPL lessons have been in a Cessna 172R or K. for the first time this last week I went up in a Piper Warrior II. the Cessna is a high wing-the Piper is a low wing. the Cessna has electronic flaps(switch usually located far right/lower part of instrument panel. what's new for me is that the Piper has manual flaps-you pull up on a bar/long rod positioned between the seats. I liked the Piper EXCEPT for that

question:realizing there are many factors/features to consider in a renting or potentially purchasing, how to you pinpoint what kind of flaps the plane will have? (Note: I visited the Piper Website,www.piper.com, but nowhere the website does it detail what kind of flaps they have?

comments?
 
Does it really matter?

FWIW, most Pipers with the exception of Comanches and Apaches have manual flaps.

Once you have used them for a while, the manual flaps are just as comfortable if not more than electric.

Even early Cessnas had manual 'Johnson bar' flaps.
 
Electric flaps are great right up to the point the motor wears out. Is motor failure a major concern? probably not.

I like the Johnson bar flaps on the PA-28. It's obvious the previous owner of my plane used the Johnson bar as a foot rest. I repainted it and use the two foot rests in the footwell like Piper intended...:D
 
Clark1961 said:
Electric flaps are great right up to the point the motor wears out. Is motor failure a major concern? probably not.
Click to expand...

Good point. Never have to worry about replacing or overhauling flap motors in a Piper.
 
classicrock said:
the Cessna has electronic flaps(switch usually located far right/lower part of instrument panel. what's new for me is that the Piper has manual flaps-you pull up on a bar/long rod positioned between the seats. I liked the Piper EXCEPT for that
Click to expand...

Electric, not electronic. And I like the Johnson Bar a lot! If I am correct, some early Mooneys had a Johnson Bar to raise/lower the landing gear!

-Skip
 
All Piper PA-28s have manual flaps. PA-32s had manual flaps through 1984, then were "blessed" with electric flaps in 1985.

Fixed-gear Cessnas all had manual flaps until the early-mid '60s. 182 got electric flaps in 1962 (182E), 172 in 1965 (172F) and 150 in 1966 (150F). 180 and 185, often used for bush flying and/or as seaplanes, never had electric flaps.
 
Skip Miller said:
Electric, not electronic. And I like the Johnson Bar a lot! If I am correct, some early Mooneys had a Johnson Bar to raise/lower the landing gear!

-Skip
Click to expand...
Yup, the "C" has Johnson bar gear. If ya have big hands be a little careful to prevent getting bitten by the seat-frame as you move the lever. I gave blood just to lower the gear.
 
Get some hours behind manual flaps and you'll far prefer them, many pilots, especially STOL pilot, only fly manual flaps.

You can vary the speed you deploy or retract them, if you're landing in a major crosswind you can go from flaps on approach to zero flaps once you touch down in no time flat, no battery drain, simple system with fewer types of failure. I also like being able to feel my flaps on my 185.

I've never have and never will own a plane that isn't a tailwheel and doesn't have manual flaps.
 
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Pilawt said:
All Piper PA-28s have manual flaps. PA-32s had manual flaps through 1984, then were "blessed" with electric flaps in 1985.

Fixed-gear Cessnas all had manual flaps until the early-mid '60s. 182 got electric flaps in 1962 (182E), 172 in 1965 (172F) and 150 in 1966 (150F). 180 and 185, often used for bush flying and/or as seaplanes, never had electric flaps.
Click to expand...

But the inside of my 1981 Cessna 185 wing had brackets for a flap motor.
 
Clark1961 said:
Electric flaps are great right up to the point the motor wears out. Is motor failure a major concern? probably not.

I like the Johnson bar flaps on the PA-28. It's obvious the previous owner of my plane used the Johnson bar as a foot rest. I repainted it and use the two foot rests in the footwell like Piper intended...:D
Click to expand...

Lost the flap motor in a Cardinal. Ran the flaps up with an electric grill and flew on home.
 
Pilawt said:
All Piper PA-28s have manual flaps. PA-32s had manual flaps through 1984, then were "blessed" with electric flaps in 1985.

Fixed-gear Cessnas all had manual flaps until the early-mid '60s. 182 got electric flaps in 1962 (182E), 172 in 1965 (172F) and 150 in 1966 (150F). 180 and 185, often used for bush flying and/or as seaplanes, never had electric flaps.
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Pilawt

thanks. how on earth did you know this/find this out?
 
I had the electric flaps on my Cardinal not retract from full down on a dark night go-around at a small airport.

Scared the poop out of me, that would be an easy way to die.

I love the Cardinal, but greatly prefer manual flaps.
 
classicrock said:
Pilawt

thanks. how on earth did you know this/find this out?
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He knows all. :yes:

You're early in your flying experience. Given time, you'll likely find, as most others have, that it doesn't really matter one way or another.
 
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There are more failure modes than the motor on Cessna electric flaps. There are position sensing micro switches and a bunch of piano wire and pulleys that move the back of the switch to stop the flaps at the desired position. I'm a fan of manual flaps.
 
