How screwed am I

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I went to the HIMS Psych, paid several thousand dollars and based on the feedback he gave me it went well. A few weeks later I get this message.

Assuming HIMS Psych gave me a glowing recommendation, WTF is the point of asking me to get evaluated and spend several thousands and a huge hassle of traveling if they were going to deny anyway?

I feel completely ripped off! They don't care about wasting people's time or money, this is just a mindless, zombie checklist without any thinking being done.

If they were going to deny based on the other information in my file, they shouldn't have even asked for the psych eval in the first place
 
Just a lurker, but you will probably need to provide more details of your situation in order for one of the docs to give any meaningful feedback.
 
AmIFed said:
I went to the HIMS Psych, paid several thousand dollars and based on the feedback he gave me it went well. A few weeks later I get this message.

Assuming HIMS Psych gave me a glowing recommendation, WTF is the point of asking me to get evaluated and spend several thousands and a huge hassle of traveling if they were going to deny anyway?

I feel completely ripped off! They don't care about wasting people's time or money, this is just a mindless, zombie checklist without any thinking being done.

If they were going to deny based on the other information in my file, they shouldn't have even asked for the psych eval in the first place
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Depends on nature of your deferral and reason for denial. I’m 2 years in myself. Yes, it’s a pain. Yes, the system doesn’t make a lot of sense and it’s super frustrating.

Any details on your specific case?
 
"based on the feedback he gave me it went well"

You need to request a copy of your Airman Medical File from Jokelahoma City. You know absolutely nothing until you have that. In that file, you will find the HIMS psych evaluation report. You need to see what is in that in order to figure out where to go from here.

Until you have that in hand, everything is speculation.
 
I got the letter today, they just want me to meet with a HIMS AME and start that drug/alcohol testing process. At this point I'm kind of indifferent about the wait time anymore. I'm just glad to be one step closer to the finish line. I'd have to get a completely delusional HIMS AME to think I have a drug or alcohol problem
 
AmIFed said:
I went to the HIMS Psych, paid several thousand dollars and based on the feedback he gave me it went well. A few weeks later I get this message.

Assuming HIMS Psych gave me a glowing recommendation, WTF is the point of asking me to get evaluated and spend several thousands and a huge hassle of traveling if they were going to deny anyway?

I feel completely ripped off! They don't care about wasting people's time or money, this is just a mindless, zombie checklist without any thinking being done.

If they were going to deny based on the other information in my file, they shouldn't have even asked for the psych eval in the first place
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Go to TikTok and check out @cheesepilot (no relation). He went through this. Just got his medical back last week after 580 days and $14,000.

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7437554198297775391
 
AmIFed said:
I got the letter today, they just want me to meet with a HIMS AME and start that drug/alcohol testing process. At this point I'm kind of indifferent about the wait time anymore. I'm just glad to be one step closer to the finish line. I'd have to get a completely delusional HIMS AME to think I have a drug or alcohol problem
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He may or may not but he has to apply TOUGH FAA stds. Every one if these comes in beating his chest, like you and TikTok guy.

But the Fed stds are TOUGH. Any HIMS AME who does not apply fed stds ultimately is not doing you any favors. That piles up the costs and years.

Through all of this try to remember
You, not the FAA Got the offense(s) or has the psychiatry diagnosis.
All things equal, if the FAA Had to taken a chance on a guy with a record or a guy with none…who’re they gonna choose?

Try not to be the delusional one. Bend over, and buckle in. It’s how you succeed.
 
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bbchien said:
He may or may not but he has to apply TOUGH FAA stds. Every one if these comes in beating his chest, like you and TikTok guy.

But the Fed stds are TOUGH. Any HIMS AME who does not apply fed stds ultimately is not doing you any favors. That piles up the costs and years.

Through all of this try to remember
You, not the FAA Got the offense(s) or has the psychiatry diagnosis.
All things equal, if the FAA Had to taken a chance on a guy with a record or a guy with none…who’re they gonna choose?

