How to count IFR instruction hours?

Rykymus

Rykymus

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Rykymus
Is it the dual given, (which is the duration of the flight), or the time under the hood during the dual given? I'm usually under the hood within the first 5-10 minutes, and then for the duration of the flight there after. Granted, the difference between the two methods should only end up being an hour or two by the end of my training. I'm just wondering what the proper method of calculation actually is, and I've gotten different answers from 2 different CFIIs.
 
Dual given for the entire flight. The entire flight is instrument training, not just the time you were under the hood.
 
jordane93 said:
Dual given for the entire flight. The entire flight is instrument training, not just the time you were under the hood.
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Correct.
IFR flight is as much about procedure and communications as IMC flying per se. I'd hazard a guess that most IFR flight hours are VMC, probably by a large margin. IOW, your CFII is teaching you how to become a proficient instrument pilot, of which flying "on the gauges" is a mere subset.
 
That's what I thought. After all, we spent one whole lesson without the hood, just flying approaches to get the hang of briefing, setting up avionics, etc.
 
Rykymus said:
That's what I thought. After all, we spent one whole lesson without the hood, just flying approaches to get the hang of briefing, setting up avionics, etc.
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That's right. But one major caveat: your CFI must be a CFII! Even if s/he is instrument rated, it doesn't count as dual instrument instruction unless s/he has the double-I.
 
jordane93 said:
Dual given for the entire flight. The entire flight is instrument training, not just the time you were under the hood.
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No. The entire flight is training. It is not instrument training unless under simulated or actual instrument conditions.

It's dual received. Not dual given (you're an instrument student, not an instructor).

Only the time under the hood is simulated instrument time.

The requirements for the instrument rating require 40 hours simulated or actual instrument time, of which 15 hours must be instruction under simulated or actual instrument conditions. So, time not under the hood counts as total time, but NOT for an instrument rating. Except for cross country time if there is a point of landing 50 miles from the starting point. See 14 CFR 61.65(d)(2).

It's not a small difference. Time spent waiting for release, testing avionics, taxiing, etc., all counts for flight time (as long as the engine is running, for the purpose of flight), but not simulated instrument time.

I hope you're logging simulated/actual instrument time separately from dual. You can easily have simulated instrument time that isn't dual. With a safety pilot who is not rated as a CFII (or even with one who is, but is not acting as an instructor -- it's a fine line). You can even have actual instrument PIC time (logged) that isn't dual as long as the acting PIC has an instrument rating and is current and otherwise able and willing to act as PIC under IFR. Just make sure you log the safety pilot name, even though that's not required for actual conditions. Otherwise you might get a question at your checkride.
 
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Usually on my IFR training flights, dual and simulated instrument times are the same. Yesterday's flight was an exception since I had a few things to figure out on my plane after the lesson which involved flying around a bit with my CFI in the right seat but at that point he was not doing anything. I certainly do not need any more dual time (though I do need hood time).
 
DesertNomad said:
Usually on my IFR training flights, dual and simulated instrument times are the same. Yesterday's flight was an exception since I had a few things to figure out on my plane after the lesson which involved flying around a bit with my CFI in the right seat but at that point he was not doing anything. I certainly do not need any more dual time (though I do need hood time).
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If you're shortening the dual time to simulated instrument time, the only thing you're doing is shorting your instructor some logged PIC time -- which he might not care about.

But logging instrument time in relation to logbooks is defined in 14 CFR 61.51(g)(1), and you simply must be wearing a view limiting device or be operating in actual instrument conditions in order to do that, so if you have been counting whole flights, you have a big revision to make.

I never had ONE flight where dual received = instrument time.
 
DesertNomad said:
Usually on my IFR training flights, dual and simulated instrument times are the same. Yesterday's flight was an exception since I had a few things to figure out on my plane after the lesson which involved flying around a bit with my CFI in the right seat but at that point he was not doing anything. I certainly do not need any more dual time (though I do need hood time).
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You have to have been wearing the hood from the time to start the engine to shutdown in order for dual received = simulated instrument.
 
jordane93 said:
You have to have been wearing the hood from the time to start the engine to shutdown in order for dual received = simulated instrument.
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Or depart JFK in Cat 2 conditions in the sim. But then it doesn't go in the flight time column so I guess it doesn't really matter.
 
jordane93 said:
You have to have been wearing the hood from the time to start the engine to shutdown in order for dual received = simulated instrument.
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Generally, yes.

