How to Annoy Bravo Controllers

[ARFlyer]

I know, I know another Bravo thread, but this actually went down last night.

My coworker, his student, and I got hungry for BBQ last night and decided to fly to Memphis. Which we later regretted with last nights winds!

Upon reaching the Bravo airspace we were told to turn left to 060* which thus began a 20 min ordeal of very annoyed controllers.

Every few miles the controller would ask for our heading, which we kept giving as 060. After three or four "check your heading" calls, the controller told us that we tracking 090 and we were suppose to be tracking 060. The rest of the conversation went like this:

MEM APP "N123AB, TURN left 030 and check your DG!!"

US: "030 and the DG agrees with our compass"

*few mins*

MEM APP: "N123AB, TURN 20* left NOW"

US: "20 Left and the winds are pretty wicked up here"

MEM APP: "Yeah......Thanks"

Winds were reporting around 45 knots which had us doing a 50* crab angle. Leaving KMEM we had a ground speed of 30-45KTS on climb-out.

To make them even more happy our transponder decided intermittently to report our altitude as roughly 800'-600' off.

 

[flyingron]

One day on final for 1L at IAD (now 1C) I noticed I was holding close to a 45 degree crab to the left. Now 1L's approach crosses over the end of 30. There was also traffic heading to 1R as well

27K: If I promise not to move any further east can I land on 30.
IAD: Navion 27K runway 30 cleared to land.

just about the time I touch down I hear

UNI: Tower United 230 can we have 30 as well?
IAD: United 230 Cleared To Land 30.

As I turned off onto the taxiway I could see this 767 banking hard to line up on 30.

I guess they figured if I could have 30, they could have it.

 

[jordane93]

I had a similar experience except I wasn't landing at a Bravo airport. I IFR from FRG to ALB and I was given radar vector to BDR VOR on a really windy day and they told me to check my heading about 5 times.

 

[EdFred]

Easily taken care of with a

"What course do you want us on?"

 

[ARFlyer]

Easily taken care of with a

"What course do you want us on?"

Yeah, when he finally said the course he wanted they just flew the GPS. I was in the back shaking my head at ATC

 

[MAKG1]

I freaked out a NorCal controller flying under a low B shelf at 1400, when my transponder decided to tell them I was at 1600. "Cessna 123XY say altitude" "One thousand four hundred" every minute or so.

It was over water with obstructions, so I was dang well going to fly it at 1400 and not 1200.

 

[EdFred]

Yeah, when he finally said the course he wanted they just flew the GPS. I was in the back shaking my head at ATC

After the second check your heading, I would have Barney Fife'd that situation.

"I am flying the heading you assigned me, the HSI checks out, the compass checks out. What course do you want?"

 

[Henning]

After the second check your heading, I would have Barney Fife'd that situation.

"I am flying the heading you assigned me, the HSI checks out, the compass checks out. What course do you want?"

No need to give them attitude, what do you think that's going to accomplish? "Yeah, lot of wind up here, if you give me a course, I have the gear to track it if it makes it easier on you."

Same result with a completely different relationship.

 

[timwinters]

Easily taken care of with a

"What course do you want us on?"

I look forward to the day when ATC gives us instructions in "track" instead of "heading". Far more aircraft have a GPS than don't (especially true of those using ATC services) and it eliminates all the mental gymnastics required of ATC when winds are strong.

Is there any valid reason why we shouldn't convert to track?

 

[Henning]

I look forward to the day when ATC gives us instructions in "track" instead of "heading". Far more aircraft have a GPS than don't (especially true of those using ATC services) and it eliminates all the mental gymnastics required of ATC when winds are strong.

Is there any valid reason why we shouldn't convert to track?

Until EVERYONE has GPS by order, they will not be able to do that. Standardization in things like this requires lowest common denominator equipment.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I look forward to the day when ATC gives us instructions in "track" instead of "heading". Far more aircraft have a GPS than don't (especially true of those using ATC services) and it eliminates all the mental gymnastics required of ATC when winds are strong.

