How to do an unnecessary procedure turn?

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rookie1255

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rookie1255
VOR-A approach at 3B4. Coming from the north I go to the VOR, cross it, and go out and do the procedure turn. But what about coming from the South? What do I do upon crossing the VOR? Do I do the published hold and go straight in? Could I skip any kind of turn and just go straight in?

It doesn't say NO PT and assume you're not being vectored to final. How should the full approach be flown coming from the South?
 
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I'm an instrument student, so I can be slapped around here for an incorrect assumption, but I believe you fly to the VOR as it is your IAF and continue the approach. The hold is not mandatory and you can begin your descent with positive course guidance from the VOR.
 
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I think I agree that the hold isn't mandatory, but I want to say a procedure turn is in this case.
 
If you're coming from the south just fly to the VOR (IAF) and proceed inbound.

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You also know about this right?

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James, that makes the most sense to me. I guess what I'm looking for is the regulation that says the PT isn't required. My understanding that if there's a PT published, it must be flown as it's shown on this approach plate.
 
OK. From a hangar flying standpoint then. This is not the only approach like this. I could dig up some other ones. Published PT, doesn't say no PT. Makes no sense to fly the PT coming from a certain direction. Is the PT still required? If it is, how do you even do it?
 
As a follow up question, when to begin the descent if coming from the south? If coming from the north, you do the procedure turn, presumably with 10NM of the VOR and begin the descent once you've got positive course guidance inbound. If coming from the south, you wouldn't want to wait to cross the VOR as you'd only have 4.3NM to loose almost 2300'. Intercept R-232 TO PSM, begin descent at 10DME?
 
I thought in lieu of a NO PT reference, or radar vectors, a procedure turn - or holding pattern in lieu of a procedure turn - was always required if depicted.

But I’m VERY rusty, let me look it up.

edited to add: AIM 5-4-9 seems to back me up.

The procedure turn or hold−in−lieu−of−PT is a required maneuver when it is depicted on the approach chart, unless cleared by ATC for a straight−in approach...
Additionally, the procedure turn or hold−in−lieu−of−PT is not permitted when the symbol “No PT” is depicted on the initial segment being used, when a RADAR VECTOR to the final approach course is provided, or when conducting a timed approach from a holding fix.
 
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FastEddieB said:
I thought in lieu of a NO PT reference, or radar vectors, a procedure turn was always required if depicted.

But I’m VERY rusty, let me look it up.
Click to expand...

Oh boy...I do think you are right. There are a couple exceptions, as you noted:

• You are getting radar vectors.
• You are in a holding pattern.
• You are on a no procedure turn transition.
• You are flying a DME arc.
• No procedure turn is shown on the chart.
 
So if we can agree that the PT should be flown, the questions are now how to do it coming from the south, and how do the altitude changes work.
 
rookie1255 said:
So if we can agree that the PT should be flown, the questions are now how to do it coming from the south, and how do the altitude changes work.
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Coming from the south, after station passage you turn so as to intercept the outbound leg. You cannot descend until established on the outbound course.
 
I'm glad @FastEddieB spoke up. Yes, you have to do a PT, always, if one is depicted, unless you meet one of the exceptions he lists.

How do you do it? Why make it complicated? Fly to the VOR then turn outbound on the 232 radial, etc. Sure, this might be a large turn, but that's okay.

Also note - the depicted holding pattern is for the missed approach (hence the dashed line).

Also also note - however, you are not limited to just doing the depicted PT. This is what we learn in instrument training, but there are other options that are fine too. So, you want to take a lap around the holding pattern to get established on final coming from the south? No real complaint from me.

Do note, though, the minimum holding altitude is published at 3000 like the PT. Once you're on the 052 course inbound you can descend to 1500, but if you only did a one-minute holding pattern, you may not have enough time/distance to descent to 1500. This is a situation where, if I was performing the depicted PT, I would go out more than 1 minute before making my 45 degree turn. More likely 2-3 minutes, depending on the wind speed and direction, so long as I stay within 10 miles, of course.
 
So basically turn it all the way around to get established on outbound, then fly it by the book. This makes it equally long timewise whether coming from the North or the South.

With the big turn back out to R-232 I would say that common sense says to make it a right turn since that's the holding pattern side. However, I also want to say it doesn't matter because you should still be at altitude to maintain automatic obstacle clearance and shouldn't be descending til in the procedure turn/inbound anyways.
 
