How to be productive during solo?

[denverpilot]

First of all, it never hit 20 and that was a "gusting to". Winds started out lower numbers. In fact, maybe I should go back and check - I maybe posted the wrong thing since "wind direction was variable".

Heh. And what was the crosswind component at the peak of the gust?

The windsock when I landed wasn't even that straight out, thank goodness, and I could have always gone around if I needed to.

You did fine. Really.

Funny how different your post is than Henning. Like you, I decided to put the plane away so to speak. Not worth flying that day. Different people always give me different advice! It could not have been too bad, my CFI saw me land and therefore he would have DEFINITELY told me if there was a problem with my landing..... maybe I got lucky and on short final / touchdown the winds went back to being straight down the runway. This post was about what the AWOS said before I took off, not necessarily when I landed.

Heh. You're thinking the right way. I was just adding info about those pesky "rule makers" who truly own our butts as pilots if we make a mistake. Insurance companies and club rules (usually based off of the insurance company rules in their policy).

It was more a challenge to you to see if you'd "done the math" for your aircraft. Not advice on how to fly it.

Hint: Your oral will probably include, "What is the maximum demonstrated crosswind component for this airplane?", about 5 seconds after the examiner asks casually, "What are our winds today?"

If the wind is light and variable, the question will be sneakier, "What if the wind was (insert crosswind here)?" And if the DPE didn't hear something about max crosswind component they might add, "Are there any safety considerations?"

Listen carefully "between the lines" during the oral. DPEs rarely ask direct questions. They want to see if you can make the connections between the real world and the POH.

Also, when I solo'd a few weeks ago (second solo although my first solo was in May so this was kind of like a first solo all over again) I could not believe he let me go in crosswinds / gusts (not as bad, numbers not as high) since he kept hoping the winds would improve. After 3-5 landings and compliments (he never gives praise) he got out of the plane.... so maybe his confidence in my abilities (and my confidence) is changing.

My CFI got smarter as my checkride approached too!! (Huge grin!) They keep getting smarter every year after too. Crazy! Gosh darn it my parents did the same thing over the years. Impressive.

Regardless, today I will bring up these topics with him but I am more on Henning's side - I tell my CFI a lot that I'd rather practice crosswinds now during my training than find out about them after I'm a pilot. Especially because a lot of them sneak up on you and only rear their ugly head AFTER you've already departed and are therefore coming back from your flight.

Heh. There's no "sides". Everyone needs experience in squirrelly winds. I applaud you carefully pushing your personal envelope. And the book has numbers for when you're squarely inside the airplane's tested envelope that keeps the manufacturer and insurance companies happy (and FAA folks) and you have to memorize them and be able to know when you're outside of them.

Am I going to say I've never landed the 182 outside the max demonstrated crosswind component? Depends on which insurance company person is reading this post. Ha.

For extra credit, as far as pilot knowledge goes, what factors in most Cessnas limit how much crosswind they can handle and what's the effect in the cockpit? Hint: Which control surface is fully deflected and what does the sight picture out the front window look like when you can't fix it?

I wasn't judging your decision at all. Just adding info and helping you apply the next step... 'cause from what I'm reading you're hitting that knowledge and skill level where it's time to start "putting it all together" for the checkride. It's coming sooner than you think...

Picking on the POH crosswind thing this thus, a compliment not a judgement on your decision to make the landing, see?

When you start babbling about crosswind components and whipping out your E6B to figure out what it is on a day that's "on the edge", you're starting to enter that "pilot geek nirvana" that all pilots are constantly in.

You tune in the local ATIS or call the phone number when the wind kicks up, even if you're not going flying, just to see if you could handle it. The temperature hits 90F and you go run the DA numbers for 90F at KLXV to see if your airplane is even within it's Service Ceiling sitting on the ground. Your friends look at you funny when you accidentally let things slip like "Wow, my rate of climb would only be about two hundred feet per minute today!" when you're on their back porch sweating and drinking a beer at a BBQ with non-pilot folk.

Applying the book knowledge to the real world is right where you're at in the process now. It's great fun to watch your stories and the other students here. Takes us all right back in our minds to our own check rides and training and the things learned even afterward.