Is there any valid reason why we shouldn't convert to track?

The fact that a ton of aircraft DON'T have the equipment to verify track? Not everyone has a GPS in their bird. Even when I fly aircraft with the GPS, I rarely use it. It's not too different from making everyone go to ADS-B when things work fine as they are.

 

[timwinters]

Until EVERYONE has GPS by order, they will not be able to do that. Standardization in things like this requires lowest common denominator equipment.

Why? If the person doesn't have GPS then ATC simply does the mental gymnastics in the opposite direction of what they're doing now and manually adjust a person's heading to conform to the track he wants just like he does now. "Turn 20 degrees right."

It's the same thing as what they're doing now and they'd have to do those gymnastics far less often because far more people have a GPS than don't these days.

 

[EdFred]

No need to give them attitude, what do you think that's going to accomplish? "Yeah, lot of wind up here, if you give me a course, I have the gear to track it if it makes it easier on you."

Same result with a completely different relationship.

No attitude given. Voice inflection accomplishes a great deal. Hell, I've gotten block altitudes inside the Bravo. Then again, you are the expert on everything, so I will defer.

 

[Henning]

Why? If the person doesn't have GPS then ATC simply does the mental gymnastics in the opposite direction of what they're doing now and manually adjust a person's heading to conform to the track he wants just like he does now. "Turn 20 degrees right."

It's the same thing as what they're doing now and they'd have to do those gymnastics far less often because far more people have a GPS than don't these days.

There are several things you can ask for but the controller cannot initiate, why doesn't always seem to make a lot of sense. I suspect in this case the major factor is that if you use 'track' as the standard call, you will get back a lot of 'unable' which will propagate the 'whiny *****' factor from people who are angry because they were made to feel inferior in public, but more importantly, you will get the people who will not say 'unable' and 'wing it' on their own which will lead to more problems.

I could see offering controllers the option to issue 'track' instructions on /G planes, and that may come to pass, but remember, that requires a re-write of the 7110 orders, and that is not a rapidly adapting, evolving document; if they start thinking about it now, you could expect a result in 10 years.

 

[ARFlyer]

No attitude given. Voice inflection accomplishes a great deal. Hell, I've gotten block altitudes inside the Bravo. Then again, you are the expert on everything, so I will defer.

I agree on how your voice sounds. When we had that "Uhhhhh, we are 060" call, I think it finally clued him in.

It defiantly helped on the transponder issues. We were in mid call when it started freaking out.

 

[Palmpilot]

I look forward to the day when ATC gives us instructions in "track" instead of "heading". Far more aircraft have a GPS than don't (especially true of those using ATC services) and it eliminates all the mental gymnastics required of ATC when winds are strong.

Is there any valid reason why we shouldn't convert to track?

Making course instructions the standard instead of heading might be OK for VFR, but there are still a fair number of rental planes that don't have IFR GPSes installed, and even those that do don't always have an up-to-date database.

 

[Lindberg]

I look forward to the day when ATC gives us instructions in "track" instead of "heading". Far more aircraft have a GPS than don't (especially true of those using ATC services) and it eliminates all the mental gymnastics required of ATC when winds are strong.

Is there any valid reason why we shouldn't convert to track?

Zero of the five aircraft I fly regularly have GPS. Only one has a transponder. I don't assume my experience is typical, but it is what it is.

 

[SoonerAviator]

It's the same thing as what they're doing now and they'd have to do those gymnastics far less often because far more people have a GPS than don't these days.

Awfully presumptuous. I bet the number of small GA aircraft with GPS is less than half. I don't have any numbers (or know where you could get them), but not everyone flies IFR, and not everyone who flies IFR does so with GPS. Lots of bug smashers out there with original 1960's equipment.