Stop confusing a Hold and a Procedure Turn. They aren't the same thing
 
FastEddieB said:
Coming from the south, after station passage you turn so as to intercept the outbound leg. You cannot descend until established on the outbound course.
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This. A depicted procedure turn is required unless one of the 91.175 conditions applies.

Of course, since the only thing a barbed procedure turn tells us is the correct side to make the turn, you can do whatever you want, including a holding entry.

This is "PT 101" and discussed in the AIM discussion on procedure turns.
 
James331 said:
If you're coming from the south just fly to the VOR (IAF) and proceed inbound.

image.png



You also know about this right?

image.png
Click to expand...
Interesting...I like how you have the opacity lowered on the chart so it is somewhat transparent. Never thought of doing that. I'm definitely going to start doing that from now on once I find that setting
 
So if you happened to be flying directly along the 052 radial, you would still have to turn around after station passage and complete the PT. That is what I originally thought since it was depicted, but it sure is odd to think about doing that since your already lined up perfectly with the approach course.
 
rookie1255 said:
So if we can agree that the PT should be flown, the questions are now how to do it coming from the south, and how do the altitude changes work.
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Right 360-degree turn would be the quickest. A turn around a holding pattern would give you a little time to stabilize before the FAF.
 
Dave Arata said:
Oh boy...I do think you are right. There are a couple exceptions, as you noted:

• You are getting radar vectors.
• You are in a holding pattern.
• You are on a no procedure turn transition.
• You are flying a DME arc.
• No procedure turn is shown on the chart.
Click to expand...

So do a "half lap" on the hold (notice it sends you right into the IAF, and is basically the same thing as going straight in), if I was coming in from the south there is no way on earth I'd fly all over the place to head the wrong way just to do a procedure turn for the sake of it.

Gotta infuse common sense.
 
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CC268 said:
Interesting...I like how you have the opacity lowered on the chart so it is somewhat transparent. Never thought of doing that. I'm definitely going to start doing that from now on once I find that setting
Click to expand...

image.jpg


And

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I'm running a older version of foreflight on my phone since I don't upgrade iOSs, but on the newer ones there's also a option to invert the chart so most of it is black, I'd highly recommend that if you do a bunch of night flying, thats how I run my iPad/main EFB and the opacity works on that too.
 
rookie1255 said:
James, that makes the most sense to me. I guess what I'm looking for is the regulation that says the PT isn't required. My understanding that if there's a PT published, it must be flown as it's shown on this approach plate.
Click to expand...

Not as it's 'shown.' The 45 degree barb is just one way of doing it. You have to do it on the 'barb side' and you have to stay within 10 NM of PSM. Read AIM 5-4-9.
 
rookie1255 said:
I think I agree that the hold isn't mandatory, but I want to say a procedure turn is in this case.
Click to expand...

The hold is mandatory until you get a clearance beyond that fix. Not an issue here though, that's the Missed Approach hold. It has nothing to do with commencing the Approach.
 
James331 said:
So do a "half lap" on the hold (notice it sends you right into the IAF, and is basically the same thing as going straight in), if I was coming in from the south there is no way on earth I'd fly all over the place to head the wrong way just to do a procedure turn for the sake of it.

Gotta infuse common sense.
Click to expand...

Yup. But you did do a 'procedure turn' when you "So do a "half lap" on the hold (notice it sends you right into the IAF, and is basically the same thing as going straight in)" Not exactly like the pretty bold black lined barb on the chart. But a procedure turn it was
 
luvflyin said:
Yup. But you did do a 'procedure turn' when you "So do a "half lap" on the hold (notice it sends you right into the IAF, and is basically the same thing as going straight in)" Not exactly like the pretty bold black lined barb on the chart. But a procedure turn it was
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Which in the end of the day is the same as go to the IAF and proceed inbound
 
James331 said:
image.jpg


And

image.jpg



I'm running a older version of foreflight on my phone since I don't upgrade iOSs, but on the newer ones there's also a option to invert the chart so most of it is black, I'd highly recommend that if you do a bunch of night flying, thats how I run my iPad/main EFB and the opacity works on that too.
Click to expand...

Sweet gave it a shot today when shooting a VOR approach and it worked great!
 