Running the book numbers, adding a little personal safety margin on top of them for your 35 year old airplane maybe not performing 100% as it did brand new in Wichita, and then doing the takeoff and seeing what trees going by only 50' below at the end of the runway is slightly butt puckering the first time, but you think "wow, the book was dead-on!". Same thing with crosswinds, time to climb, power settings vs fuel flow and time Enroute, this is what the XC's are all about underneath the fear of "will I be able to navigate and find the airport?" You're consciously or unconsciously gaining confidence that the "system" works.

Fun fun fun!! I love reading about it.

So... I know money's tight, but have you thought about where your first trip is going to be with the airplane after you're a fully licensed Private Pilot, and who you're taking along for the flight?

 

[Henning]

BTW, if you are going to crash a plane, it is much better to crash it as a student pilot.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I'm not judging. I've certainly landed in conditions that were pushing the X-wind numbers. Just reminding you that some clubs have rules against exceeding the max demonstrated crosswind component and lots of insurance companies do too.

Really?

http://www.avemco.com/Articles/ART0006-2010.pdf

 

[denverpilot]

"Claims not covered under the policy." - Some clubs with accidents get some rather entertaining limitations slapped on them for years afterward.

Others just have strange limitations on them because that's what the owner who put the aircraft on leaseback to the club, paid for.

I flew a Husky on leaseback that the book with the keys said, "Shall not be flown above the maximum demonstrated crosswind component" and the club made you sign a form that you were 100% responsible for any damages to the aircraft if flown outside the club rules in the book.

That article is great for owners who've also read and know their policy cold. It's not so great for renters who (usually) haven't.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Okay Dad, I've gotta disagree with you on this one...

Thoughts...

50 degrees off runway heading at 20 knots is a 15.3 knot crosswind component.

What's the maximum demonstrated crosswind component for your aircraft from the POH?

Completely irrelevant. It's not a limitation, and the 15 knots is, I believe, the minimum demonstrated crosswind necessary for certification, so nobody ever bothers "demonstrating" anything past that.

Were you a test pilot?

Since crosswind limitations are mostly a pilot limitation and not an airplane limitation, by that sense we've all been test pilots as we've increased our skills in winds.

I'm not judging. I've certainly landed in conditions that were pushing the X-wind numbers. Just reminding you that some clubs have rules against exceeding the max demonstrated crosswind component and lots of insurance companies do too.

Until you can show me some documentation, I call bull**** on the insurance thing. I've also rented airplanes from a LOT of places and I have NEVER seen a limitation that you can't exceed the max crosswind component in a rental agreement. Even the most nanny-ish rental agreement I've ever seen didn't have that (this, from a place that requires ANY pilot, even an ATP, to have any XC flight signed off by one of their CFI's. Seriously. )

Sometimes it's time to put the airplane away and play with the other toys when the wind picks up.

Only if the wind significantly exceeds your known capabilities and experience. If it only slightly exceeds what you've done before, it's time to go practice. If it significantly exceeds what you've done before, THEN put the plane away and play with the other toys.

And if it really goes nuts, finding another runway more aligned with the wind, makes sense.

Yes - Definitely.

What was the forecast in the TAF? Was the crosswind kicking up predicted?

Pop quiz: Which TAF should she use for flying out of O69?

 

[denverpilot]

Dad? I ain't yo daddy!

See Husky post above. The aircraft is no longer on the line up there so it'd be hard to get you documentation now. I'd have to ask at the old club if they still have anything like that going on.

At Independence Aviation at KAPA some guy who crashed a Cirrus landing above max demonstrated in AZ has an interesting story. IA is way out of my price range, so I don't know any way to get you more details, but I think you heard the audio recording I posted to FB of the guy calling into talk radio here in Denver all ticked off that they refused to rent him another Cirrus for his FAA ride to get his ticket back, and no one else around here rents Cirri.

That guy had a bunch of other things against him like almost running out of gas because "the airplane didn't tell me" too, and was upset the club didn't care about his personal situation after they learned he and his three pax were uninjured, so he wasn't the brightest bulb in the batch. It's business. I doubt he ever graces the left seat of a Cirrus again unless he owns it and jumps through more hoops.