Try not to be the delusional one. Bend over, and buckle in. It’s how you succeed.
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Yea well, I had a medical marijuana license about 4 years ago when I was in university. I drink 1-2 beers every 3 months. Not expecting them to take my word for it. The HIMS Psych mentioned to me he's had many people blatantly lie to him which were later caught. I understand the need to go through the drug tests. There's a few other things that I'm planning to bring up with the doctor which a reasonable person would agree make it extremely unlikely I have any sort of drug or alcohol problem. Not expecting him to diverge from the process, but if after explaining to them my situation, they were to tell me they agree with the substance abuse diagnosis, I'd be concerned with their judgement and probably just find another doctor
 
AmIFed said:
Not expecting him to diverge from the process, but if after explaining to them my situation, they were to tell me they agree with the substance abuse diagnosis, I'd be concerned with their judgement and probably just find another doctor
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Just FYI, finding another doctor is likely a big red flag for the FAA.

Even with no medical challenges at all, I had renewed my 2nd class (as a Commercial Pilot certificate holder) and then a couple months later I got a job where the insurance wanted everyone to have a first class medical, so I had to go to a new (Senior) AME and upgrade to a 1st class.

Turns out, that when you do two medicals within 90 days, the second doctor cannot issue a medical in their office, they have to submit everything (which is just the normal stuff) to the FAA and the FAA sends you a medical. And the FAA was way behind even before COVID, so I ended up starting said job with one of those "whoops I left my cert at home" faxes and had to hit the FAA up at Oshkosh to finally get my actual medical in hand.

If you are already under the microscope and you start doctor shopping when they tell you something that you don't want to hear, it is not likely to go well. Choose your doctors wisely.
 
Ah. That just means you don’t understand the aviation definitions of abuse, nor the aviation def of dependency ( which could be present even if abstinent for years.

Keep beating your chest. Sigh. I’m not going to “write it all out” here. Now if you had taken another approach…asking that might have been what the criteria might be….might be worth doing.

To say “you have to be delusional” actually points back to oneself.
But I wish everyone in your situation, “good luck”. ESP. with a past marijuana card. You do have an issue. It’s just not the problem you think it is.

FAA WILL force you to deal with it…or you will take the bus….:(.
 
AmIFed said:
There's a few other things that I'm planning to bring up with the doctor which a reasonable person would agree make it extremely unlikely I have any sort of drug or alcohol problem. Not expecting him to diverge from the process...
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It doesn't matter one bit what "a reasonable person would agree". The only thing that matters is how the FAA sees it and you (and the AME) have to play it by their rules or you don't get to play at all. No arguments will get them to bend even a little. It may not be "reasonable", indeed it's often downright unreasonable but unfortunately it's the way it is.
 
The letter they sent me is going to make me do a bunch of crap:

1. Meet with a HIMS AME and get random drug testing started, and meet with them quarterly
2. Meet with a therapist specializing in drug addiction 2x per week indefinitely
3. Attend AA type meetings 2x per week indefinitely
4. After 6 months of random drug testing, go to the HIMS Neuropsych for core battery tests (they want to see if my brain was melted by marijuana)
5. Go back to the HIMS Psych with neuropsych test results
6. Go back to HIMS AME with psych report

The only thing I'm really concerned about is the AA meetings, I've optimized my schedule M-F such that every minute is accounted for. I'm gonna try to convince the HIMS AME to let me not attend those or do them on the weekends. If I had to attend 2 per week during week it would put my employment in jeopardy due to time constraints.
 
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AmIFed said:
Yea well, I had a medical marijuana license about 4 years ago when I was in university. I drink 1-2 beers every 3 months. Not expecting them to take my word for it. The HIMS Psych mentioned to me he's had many people blatantly lie to him which were later caught. I understand the need to go through the drug tests. There's a few other things that I'm planning to bring up with the doctor which a reasonable person would agree make it extremely unlikely I have any sort of drug or alcohol problem. Not expecting him to diverge from the process, but if after explaining to them my situation, they were to tell me they agree with the substance abuse diagnosis, I'd be concerned with their judgement and probably just find another doctor
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The FAA does some pretty unreasonable things. Denying medicals to habitual drug users is not one of them. And that's without even considering whatever condition got you the prescription to begin with.

They're making you prove it. And like Dr. Bruce wrote, they use their own definitions.
 
AmIFed said:
The only thing I'm really concerned about is the AA meetings, I've optimized my schedule M-F such that every minute is accounted for. I'm gonna try to convince the HIMS AME to let me not attend those or do them on the weekends. If I had to attend 2 per week during week it would put my employment in jeopardy due to time constraints.
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What is your motivation for getting a medical cert? Is this career-related or for recreation? If the latter, maybe it's time to consider other hobbies. Either way, if you're not serious enough about this to jump through all the hoops placed in front of you, your chances of success are low. As others have stated, the FAA sets the rules and there's not a lot of wiggle room. Nothing in the Constitution guarantees medical/pilot certs to be a fundamental right of all citizens.
 
