How often do you make mistakes?

Ted DuPuis said:
Lack of full power makes sense. Y'all have no shortage of trees and mountains.

Typically, I put the prop full forward when I've pulled the manifold pressure back enough that it comes off the governor. It's another smoothness thing, that way you don't get the jump in RPM and the big speed brake.
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That is why I like to do it on short final. Then you don't really feel the prop going to full, as opposed to doing it on pattern entry.

I do like flying smooth. My instructor is an A320 pilot and he has lots of rules of thumb for making your flight "passenger smooth". Speed changes should be 1 kt per second. I can't remember the rule for pitch and bank angle changes.
 
COFlyBoy said:
That is why I like to do it on short final. Then you don't really feel the prop going to full, as opposed to doing it on pattern entry.

I do like flying smooth. My instructor is an A320 pilot and he has lots of rules of thumb for making your flight "passenger smooth". Speed changes should be 1 kt per second. I can't remember the rule for pitch and bank angle changes.
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Every HP airplane I've flown I'm at 14-16" MAP and slowed to pattern entry speed. Prop full forward on downwind results in -- nothing.

Short final is final GUMPS check and line up time. That's it for me.
 
I can't remember a flight where I didn't make at least one mistake, only flights where I made less mistakes than average.

You just have to learn that mistakes aren't something negative. They're to be avoided, but since you'll always make mistakes, it's not worth beating yourself up over making them.

-Felix
 
dmccormack said:
Every HP airplane I've flown I'm at 14-16" MAP and slowed to pattern entry speed. Prop full forward on downwind results in -- nothing.
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You and I fly different planes, and you also may have them at higher RPM than I tend to run at. But in the planes I fly, pushing the props forward on downwind would definitely make the pattern less smooth. Short final is when I do it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
You and I fly different planes, and you also may have them at higher RPM than I tend to run at. But in the planes I fly, pushing the props forward on downwind would definitely make the pattern less smooth. Short final is when I do it.
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I don't think one IO-550/360/520 is much different than two in this regard, is it?

:dunno:

After all, at 15" or so and 100 KIAS (let's say), when I push the prop full forward there's no change in MAP or RPM.
 
skidoo said:
So, now I am a bit concerned relative to Dan's response#26.
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I wouldn't worry about that, if your mixture was an inch and a half out, you would be so lean that power would be significantly reduced as evidenced by the stumble and the anemic climb and you were likely to be far from detonation. Pushing the mixture in and the immediate increase in power also confirms this.
 
dmccormack said:
I don't think one IO-550/360/520 is much different than two in this regard, is it?

:dunno:

After all, at 15" or so and 100 KIAS (let's say), when I push the prop full forward there's no change in MAP or RPM.
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At first I thought you were talking about the Chief, but at 100 KIAS I guess not.

Maybe this is one of those "Driver doesn't feel the change" things. There is definitely a deceleration if I am straight and level at 100 KIAS, 17 MAP, 2300 RPM when I push the prop to full (2700). You lose a bunch of thrust waiting for the prop to speed back up. Its not scary, but it is noticeable. On short final at 80 KIAS, with <5 MAP, you can't feel the prop change at all since its not really providing any thrust anyway.
 
Dan, you're saying you're not getting any change in MP or RPM when you push the prop forward, which is what you want. COFlyBoy and I both see RPM going up and MP going down at that point, which is the speed brake effect. So, there's something about the speeds and/or planes that are different.

What I was saying was not regarding the 520/550 (you're right it should all be pretty similar engine to engine), it's regarding the airframe. If I was running 15" on downwind in the Aztec, it would be uncomfortably slow once I put the flaps and gear out. My pattern manifold pressure is 18", that gets me slow enough to put the flaps and gear down, and then start pulling back further once I turn my base and then final. By short final I've got the power back enough that the engines are no longer on the governors and that's when I push the props forward.

Note that on the GTSIO-520s, I've been told by some trusted sources that they normally don't touch the props until they're on the ground, as those engines are not tolerant to windmilling. I just don't like hearing the RPM go up.
 