But bottom line is that the guy attempted a crosswind landing he couldn't handle (number one problem) and the FAA said he needs a re-ride, and IA is not allowed to ever rent him an aircraft ever again. I'm guessing that's at the request of their insurance underwriter. I can't imagine a club tossing someone they checked out and taught to fly their aircraft. The CFI at least should have gone to bat for the guy he signed off.

Since clubs typically don't have to provide names to insurers, that insurer may end up covering him again if he ever goes back up, but he'll have to fill out the form most rental places have for anyone who checks the "Have you had an accident?" checkbox, and I'd bet if the next club has the same underwriter, the answer will come back -- No. Certainly not for his FAA ride and not without some remedial training.

He himself says that both the club and the FAA focused on the fact that he was above max demonstrated crosswind component when the accident occurred as the reason for the re-ride. Can't say I've heard the other side, but some CFI at IA signed off on him flying their aircraft sometime in the past too, and I would suppose his butt is also in a smaller but similar sling. Don't know.

If you remember the recording, "All they wanted was the check for the deductible and they won't talk to me anymore" or something like that was his main complaint.

Frankly the recording made it sound like there were other reasons for the re-ride and banning but hey, they signed him off to rent the thing...

I also wonder if he'd have pulled the chute instead if that would have made the insurer happier, and what else went on behind the scenes.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Dad? I ain't yo daddy!

Sure sounded like a daddy in that post, though.

See Husky post above. The aircraft is no longer on the line up there so it'd be hard to get you documentation now. I'd have to ask at the old club if they still have anything like that going on.

That's one guy with a leaseback airplane's preference. Doesn't sound like it was a club rule (or it'd have applied to the other planes too) or an insurance rule.

At Independence Aviation at KAPA some guy who crashed a Cirrus landing above max demonstrated in AZ has an interesting story. IA is way out of my price range, so I don't know any way to get you more details, but I think you heard the audio recording I posted to FB of the guy calling into talk radio here in Denver all ticked off that they refused to rent him another Cirrus for his FAA ride to get his ticket back, and no one else around here rents Cirri.

Lots of people have trouble getting planes for 709 rides, when they crash the only rentable example in the area. Now, did he crash it because he landed above max demonstrated, or because he was a ****ty pilot? Sounds like the latter.

But bottom line is that the guy attempted a crosswind landing he couldn't handle (number one problem) and the FAA said he needs a re-ride, and IA is not allowed to ever rent him an aircraft ever again.

Not allowed to, or simply doesn't want to?

I'm guessing that's at the request of their insurance underwriter.

I'm guessing that's at the whim of the owner/BOD/aircraft owners/etc.

Since clubs typically don't have to provide names to insurers

Says who? We have to send a list of members to Avemco every year, and Avemco requires less info than any other insurer we've found. All the others wanted not only names, but total hours, time in each type we own, and a bunch of other crap from every member's logbook.

BTW, I can't find an NTSB report in Colorado that meets your description... Got any more info?

 

[denverpilot]

Sure sounded like a daddy in that post, though.

Damn. Didn't intend that. Was going for more like, "Stuff my CFI said around that time in my training."

That's one guy with a leaseback airplane's preference. Doesn't sound like it was a club rule (or it'd have applied to the other planes too) or an insurance rule.

No, they were very clear it was an insurance rule in the Husky. Otherwise they couldn't afford to have it on the line.

Lots of people have trouble getting planes for 709 rides, when they crash the only rentable example in the area. Now, did he crash it because he landed above max demonstrated, or because he was a ****ty pilot? Sounds like the latter.

No comment. You trying to get me into a slander suit?

Not allowed to, or simply doesn't want to?

Well, they wanted to rent to him prior to the crash. Guess there are some places that would change their minds (and CFIs) after one. If the guy was a total disaster waiting to happen they never should have signed him off. But like I said, I only know one person over there and he hired on well after this occurred.

I'm guessing that's at the whim of the owner/BOD/aircraft owners/etc.

Perhaps. I tend to think rental places have rented to people who've f-ed up airplanes before so the insurance is somehow involved since they have multiple Cirri. Tough situation for them if most of their aircraft are leasebacks. I could see owners being pretty testy about renting to someone who'd snapped a Cirrus in half.