I used to have the same thoughts. But then I actually started to fly with the manual flaps. So much quicker and easier in my opinion. Granted, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
All my training was done in a c172 with electric flaps. I'm now part owner in an arrow with manual flap lever.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
 
Graueradler said:
There are more failure modes than the motor on Cessna electric flaps. There are position sensing micro switches and a bunch of piano wire and pulleys that move the back of the switch to stop the flaps at the desired position. I'm a fan of manual flaps.
Click to expand...
Free range electric flaps solve some of that, at least. I do like my flaps on the M!
 
I rather like my electric flaps. Push the little switch down, the flaps go down; let to and they obediently stop. Pull the little switch up, they start back up; let go and they stop. It's easy to get exactly the amount of flaps that I want, and I tweak them on final as needed to nail the glideslope and speed.

Another great thing, they are easy to reach with a finger to raise while holding the throttle at Idle. No chance to accidentally raise the gear, it's way up at the top of the panel. On gusty days, or with strong crosswinds, flaps up after touchdown is the smart thing to do.
 
The flap motor failed in the C-172L I used to own. It failed with the flaps at 20 degrees. Since there wasn't MX on my field at the time, I had to fly it to a shop about 20 minutes away with the flaps stuck in that position.

The 182 and LSA I own now have manual flaps, which I much prefer.
 
You will appreciate the manual flaps when your alternator quits or in high winds once you get on the ground. I trained in a 172 and liked the three-position flap switch better than the "press and hold" switch, but I like my Dakota's manual flaps best.
 
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I have flown with both. Manual in Pipers, Electric in Tigers and Bos.

Flaps in the Bo are different because you dump them all in at once. I still prefer the manual flaps. That said I'm more concerned about a split flap situation.
 
AdamZ said:
That said I'm more concerned about a split flap situation.
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A local 172 had a split flap deployment. The right flap was stuck fully up and the left flap was free to fall all the way to 40 degrees. The air stream kept it around 25 or so and the CFI (flying with a student) was able to land it ok.

It looked pretty terrible on the ramp with one flap up and the other sitting at 40 degrees.
 
Just a minor point - the flaps on Apaches and Aztrucks are hydraulic, not electric.
To the OP - yup, I'm a troglodyte also - fly the durned plane and don't whine :nono:
Your complaint amounts to the same as saying you can't ride in a car that does not have leather seats.

OK, having said that (in good humor) welcome the chance to fly different control layout planes rather than avoid it. If you ask advice from some grizzled old codger (like me) about this or that would you expect him to be an expert if he only flew one airplane his entire life? And if he only flew one airplane at one airport and only on perfect CAVU/zero-wind days why would you bother to ask his/my advice?
Go forth my son and aviate :D
 
The main issue I have with electric flaps is that they are SLOW.

I rather like pulling the parking brake on final in a Cherokee. I really like releasing it very suddenly in a short field landing or touch'n'go.

Late 182 flaps take fricken' forever.
 
Another in the manual flap camp.
Incomprehensibly, I've been asked more than once why I haven't converted my current plane's flaps to electric. WTH?!
 
Hank S said:
... Push the little switch down, the flaps go down; let to and they obediently stop. Pull the little switch up, they start back up; let go and they stop. ...
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Unless they don't.
 
MAKG1 said:
The main issue I have with electric flaps is that they are SLOW.

I rather like pulling the parking brake on final in a Cherokee. I really like releasing it very suddenly in a short field landing or touch'n'go.

Late 182 flaps take fricken' forever.
Click to expand...
I agree. I feel like I have more control with a Johnson bar. Plus if the electrical system craps out I won't have to worry about the flaps not going down or retracting.
 
I did my primary in Warriors, so I got pretty used to the Johnson bar. I had about 150 hours in Pipers, all with manual flaps, before I ever flew a Cessna with electric flaps.

Our Saratoga has manual, and the Debonair is electric.

I think I prefer manual, I don't have to think about it, I just reach down, and adjust it.

In the Debonair, the actuator is on or off, and the degree markings are on the flaps. It takes a more concentration to set them to a certain degree, especially at night. Plus the flaps and gear are reversed, so I have to rally think about it if I need to dump flaps on landing.

There is no way to mistake the flap bar for a gear handle.

Also it is much more fun to read setting the take off flaps right before take off on the checklist as: "Parking Brake, Set". That usually gets a response.
 
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I HATE electric flaps. The plane I fly now has them the switch is flaky and they are so slow. Manual is far better in my opinion.
 
JimNtexas said:
I had the electric flaps on my Cardinal not retract from full down on a dark night go-around at a small airport.

Scared the poop out of me, that would be an easy way to die.

I love the Cardinal, but greatly prefer manual flaps.
Click to expand...

Had the flaps fail full down on a Bonanza. Luckily I was full stop and did not notice until I was climbing out that the flaps had not retracted on the taxi checklist. Luckily I was having a lunch stop with a DAR friend. Determined it was the switch. We pulled the pax seat. Exposed the flap motor, disconnected the switch and applied the jumper cables from a car battery to raise the flaps.