But there are some situations where it might happen legitimately otherwise.

For instance, I've traded off half-flights with a CFII before, when he needed to renew his currency. So, for the first half of the flight, I was logging nothing (I wasn't acting PIC), then I went under the hood for an hour (both dual and sim instrument to practice partial panel approaches on a G1000). I made the last landing, so I had 0.1 more dual than simulated instrument, but it's not hard to come up with a scenario where they might have been equal.

It's really weird being a safety pilot in the left seat. But as a CFII, he wanted to practice approaches with the right seat cross-scan. He didn't even want me to push the red button.
 
After reading all the answers, I'm still trying to figure out the question.

Yes, there is no question that, for example from a practical reality standpoint, flying an approach visually is instruction in integument procedures and quite valuable.

OTOH, from a regulatory standpoint (FAR 61.1), "Instrument training means that time in which instrument training is received from an authorized instructor under actual or simulated instrument conditions."

Seems pretty straightforward, doesn't it?
 
jordane93 said:
You have to have been wearing the hood from the time to start the engine to shutdown in order for dual received = simulated instrument.
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Uh no.

Total flight time = 1.8
Dual received = 1.4
Sim. instrument = 1.4

They are three different things really. In the above example, the extra 0.4 would be me flying without a hood with my CFI as a simple passenger. Obviously all sim. instrument time is either under the hood or in actual IFR conditions.
 
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jordane93 said:
I don't know of any CFI who doesn't make total flight time = dual received.
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Mine does if a portion of the flight is clearly not involving instruction. He is in his early 70s, has more than 16,000 hours and is not trying to build hours.
 
DesertNomad said:
Mine does if a portion of the flight is clearly not involving instruction. He is in his early 70s, has more than 16,000 hours and is not trying to build hours.
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Then he's short changing you on dual received. If I'm in the plane, I'm giving instruction. Doesn't matter if we're holding sort of the runway, taxiing, etc.
 
I got my rating via a part 141 program (Cessna / King) and this is a typical example of how my time was logged which I believe is consistent with the FARs when the foggles went on shortly after departure:
Total Flight: 1.6
Dual: 1.6
Sim instrument: 1.3

Total flight and dual always were the same which is what it's been all the back to my first student pilot lesson.

Sim or actual instrument time was always something less. Plus the aeronautical experience requirement in 61.65 is for actual or sim instrument time (40 hrs for part 61 and 35 for part 141) not dual. There is no minimum dual req at all.
 
jordane93 said:
Then he's short changing you on dual received. If I'm in the plane, I'm giving instruction. Doesn't matter if we're holding sort of the runway, taxiing, etc.
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Well, I am only paying for the dual received that is actually logged. Usually it will be something like: Total = 1.5, Dual = 1.5, Sim = 1.2, but not always. If I am not paying for it, I don't expect to log it as dual.
 
DesertNomad said:
Well, I am only paying for the dual received that is actually logged. Usually it will be something like: Total = 1.5, Dual = 1.5, Sim = 1.2, but not always. If I am not paying for it, I don't expect to log it as dual.
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Hopefully you're paying for at least 1.7 in the above example as you're taking advantage of his time before and after the flight.
 
I usually end up paying for about 0.5 of ground time on each instructional flight. He charges me at the end of the flight and I have never argued the amount. I do keep the fridge stocked with Diet Coke which may help the rounding decisions. :)
 
DesertNomad said:
Well, I am only paying for the dual received that is actually logged. Usually it will be something like: Total = 1.5, Dual = 1.5, Sim = 1.2, but not always. If I am not paying for it, I don't expect to log it as dual.
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Good for you. I logged just over 47 hours dual-given this month, but billed just over 63 hours. There's value in the ground time.
 
Rykymus said:
Is it the dual given, (which is the duration of the flight), or the time under the hood during the dual given? I'm usually under the hood within the first 5-10 minutes, and then for the duration of the flight there after. Granted, the difference between the two methods should only end up being an hour or two by the end of my training. I'm just wondering what the proper method of calculation actually is, and I've gotten different answers from 2 different CFIIs.
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1. The entire flight is Dual Received.
2. Only that time under the hood (or actual) is simulated instrument (or actual).

PJ
 
For me it is a nearly 2-mile taxi to the runway, so I end up with quite a bit of ground time before I can get the hood on. I also try to land long on the return or it is yet another long taxi.
 
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