I could also see them all hanging their hats on the "max crosswind" thing as a way to chicken out of having to say "We just don't want to rent to you anymore," to the guy's face. Political correctness and politeness and such as it all is these days.

Says who? We have to send a list of members to Avemco every year, and Avemco requires less info than any other insurer we've found. All the others wanted not only names, but total hours, time in each type we own, and a bunch of other crap from every member's logbook.

I swear there was a thread here recently that said clubs didn't typically have to do that. I was basing the comment off of that. I obviously don't run a club.

BTW, I can't find an NTSB report in Colorado that meets your description... Got any more info?

The crash was in Flagstaff, AZ I believe.

As additional fodder, Civil Air Patrol says a Flight Release Officer can't release a crew to fly if the forecast is above max demonstrated crosswind. Not directly an insurance thing since they're self-insured but kinda.

You break the CAP airplane and someone pulls the weather, I bet their "variable" deductible the crew would be responsible for, for certain missions (up to the value of the aircraft on a C-mission) would be quite high. Yes, I said crew. Not pilot. Choose your CAP pilot friends you're willing to crew for wisely.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

No, they were very clear it was an insurance rule in the Husky. Otherwise they couldn't afford to have it on the line.

The "our insurance requires it" is a common excuse/cop-out for those who make up stupid rules on their own. I wouldn't believe it until I saw the policy myself.

The crash was in Flagstaff, AZ I believe.

Aha... Winslow, I think: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110401X03400&key=1

But, they do not say anything anywhere in the report about exceeding the max demonstrated crosswind component. 320 at 16G27, runway 29... That means that he did not, in fact, exceed the max demonstrated crosswind component as the crosswind during a gust would have been only 13.5 knots.

As additional fodder, Civil Air Patrol says a Flight Release Officer can't release a crew to fly if the forecast is above max demonstrated crosswind. Not directly an insurance thing since they're self-insured but kinda.

They have a lot of rules... Not surprising, it's government. I sure hope I don't crash on a windy day.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

BTW, if you are going to crash a plane, it is much better to crash it as a student pilot.

Um, sorry, didn't crash today. Gotta do some stuff and then will post about it later! Basically did most of the checkrides stuff, some very well and some.... not so well .....


Kimberly

 

[EdFred]

The "our insurance requires it" is a common excuse/cop-out for those who make up stupid rules on their own. I wouldn't believe it until I saw the policy myself.

Yup. Had that happen, and said can I see the insurance policy. Sure enough, the insurance had no such requirement, and it was simply the flight school using it as an excuse.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

have you thought about where your first trip is going to be with the airplane after you're a fully licensed Private Pilot, and who you're taking along for the flight?

Not really. At first I was very excited about passengers and now I realize how much responsibility all this really is (someone else's life in my hands).

But to answer your question - I guess my Dad, because, though he never talked about it, he was a pilot in the Air Force and flew 4-engine planes (C-130's). He didn't convert all that flying into getting his private license and he regrets that.... so he hasn't flown in a small plane since - gosh - maybe 30 - 40 years ago?

I am "assuming" he will go with me, perhaps for a short scenic flight around the area.

No real "trips" planned since airplanes have all those minimum hours if you keep them overnight which makes it expensive and I don't have anyone to split the costs with me.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

No real "trips" planned since airplanes have all those minimum hours if you keep them overnight which makes it expensive and I don't have anyone to split the costs with me.

That just means you need to go farther away. No sense flying 1/2 hour away for the weekend, y'know... That could be driven! Three hours each way is more like it for a weekend trip, and that should take care of the minimum hours for most places.

 

[EdFred]

That just means you need to go farther away. No sense flying 1/2 hour away for the weekend, y'know... That could be driven! Three hours each way is more like it for a weekend trip, and that should take care of the minimum hours for most places.

If you've got the extra $750 to spend...

 

[kimberlyanne546]

That just means you need to go farther away. No sense flying 1/2 hour away for the weekend, y'know... That could be driven! Three hours each way is more like it for a weekend trip, and that should take care of the minimum hours for most places.