Jim_R said:
What is your motivation for getting a medical cert? Is this career-related or for recreation? If the latter, maybe it's time to consider other hobbies. Either way, if you're not serious enough about this to jump through all the hoops placed in front of you, your chances of success are low. As others have stated, the FAA sets the rules and there's not a lot of wiggle room. Nothing in the Constitution guarantees medical/pilot certs to be a fundamental right of all citizens.
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Ditto what Jim R said. Believes me, I know it sucks, I’m 2 years in for a deferral/denial related to SSRI and alcohol use. I’ve completed everything the FAA has asked of me, it’s now in their hands to approve SI or not.

I hope they agree with the recommendations of the AME, psychologist, neuropsychologist, but there’s no guarantee.
 
I don't know why you guys are freaking out, this is a minor inconvenience. I have all the time in the world. No interest in becoming a 3D bus driver, this is for my entertainment
 
AmIFed said:
I don't know why you guys are freaking out, this is a minor inconvenience. I have all the time in the world. No interest in becoming a 3D bus driver, this is for my entertainment
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Whether career or fun, you’re in for at least 12-18 months of waiting.
 
AmIFed said:
I don't know why you guys are freaking out, this is a minor inconvenience. I have all the time in the world. No interest in becoming a 3D bus driver, this is for my entertainment
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I don't think anyone is freaking out. Good luck getting the FAA to modify their requirements. Let us know how it goes.
 
I’m pretty sure that when you try to persuade the hims ame that u shouldnt have to go to aa meetings he will view it as evidence that u r in denial. remember, even tho u r paying him he answers to the faa.
 
wellknow said:
I’m pretty sure that when you try to persuade the hims ame that u shouldnt have to go to aa meetings he will view it as evidence that u r in denial. remember, even tho u r paying him he answers to the faa.
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He is trying to tell you where the SQUARES that you must fill, are. If you beat your chest and say, "but none of this is necessary" you will take the bus for a very long time.

And ten years from now the situation will be unchanged (if your claim of sobriety is not substantiated with Evidence)...it never goes away.
 
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AmIFed said:
I got the letter today, they just want me to meet with a HIMS AME and start that drug/alcohol testing process. At this point I'm kind of indifferent about the wait time anymore. I'm just glad to be one step closer to the finish line. I'd have to get a completely delusional HIMS AME to think I have a drug or alcohol problem
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Well considering the fact that you got sent to HIMS to begin with, I tend to think you might not be the best judge of that. They don’t just randomly pull people out of line for this sort of thing.
 
AmIFed said:
I don't know why you guys are freaking out, this is a minor inconvenience.
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Says the guy who started out with:
AmIFed said:
I feel completely ripped off! They don't care about wasting people's time or money, this is just a mindless, zombie checklist without any thinking being done.
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Believe me, none of us are freaking out. We’ve read your exact story 500 times.
 
AmIFed said:
I've got a feeling I will break the world record for HIMS process and be done in 6-7 months
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Hmmm... not likely. I'm not a betting man but I'll take that wager....I've been there, done that, and have my cert.. Concerning AA/recovery meetings...you could do two in a day on a Saturday or Sunday, it doesn't matter as long as it is two per week. There are online recovery meetings that are recognized and accepted by AeroMed. Those are fine for the small minority of HIMS path airmen that truly do not have alcohol/drug addiction. I had many, many years of very active recovery with many letters from sponsors/sponsees/ATP pilot friends attesting to my sobriety and character as well as a very supportive HIMS Psychiatric evaluation before I even met with a HIMS AME. It took 6 months from the day I first met with the HIMS AME to get issued (SI) and 18 months from my first deferral by my AME.
 
AmIFed said:
I've got a feeling I will break the world record for HIMS process and be done in 6-7 months
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My brother had a hip replacement about 4 weeks ago. The Doc said he would need several months to heal up enough to go back to work. He is an automobile mechanic.
He said, no way. He is in good health and heals up quickly. He thought he would be back to work in 2 or 3 weeks.

Today, 4 weeks later, he is saying it will be at least another month or two.