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Ghery said:
True. I'm sure very true. I haven't tried with a 145 hp C-172H with 40 degrees, either. Not planning on the experiment.
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I did a bit of instruction in one of those. That thing barely took off with no flaps, and sunk like a rock with 40 degree flaps. Trying to take off with 40 degree flaps? Yikes.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Dan, you're saying you're not getting any change in MP or RPM when you push the prop forward, which is what you want. COFlyBoy and I both see RPM going up and MP going down at that point, which is the speed brake effect. So, there's something about the speeds and/or planes that are different.
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Right -- and I don't have the speed brake effect below 100 KIAS in an A36 and 100 MPH in the C205. Though I usually target 90 KIAS pattern entry speed in the Bo and 90 MPH in the 205.


Ted DuPuis said:
What I was saying was not regarding the 520/550 (you're right it should all be pretty similar engine to engine), it's regarding the airframe. If I was running 15" on downwind in the Aztec, it would be uncomfortably slow once I put the flaps and gear out. My pattern manifold pressure is 18", that gets me slow enough to put the flaps and gear down, and then start pulling back further once I turn my base and then final. By short final I've got the power back enough that the engines are no longer on the governors and that's when I push the props forward.
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Of course I could be at 14" MAP and 180 knots ... :D

So it's really about airspeed management. I slow it down before entering the pattern or reaching FAF (unless asked to keep the speed up). Once I'm established at my pattern speed, I push prop full forward slowly and maintain attitude. Once abeam the numbers (when flying pattern) the flaps and gear come down (unless I used the gear to descend from far out -- which happens sometimes when arriving from the east IFR here, since we have 2000' AGL mins just east of here. CLE Ctr keeps me at 5k -- the airports I fly into are all ~1200' MSL).

It's the same drill at the FAF on an ILS -- gear plus flaps at 90 = ~450 FPM descent. And inch of two either way will adjust descent rate according to wind conditions.

Anyway, I have the habit of prop full forward once I'm slow enough to begin the landing sequence. I know it's not really eseential way out here since the only reason I need it full forward is in case of a go around.

But it's one of those things that is likley forgotten just at the wrong time, hasn't hurt much, and is done smoothly and is un-noticed by passengers.

I really don't like hearing folks zoom into the pattern and do a sudden RPM change (you've heard it, too I'm sure if you're at any busy GA airport on a nice Saturday). Is it "wrong"? No -- but I like engines too much to enjoy hearing or seeing them mis-treated.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I did a bit of instruction in one of those. That thing barely took off with no flaps, and sunk like a rock with 40 degree flaps. Trying to take off with 40 degree flaps? Yikes.
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Yep. Two up in a 145 hp C172 and you sorta roll along and wonder "OK, are we gonna take off?"

Helped prepare me for the Chief.

:D
 
dmccormack said:
Right -- and I don't have the speed brake effect below 100 KIAS in an A36 and 100 MPH in the C205. Though I usually target 90 KIAS pattern entry speed in the Bo and 90 MPH in the 205.
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In the Mooney I wanted to come in around 120 mph IAS. Gear and flaps were 120-125 mph, so that gave me the speed I wanted there. I'd generally fly the rest of the pattern around 100-110 mph, pulling back on final.

So it's really about airspeed management. I slow it down before entering the pattern or reaching FAF (unless asked to keep the speed up). Once I'm established at my pattern speed, I push prop full forward slowly and maintain attitude. Once abeam the numbers (when flying pattern) the flaps and gear come down (unless I used the gear to descend from far out -- which happens sometimes when arriving from the east IFR here, since we have 2000' AGL mins just east of here. CLE Ctr keeps me at 5k -- the airports I fly into are all ~1200' MSL).

It's the same drill at the FAF on an ILS -- gear plus flaps at 90 = ~450 FPM descent. And inch of two either way will adjust descent rate according to wind conditions.

Anyway, I have the habit of prop full forward once I'm slow enough to begin the landing sequence. I know it's not really eseential way out here since the only reason I need it full forward is in case of a go around.

But it's one of those things that is likley forgotten just at the wrong time, hasn't hurt much, and is done smoothly and is un-noticed by passengers.
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Right, if you're getting slow enough and low enough power that you're off the governor, it won't be noticed by passengers, and that's fine. As for forgetting, in most of the planes it's really not a big problem. If sounds like you fly your patterns slower than I do. In the planes that I fly (well, these days "plane" singular), Vyse is 100 mph, so I don't want to get below that until I'm on final. Plus the controls start getting sloppy when it gets slower, it's just not as comfortable. Unless I need to go slowly for some reason, there's just not a good reason to. Plus to go that slow I either need to pull the power way back or put the flaps to full, which makes for a really draggy airframe and requires more power through the pattern. Once again, uncomfortable. Oh, and if I lose an engine with full flaps and gear down I will be unable to maintain altitude (tried it).