I just said I can't afford 6 hours in a plane! I mean, I guess you can but not all of us can. Unfortunately, I'm so close to the checkride I'm having to use a credit card at this point and no one likes that but it is the reality. I can't "justify" going 6 hours away because it is "fun". Sorry. I haven't been on a real vacation since 2005 - as silly as it sounds the 6Y9 fly in will be my first commercial airline flight in 6 years and my first vacation that has lasted more than a day or two.

 

[Henning]

I just said I can't afford 6 hours in a plane! I mean, I guess you can but not all of us can. Unfortunately, I'm so close to the checkride I'm having to use a credit card at this point and no one likes that but it is the reality. I can't "justify" going 6 hours away because it is "fun". Sorry. I haven't been on a real vacation since 2005 - as silly as it sounds the 6Y9 fly in will be my first commercial airline flight in 6 years and my first vacation that has lasted more than a day or two.

What!?!?! He's not picking you up in SF? Shoooooottttt.... I used to fly dates from Long Beach to SF just for dinner at Masa's...

 

[kimberlyanne546]

What!?!?! He's not picking you up in SF? Shoooooottttt.... I used to fly dates from Long Beach to SF just for dinner at Masa's...

Who is not picking who up? I bought a non-refundable plane ticket to meet him - uh - I mean to go to the 6Y9 fly-in and stuff.

 

[Henning]

Who is not picking who up? I bought a non-refundable plane ticket to meet him - uh - I mean to go to the 6Y9 fly-in and stuff.

ah-huh...

 

[kimberlyanne546]

ah-huh...

No - really! There aren't any fly-ins on this half of the US in the next three months anyways. I practically had to buy a ticket to . . . um . . . GRR and stuff.

 

[Henning]

No - really! There aren't any fly-ins on this half of the US in the next three months anyways. I practically had to buy a ticket to . . . um . . . GRR and stuff.

Yeah yeah... whatever... I woulda picked you up and flown you through the mountains and desert GA style, down in it with a view....

 

[kimberlyanne546]

What!?!?! He's not picking you up in SF? Shoooooottttt.... I used to fly dates from Long Beach to SF just for dinner at Masa's...

Sure, but you KNEW THOSE GIRLS. He hasn't even met me. Hell, according to posts on this board, I am either:

- a man

- a version of Ed

- a version of Ron

- invisible / imaginary / non-existent.

So in that situation, you sure as h e l l would not fly the girl anywhere. If she / he even is a girl.

 

[Henning]

Sure, but you KNEW THOSE GIRLS. He hasn't even met me. Hell, according to posts on this board, I am either:

- a man

- a version of Ed

- a version of Ron

- invisible / imaginary / non-existent.

So in that situation, you sure as h e l l would not fly the girl anywhere. If she / he even is a girl.

You could be an Ed induced version of Ron, but then, you're too tall... I'd at least fly out and check you out. Any excuse to fly through the Rockies...

 

[kimberlyanne546]

You could be an Ed induced version of Ron, but then, you're too tall...

I'm only 5'6" tall.

 

[Henning]

I'm only 5'6" tall.

like I said...

 

[kimberlyanne546]

an update.

So I flew on Sunday and I wish I knew it was a MOCK CHECK RIDE. The reason I say "I wish I knew" is because we did a de-brief and he kept saying "I can't sign you off if you are going to say things like that." What he meant was this: I asked questions, or voiced my "forgetfulness" of old maneuvers from March, or didn't know how to figure out wind, or doubted VOR or whatever. He wanted me to do / say / perform as if he was the DPE. When I can do that up to / above standard he will sign me off.

I hated (seriously) my landings and should have done go-arounds. I hated the turbulence and it affected me a lot. I hated the fact I suck at figuring out wind direction. We still did not do S-Turns (why???) and to this day I do not know - at least in practice - what an S-Turn is or a Rectangular Course (grrr). My steep turns are "ninety-four percent" there according to the CFI - I think I lost almost no altitude on the one to the left and gained 100 or 200 feet on the one to the right - but didn't memorize the PTS and lost airspeed.... yikes. I guess I started and ended them too slow. VOR was not so hot, stalls were OK except I had to ask about the degrees of bank for an accelerated stall and the setup for power etc, slow flight was OK and included turning to headings and tuning radios and other multi-tasking, stall horn blaring the entire time, airspeed probably lower than the indicator could even show. I was "supposed to have memorized" some flight following frequency that he told me to tune into because it wasn't on the chart. I think I will make a thing to wear around my neck for the checkride with all possible VORs (including ident morse code) and frequecies and stuff. Just so I have it.