 

[EdFred]

Awfully presumptuous. I bet the number of small GA aircraft with GPS is less than half. I don't have any numbers (or know where you could get them), but not everyone flies IFR, and not everyone who flies IFR does so with GPS. Lots of bug smashers out there with original 1960's equipment.

In Bravo Airspace?

 

[Apache123]

In Bravo Airspace?

They could just as easily make Bravo airspace require transponder AND gps. I mean, we're not even talking mode c ring, just within bravo itself.

 

[MAKG1]

In Bravo Airspace?

I've certainly flown a number of aircraft through Class B with no GPS.

Not difficult at all. And the controllers can make it real easy on VFR traffic by directing to landmarks. Excepting undercasts, of course.

"Fly direct Sutro Tower" is real easy unless you're at 1500 MSL (it's higher than that). It's probably the most visible landmark in SFO Class B, from anywhere in the airspace.

 

[jordane93]

I've certainly flown a number of aircraft through Class B with no GPS.

Not difficult at all. And the controllers can make it real easy on VFR traffic by directing to landmarks. Excepting undercasts, of course.

"Fly direct Sutro Tower" is real easy unless you're at 1500 MSL (it's higher than that). It's probably the most visible landmark in SFO Class B, from anywhere in the airspace.

Same. Especially through the NY Bravo. Just follow the shoreline and you'll to your destination.

 

[jnmeade]

Yeah, when he finally said the course he wanted they just flew the GPS. I was in the back shaking my head at ATC

If people are to fly GPS, would any GPS be OK, even the car GPS or would it have to be a TSO'd model?

 

[ja_user]

This would have been easily solved if ATC just said "Turn 30 degrees left"

 

[Henning]

No attitude given. Voice inflection accomplishes a great deal. Hell, I've gotten block altitudes inside the Bravo. Then again, you are the expert on everything, so I will defer.

Yes there is, whether you are conscious of it or not, the way you worded that you told the guy he doesn't know what he is doing, and you'll do his job for him. I point out the compexity excusing his error and point out I have equipment that can assist. One is a challenge, one is cooperation.

 

[EdFred]

Yes there is, whether you are conscious of it or not, the way you worded that you told the guy he doesn't know what he is doing, and you'll do his job for him. I point out the compexity excusing his error and point out I have equipment that can assist. One is a challenge, one is cooperation.

As expected you are also now expert on how I speak even though we've never met, and you've never heard me on the radi.. It is true, there is no topic you aren't an expert on - even me.

 

[flyingron]

I flew in the Dulles (and other) class B's with a standard silver crown stack (KX155 and KR86). Hell in most cases VFR you can SEE the primary airport from the edge of the class B. While it's not quite universal (there are some goofy places like Cleveland) there's almost always a VOR (w/DME) on the field.

 

[Palmpilot]

If people are to fly GPS, would any GPS be OK, even the car GPS or would it have to be a TSO'd model?

For IFR, the AIM says you need a TSOed GPS. Under VFR, any GPS will do, even a portable, as long as it will provide the navigation information you need to follow the instructions. As for a car GPS, if it doesn't have a database of airports, VORs, and other aviation fixes, and the capability to navigate a ground track in degrees, it would be tough to follow many ATC instructions with that.

 

[somorris]

Sorry you had a difficult time here. It may be you were coming in during a push, and the controllers were slammed. I have had nothing but good experiences with Memphis controllers, although they have commented about how slow I am going .

I hope the BBQ was good!

 

[timwinters]

It may be you were coming in during a push,

The evening traffic at MEM is Pull...the morning traffic is Push.

 

[somorris]

No surprise to me that I got that backwards like I do most things .

 

[jesse]

Call me crazy but I've always found Memphis Center to be the grumpiest of all centers. Chicago Center and Chicago Approach are by far more friendly and accommodating to me than Memphis. Maybe I did something in a previous life to Memphis.

 

[Hawker800]