Issued a ferry permit and I flew it home sans flaps.
 
If I were spec'ing out a plane, I'd opt for manual flaps if available.

My Citabria 7GCBC had them, as did many of the Pipers I've flown.

The one nagging but intermittent glitch my Sky Arrow has is periodically non-functioning electric trim. Makes me long for the simplicity of manual trim as well, at least as a backup.
 
MAKG1 said:
The main issue I have with electric flaps is that they are SLOW.

I rather like pulling the parking brake on final in a Cherokee. I really like releasing it very suddenly in a short field landing or touch'n'go.

Late 182 flaps take fricken' forever.
Click to expand...

The above reason is also why I prefer the manual flaps. For me, dumping the first notch off quickly on a late go-around is important to get rid of that excess drag.

Plus, it's easy to see(by feel) what your flap position is at just with your hand. The Cessna flap lever can also be a bit of a pain to operate in bumpy conditions, especially if the the little "detents" are worn. You have to move it precisely to the spot you want the flaps at. Sometimes if things are rough, you miss it. As well, once I initiated a go-around after a hard bounce in a 172N, and instead of retracting the flaps from 40 to 20 degrees per the POH, I accidentally moved them to 10. The sudden sink of the airplane that close to the ground was a pretty scary thing.

More reliability is just an extra.
 
I have a plane with manual flaps, another with hydraulic and one with no flaps. I prefer the one with no flaps. ;)


Jim R
Collierville, TN

N7155H--1946 Piper J-3 Cub
N3368K--1946 Globe GC-1B Swift
N4WJ--1994 Van's RV-4
 
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airdale said:
Unless they don't.
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Yep, that happens too. Total electrical failure with Approach flaps out and gear mostly down. Cranked them down the rest of the way, went home slowly and landed. No biggie.

When I got my Hi Perf endorsement in a 182, the alternator died. Had to land full stop, at night,no lights, no radio and 10° flaps. My only problem was the sight picture is very different from the Mooney. But the green light from the tower sure was easy to spot.

You've gotta be ready for anything in the plane to not work, and still get somewhere and down safely. The day my carb heat jammed wide open was worse than the electrical trouble, the plane was slow and I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't climb but 200-300 fpm . . . I had hills to clear!
 
AdamZ said:
I have flown with both. Manual in Pipers, Electric in Tigers and Bos.

Flaps in the Bo are different because you dump them all in at once. I still prefer the manual flaps. That said I'm more concerned about a split flap situation.
Click to expand...


Certainly haven't had it happen in all types, but I do know that in a 172 with one flap up and the other at 35 to 40 degrees, it's perfectly controllable, even for a student. It's just a little annoying having to hold a bunch of aileron in...but very natural to do so.

A larger issue, IMO, is flaps stuck at 40 on a hot day on a go around. I've had that happen in a 172 with a student and in that case I had to come on the controls to help them out. They would have faired much better with split flaps.

Had to sit there and milk things for awhile in a slight bank, remaining over the airport environment, until things were sorted out enough to land. I didn't want to head over a residential area in that scenario because quite frankly I wasn't so sure we wouldn't be clipping houses. Airport is big, had plenty of room to sort things out, and if I'm going to make a smoking hole I'd rather it be in the grass versus in the side of some kid's bedroom.
 
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mkosmo said:
Free range electric flaps solve some of that, at least. I do like my flaps on the M!
Click to expand...

There are still limit microswitches on that M model.They stop the motor at the top and bottom of the travel range no matter what you do with the control switch. And those microswitches often get mistreated by mechanics who spray lubricant on the jackscrew, in violation of Cessna's instructions. That lube gets into the switches and fouls the contacts and attracts dust and makes the switches stick and fail. Cessna tells us to clean the jackscrew with a rag and a bit of solvent, and then carefully apply a bit of non-detergent, non-parrafin SAE 10 oil to it.

When those switches finally get fed up with such treatment you get such symptoms as flaps that refuse to extend from fully up, or to retract once fully extended. Not a good thing if you have to abort the landing and go around and can't get the flaps up from 40°.

The flap motor/gearbox itself lasts a long, long time.
 
Dan Thomas said:
There are still limit microswitches on that M model.They stop the motor at the top and bottom of the travel range no matter what you do with the control switch. And those microswitches often get mistreated by mechanics who spray lubricant on the jackscrew, in violation of Cessna's instructions. That lube gets into the switches and fouls the contacts and attracts dust and makes the switches stick and fail. Cessna tells us to clean the jackscrew with a rag and a bit of solvent, and then carefully apply a bit of non-detergent, non-parrafin SAE 10 oil to it.

When those switches finally get fed up with such treatment you get such symptoms as flaps that refuse to extend from fully up, or to retract once fully extended. Not a good thing if you have to abort the landing and go around and can't get the flaps up from 40°.

The flap motor/gearbox itself lasts a long, long time.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure it'd be a ride to never want to take again if I have to go around with full 40 hanging out...
 
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