When my instructor said I should study or cancel today's flight he was trying to say that to save money I should come prepared and not have any questions about any manuevers etc. We flew again tonight to do some parts of the checkride we did not do last time. We went to a nearby airport (tough one) because wouldn't you know it - the silly DPE won't let you fly to your home airport at all. You have to practice shorts / softs at some unfamiliar airport (yikes). This sucks because it adds a lot of stress, at least for me. Finding the airport, knowing the patterns / TPA / CTAF / AWOS etc. And most of them are not as wide or as long as my runway especially 0Q9.

I do not have a clue how many more flights we need before he signs me off but my guess is at least 1-5 more after tonight.


Kimberly

PS - even my emergency landing sucked. I "by chance" picked a field that was pointed into the wind but only after he reminded me to look everywhere (wasn't finding a spot without power poles or water on my left). I spiraled around the wrong place, outside of the "pattern," I incorrectly judged wind (said there was no wind), and I'm sure a whole host of other things like what to say or what checklist to follow, what a nightmare.

 

[gkainz]

Sounds like you're ready then! I think feeling like you've lost everything you learned is one of the signs!

 

[Henning]

So, why are you having so much trouble determining the wind direction? The rest of everything sounds like it went ok. As for not landing at your home drome, that's strictly psychological except at San Carlos when the wind is coming off the hill side of the runway. If that's the situation, pick a landing spot about 1/4 way down the runway, past the hangars, and tell the DE that's your aim point because it's clear of the wind mess the buildings cause and still leaves you with plenty of runway. It really doesn't matter what airport you land at, the plane can't tell the difference.

 

[bobmrg]

an update.

So I flew on Sunday and I wish I knew it was a MOCK CHECK RIDE. The reason I say "I wish I knew" is because we did a de-brief and he kept saying "I can't sign you off if you are going to say things like that." What he meant was this: I asked questions, or voiced my "forgetfulness" of old maneuvers from March, or didn't know how to figure out wind, or doubted VOR or whatever. He wanted me to do / say / perform as if he was the DPE. When I can do that up to / above standard he will sign me off.

I hated (seriously) my landings and should have done go-arounds. I hated the turbulence and it affected me a lot. I hated the fact I suck at figuring out wind direction. We still did not do S-Turns (why???) and to this day I do not know - at least in practice - what an S-Turn is or a Rectangular Course (grrr). My steep turns are "ninety-four percent" there according to the CFI - I think I lost almost no altitude on the one to the left and gained 100 or 200 feet on the one to the right - but didn't memorize the PTS and lost airspeed.... yikes. I guess I started and ended them too slow. VOR was not so hot, stalls were OK except I had to ask about the degrees of bank for an accelerated stall and the setup for power etc, slow flight was OK and included turning to headings and tuning radios and other multi-tasking, stall horn blaring the entire time, airspeed probably lower than the indicator could even show. I was "supposed to have memorized" some flight following frequency that he told me to tune into because it wasn't on the chart. I think I will make a thing to wear around my neck for the checkride with all possible VORs (including ident morse code) and frequecies and stuff. Just so I have it.

When my instructor said I should study or cancel today's flight he was trying to say that to save money I should come prepared and not have any questions about any manuevers etc. We flew again tonight to do some parts of the checkride we did not do last time. We went to a nearby airport (tough one) because wouldn't you know it - the silly DPE won't let you fly to your home airport at all. You have to practice shorts / softs at some unfamiliar airport (yikes). This sucks because it adds a lot of stress, at least for me. Finding the airport, knowing the patterns / TPA / CTAF / AWOS etc. And most of them are not as wide or as long as my runway especially 0Q9.

I do not have a clue how many more flights we need before he signs me off but my guess is at least 1-5 more after tonight.


Kimberly

PS - even my emergency landing sucked. I "by chance" picked a field that was pointed into the wind but only after he reminded me to look everywhere (wasn't finding a spot without power poles or water on my left). I spiraled around the wrong place, outside of the "pattern," I incorrectly judged wind (said there was no wind), and I'm sure a whole host of other things like what to say or what checklist to follow, what a nightmare.