PSM is an IAF for purposes of the procedure turn. It is a FAF once the procedure turn is completed. If someone goes straight in from the south without doing the procedure turn they are proceeding direct to the FAF, not the IAF. This discussion has been around ad nauseam.
 
aterpster said:
PSM is an IAF for purposes of the procedure turn. It is a FAF once the procedure turn is completed. If someone goes straight in from the south without doing the procedure turn they are proceeding direct to the FAF, not the IAF. This discussion has been around ad nauseam.
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...with a long, long, long history of people incorrectly thinking procedure turns are optional for the pilot even. Some of those include controllers.
 
It's because it defies common sense. With accurate GPS equipment and lined up for a straight in, the pilot is supposed to ADD RISK, by executing a procedure turn. Fortunately it doesn't happen much because most places have radar coverage. They could easily make a rule that you dont have to do it if you are lined up straight in by so many degrees, or some such sensible rule.
 
This was a good question by the OP and a good discussion.

Cheers.
 
coloradobluesky said:
It's because it defies common sense. With accurate GPS equipment and lined up for a straight in, the pilot is supposed to ADD RISK, by executing a procedure turn. Fortunately it doesn't happen much because most places have radar coverage. They could easily make a rule that you dont have to do it if you are lined up straight in by so many degrees, or some such sensible rule.
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They have already done so. They are called RNAV (GPS) approaches. One thing they aren’t is VOR approaches where ya really don’t know exact position except when crossing the station.
 
coloradobluesky said:
They could easily make a rule that you dont have to do it if you are lined up straight in by so many degrees, or some such sensible rule.
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...AND already safely at the appropriate altitude for the FAF and in approach configuration.

I understand where you’re coming from. The intent of all this is to give the pilot time to get stabilized on the final approach course, and not be rushed. If already there and stabilized, that’s different - but for now, still required.

And standard and consistent rules also make it easier for ATC planning purposes.
 
I would have thought this procedure would have been replaced with a HILPT. Usually you only see procedure turn barbs when the navaid is on airport.
 
James331 said:
Which in the end of the day is the same as go to the IAF and proceed inbound
Click to expand...

No it is not. You can't descend below 3000 until you are established on the inbound course. So, if you go straight to the VOR and do a right 360 or even a hold with 1-minute turns, it's a huge slam dunk to get down from 3000.

If coming from the south why not line up with the inbound course, and descend below 3000 once within 10 miles? Multiple reasons. Not the least of which is that the PT is required, and another reason is that it is a VOR approach, so you can fly this with VOR only with no DME, GPS, or whatever. Those are not part of the approach. You remain within 10 miles by flying to the fix and keeping track of time on the outbound leg. You don't just get to fly the parts of the approach you want.

All that being said, if this approach wasn't NOTAM'd out, and if you were flying this approach from the south, you could/would probably get cleared for a "straight-in".
 
pburger said:
No it is not. You can't descend below 3000 until you are established on the inbound course. So, if you go straight to the VOR and do a right 360 or even a hold with 1-minute turns, it's a huge slam dunk to get down from 3000.

If coming from the south why not line up with the inbound course, and descend below 3000 once within 10 miles? Multiple reasons. Not the least of which is that the PT is required, and another reason is that it is a VOR approach, so you can fly this with VOR only with no DME, GPS, or whatever. Those are not part of the approach. You remain within 10 miles by flying to the fix and keeping track of time on the outbound leg. You don't just get to fly the parts of the approach you want.

All that being said, if this approach wasn't NOTAM'd out, and if you were flying this approach from the south, you could/would probably get cleared for a "straight-in".
Click to expand...

You're telling me you wouldn't let the AP fly the overlay for the procedure turn, hold , etc?
 
Clark1961 said:
They have already done so. They are called RNAV (GPS) approaches. One thing they aren’t is VOR approaches where ya really don’t know exact position except when crossing the station.
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This.

They've also added TAAs to some non GPS approaches and designated IFs for straight-ins from broader points.
 
bobmrg said:
....but a racetrack pattern is a form of course reversal.

Bob
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Indeed it is for a procedure turn. Having said that, "racetrack" seems like an obsolete term to me, although I realize it's still in the AIM.

OTOH, the HILPTs, which all RNAV IAPs with a course reversal have, must be flown as specified.
 
FastEddieB said:
Not true.

Do a Google image search for “approach plate procedure turn” to find out why.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you're getting at. I was saying that the trend was toward favoring HILPTs with vanilla procedure turns being less common.
 
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