On a separate note:
We attended a "destination wedding" in Sun Valley Idaho two months ago. Every time my wife and I were introduced to someone new we were described as the couple that flew their own plane from Florida to Idaho. A lot of people were really interested and asked a lot of questions. At the evening social a group of parents with kids that had always expressed a great interest in flying got to talking about GA. Some of them brought their kids over and asked us for advice. Both my wife and I drilled into their heads how serious the FAA was regarding drugs and alcohol. I told them about POA and all the people that come on to the medical boards asking how to get their medical (or get it back) after using certain prescription and illicit drugs and/or had DUI's on their record. Most of them were very agreeable, but some tried to argue. One question that many had was why is it a problem if it is legal in their State. I spent about two minutes telling these kids to do well in school, especially STEM courses. and about an hour talking to them about drugs and alcohol and FAA medical requirements. We even talked about actually flying. After the event was over and we were all at home I received at least 5 emails from parents thanking me for talking to their kids about that.

I wish this was drilled into the heads of every kid starting in elementary school. Don't just tell kids not to do drugs because it is illegal and they might go to jail and it may ruin their health. Tell them that if they ever want to fly; Don't do drugs and don't drink and drive.
 
robin ardoin said:
Hmmm... not likely. I'm not a betting man but I'll take that wager....I've been there, done that, and have my cert.. Concerning AA/recovery meetings...you could do two in a day on a Saturday or Sunday, it doesn't matter as long as it is two per week. There are online recovery meetings that are recognized and accepted by AeroMed. Those are fine for the small minority of HIMS path airmen that truly do not have alcohol/drug addiction. I had many, many years of very active recovery with many letters from sponsors/sponsees/ATP pilot friends attesting to my sobriety and character as well as a very supportive HIMS Psychiatric evaluation before I even met with a HIMS AME. It took 6 months from the day I first met with the HIMS AME to get issued (SI) and 18 months from my first deferral by my AME.
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Yup that will be me, 6 months max. There's just literally no way the HIMS AME is gonna think I'm a drug addict unless he's trying to milk me for money. As soon as the HIMS AME submits his final report I'm gonna ask the congressperson to send a letter so it forces them to respond in 2 weeks
 
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AmIFed said:
Yea well, I had a medical marijuana license about 4 years ago when I was in university. I drink 1-2 beers every 3 months. Not expecting them to take my word for it. The HIMS Psych mentioned to me he's had many people blatantly lie to him which were later caught. I understand the need to go through the drug tests. There's a few other things that I'm planning to bring up with the doctor which a reasonable person would agree make it extremely unlikely I have any sort of drug or alcohol problem. Not expecting him to diverge from the process, but if after explaining to them my situation, they were to tell me they agree with the substance abuse diagnosis, I'd be concerned with their judgement and probably just find another doctor
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bflynn said:
Hmmm...

Do you enjoy sailing?
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Beat me to it!
 
AmIFed said:
Yup that will be me, 6 months max. There's just literally no way the HIMS AME is gonna think I'm a drug addict unless he's trying to milk me for money. As soon as the HIMS AME submits his final report I'm gonna ask the congressperson to send a letter so it forces them to respond in 2 weeks
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Your Congresscritter gets so many letters (your topic is not even in the top 10!) that the staff will just file it and deal with it sometime in the future. You'll get a letter thanking you and commenting on the number of requests and it will be a while before they can get to it, but do stay in touch. Took me 18 months and a Senator's staffer to solve a problem with the IRS. Do you really think a Class 3 pilot flying for fun is more important than an Vet with VA problems? Or a retiree with Social Security issues? You are not anywhere in the priority list.
 
AmIFed said:
Yup that will be me, 6 months max. There's just literally no way the HIMS AME is gonna think I'm a drug addict unless he's trying to milk me for money. As soon as the HIMS AME submits his final report I'm gonna ask the congressperson to send a letter so it forces them to respond in 2 weeks
Click to expand...

Good luck.
 
AmIFed said:
Yup that will be me, 6 months max. There's just literally no way the HIMS AME is gonna think I'm a drug addict unless he's trying to milk me for money. As soon as the HIMS AME submits his final report I'm gonna ask the congressperson to send a letter so it forces them to respond in 2 weeks
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And there's the problem....and he hasn't even asked for the FAA definition of abuse. Not a clue.
 
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