I cover S-turns in a general way on page 1-21 in THE COMPLETE PRIVATE PILOT...I know that you have a copy. For a more detailed explanation of this and other ground reference materials, go to www.faa.gov and type Airplane Flying Handbook into the search box. When you have the pub on the screen, scroll down to page 6-6 (for S-turns...the rest are in adjoining pages.

Bob Gardner

 

[Henning]

BTW Kim, have you ever gone sailing? It's a great way to get to understand wind and flying.

 

[Everskyward]

So I flew on Sunday and I wish I knew it was a MOCK CHECK RIDE. The reason I say "I wish I knew" is because we did a de-brief and he kept saying "I can't sign you off if you are going to say things like that." What he meant was this: I asked questions, or voiced my "forgetfulness" of old maneuvers from March, or didn't know how to figure out wind, or doubted VOR or whatever. He wanted me to do / say / perform as if he was the DPE. When I can do that up to / above standard he will sign me off.

I think this is part of what I was getting at when I cautioned people not to talk too much during the checkride. You don't need to voice everything you feel, especially your insecurities. You don't necessarily want to be doing this with passengers either and the examiner is acting as an observing passenger. If you really don't understand some of these items you need more study or instruction. It would also a be a good idea to understand the concepts on the ground before trying them again in the airplane so, in this case, I agree with your instructor.

Don't get too discouraged, though. Everyone goes through ups and downs and many times there are downs as you are getting ready for a checkride.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

BTW Kim, have you ever gone sailing? It's a great way to get to understand wind and flying.

No I have never gone sailing. One of the reasons I couldn't tell wind direction at that time was because there were no ripples on any water features. So my instructor told me to do wind "guesses" in this order, from best to worst:

1. Look for smoke / water to figure out where the wind is coming from
2. Remember the AWOS you got from departure airport / tune in to a few local AWOS's now for wind information
3. Remember the winds aloft forecast from your weather brief
4. Know that the winds normally blow from the West
5. "Guess" or say "there is no wind"


Kimberly

 

[Henning]

No I have never gone sailing. One of the reasons I couldn't tell wind direction at that time was because there were no ripples on any water features. So my instructor told me to do wind "guesses" in this order, from best to worst:

1. Look for smoke / water to figure out where the wind is coming from
2. Remember the AWOS you got from departure airport / tune in to a few local AWOS's now for wind information
3. Remember the winds aloft forecast from your weather brief
4. Know that the winds normally blow from the West
5. "Guess" or say "there is no wind"


Kimberly

If you have good eyesight and can't see a ripple on the water on final at PAO, you basically have no wind, maybe a few knots out of the West, nothing that will disturb you. When you're on short final, you should have the windsock in sight. Winds aloft have absolutely nothing to do with winds on landing, nada. AWOS-ASOS is old information, useless to landing. Last time I landed at PAO the AWOS said landing 29 from the south, when I got there tower told me I was on downwind.

The only thing that counts is the windsock. That is the best and over riding piece of data for that runway, and even it can lie if it's not in the touch down zone. Just watch what the plane is doing and correct for it. Not lined up, give it some more rudder, slipping off to the side, more aileron.... Knowing the winds themselves don't really matter that much, all they do is give you an early clue of what to set up for, but it's all information you'll figure out shortly regardless. The plane will tell you what's going on even if you never see the windsock, but I'm pretty sure there's one off to the right there at both ends of PAO.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

If you have good eyesight and can't see a ripple on the water on final at PAO, you basically have no wind, maybe a few knots out of the West, nothing that will disturb you. When you're on short final, you should have the windsock in sight. Winds aloft have absolutely nothing to do with winds on landing, nada. AWOS-ASOS is old information, useless to landing. Last time I landed at PAO the AWOS said landing 29 from the south, when I got there tower told me I was on downwind.

The only thing that counts is the windsock. That is the best and over riding piece of data for that runway, and even it can lie if it's not in the touch down zone. Just watch what the plane is doing and correct for it. Not lined up, give it some more rudder, slipping off to the side, more aileron.... Knowing the winds themselves don't really matter that much, all they do is give you an early clue of what to set up for, but it's all information you'll figure out shortly regardless. The plane will tell you what's going on even if you never see the windsock, but I'm pretty sure there's one off to the right there at both ends of PAO.

Windsock? I was talking about screwing up my emergency landing to a field in the middle of nowhere.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

If you have good eyesight and can't see a ripple on the water on final at PAO, you basically have no wind, maybe a few knots out of the West, nothing that will disturb you. When you're on short final, you should have the windsock in sight. Winds aloft have absolutely nothing to do with winds on landing, nada. AWOS-ASOS is old information, useless to landing. Last time I landed at PAO the AWOS said landing 29 from the south, when I got there tower told me I was on downwind.

The only thing that counts is the windsock. That is the best and over riding piece of data for that runway, and even it can lie if it's not in the touch down zone. Just watch what the plane is doing and correct for it. Not lined up, give it some more rudder, slipping off to the side, more aileron.... Knowing the winds themselves don't really matter that much, all they do is give you an early clue of what to set up for, but it's all information you'll figure out shortly regardless. The plane will tell you what's going on even if you never see the windsock, but I'm pretty sure there's one off to the right there at both ends of PAO.

Also, I had to Google "PAO". I fly out of O69. Never been to PAO and my airport is untowered. I thought the AWOS was updated every one minute though?

 

[Henning]

Also, I had to Google "PAO". I fly out of O69. Never been to PAO and my airport is untowered. I thought the AWOS was updated every one minute though?

Oh. I mistook the golf course, thought the buildings were a bit off.

 

[Henning]

Windsock? I was talking about screwing up my emergency landing to a field in the middle of nowhere.

Oh, ok, well then, if you can't see ripples on the water, wind is not a factor concentrate on hitting your mark, the plane will show you what it needs just like any other landing. BTW, that's why we practice putting it "on the numbers" so the sight picture that you have burned in is going to provide you the shortest landing possible when you need it. When you get your ticket, make every 3rd landing short field and try to stick the mains on the threshold stripe.

 

[Jaybird180]

My DPE in his pre-ride breifing informed me that I should not give any indication if a maneuver is below standard, that is his job. And if I tell him that I performed below standard, he has no alternative but to agree.

A few posts back someone asked the question about Max X-wind and control deflection. This is the "key" to the X-winds issue and I agree with remaining inside the test envelope UNLESS it's your airplane, you know it very well, and .... I forget the other IF. Nevertheless, the rudder is the limiting controls for X-winds. If you cannot maintain longitudinal alignment with full rudder, better to land at an alternate.

 

[Jaybird180]

If funds are tight, I should also mention that I found short flights to have nearly as much training benefit as longer flights.

 

[Henning]

If funds are tight, I should also mention that I found short flights to have nearly as much training benefit as longer flights.

Yeah, I think if you can split 2 hrs across 3 lessons in a week will do better than 2 1hr lessons and that's kinda the minimum for having efficient training.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Yeah, I think if you can split 2 hrs across 3 lessons in a week will do better than 2 1hr lessons and that's kinda the minimum for having efficient training.

This will be hard to do. Even "short" lessons are about 1.3 hours these days. However I am still insisting on a mid week lesson and a weekend lesson, at the bare minimum, to keep very current in my flying. I hate feeling rusty after a week of. We flew on Tuesday and that's not really mid week but oh well.

Tuesday consisted of flying to a nearby "difficult" airport with a short field. He does not allow students to solo there. Trees / winds / etc. It is 0Q9 Sonoma Skypark. Tiny airport. I did not do that well on my short field landings (400 ft instead of 200 ft) but they got better each time. Quite challenging there with the winds. I was happy I found the airport without a sectional. Also practiced was emergency on takeoff (engine failure) and I forgot what to do so I just said "that field there!" really fast. We also, either this lesson or last, did engine out above my home airport, so gliding in and some more short and soft field takeoffs. He is asking me to grade them now and also telling me if they would "pass" or not so I know we're nearing the home stretch.

We fly again on Sunday we will do more oral (airplane systems) and then most likely more flying stuff like unusual attitudes and power on stalls with and without a turn (accelerated). After our flight I am going to fly solo, I have about 1.2 solo hours left to do and not sure if I will simply do half and then the other half another weekend.