Comes down to flying your plane how it made sense to fly it and with what's comfortable. In the Mooney and Aztec, I was more comfortable with the extra speed. I've never flown a Bonanza. One day...

I really don't like hearing folks zoom into the pattern and do a sudden RPM change (you've heard it, too I'm sure if you're at any busy GA airport on a nice Saturday). Is it "wrong"? No -- but I like engines too much to enjoy hearing or seeing them mis-treated.
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That's pretty much how I view any sudden changes with regards to throttle, prop, or mixture - I don't like them. Smooth is the key. Whether or not it actually is mistreating the engines can be debated (I avoid such debates entirely), but I don't care if it does or not - it's just a nicer flying experience to do them slowly. Let's take my flight to Canada on Friday - I made my RPM adjustments simultaneously on both props, taking probably 5 seconds to go from 2500 RPM to 2300 RPM. Did I need to go that slowly? Of course not. However the passengers didn't even notice as far as I could tell, and plus I kept both props in perfect sync during the transition. Nice.
 
As a new pilot I often mentally review my flights and make a mental list of all the mistakes and things I could have done better. Its good mental review even when I'm driving my car. At this point its things like: forgetting to turn landing lights on or off, Leaving the tower on after I land and am supposed to be talking to ground. Forgetting to set my timer when I fly cross countries. Check list help me alot.
 
dmccormack said:
Every HP airplane I've flown I'm at 14-16" MAP and slowed to pattern entry speed. Prop full forward on downwind results in -- nothing.
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The 182 (O-470) will go to full (2600) RPM at 14" MP. I generally cruise around 2200-2300 RPM and full throttle, pull back to around 20" MP to start slowing down, 16" MP to get back to pattern speed, and to begin the descent abeam the numbers I go to 12" MP or so, which pulls the prop out of the governing range and back to about 2000 RPM, at which point the blue knob goes in.

I keep the 12"/2000 all the way down, add flaps when turning base and final to give me some extra lift in the turns. I fly downwind at 100mph, and the added flaps gives me a perfect 80mph on final with no additional power changes until I bring the throttle to idle when beginning the roundout.
 
I've never leaned on the ground or (in general) under 3,000 feet so I haven't made THAT mistake; yet.
I have made my share, though. One flight left me stranded at an airport 50 miles from where I took off from, on a holiday weekend, a little used airstrip, on an island. After some calling around (confessions to the FBO that rented me the plane), we found a local mechanic to give me a jump. Since the plane checked out okay, I'm convinced I'd left the alternator off.
Strange plane, different checklist than I was used to, no cross checking, interrupted.
I've learned to restart the checklist from the top!
 
Ghery said:
Ever wondered how well a C-172N (180 hp Pen Yann conversion) climbs with 30 degrees of flaps hanging out on take-off? I don't anymore. And, yes, the checklist did say to raise them earlier in the process. BTW, it does take off and climb, just not very fast.
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Teacher, teacher I know the answer to this one! Not too good. Learned this as a student doing touch and gos. Oops, no one told me students were not allowed to do touch and gos.

I make a mistake every flight. Fortunately none too major. Learn from each one and have not made the same one twice. There do seem to be a lot of mistakes to make once however. I have a few more to work through.

I recently flew down to Winston Salem VFR from central PA. Decided to thread the needle between P-50 and the DC SFRA. Granted the needle was pretty big since Obama and the Missus were not at Camp David. However, the spectre of a fighter escort haunted me for the couple of days leading up to the flight. I programmed both GPSs and had the VOR all set up. Checked the sectional about 10 times. Made a couple of calls to FSS to check Notams. On the flight down I had one eye on the GX60, one on the 396, one on the VOR, and my other two eyes outside the plane looking at the ground. All was well and the flight home was done with a little less drama.
 
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John Collins said:
I wouldn't worry about that, if your mixture was an inch and a half out, you would be so lean that power would be significantly reduced as evidenced by the stumble and the anemic climb and you were likely to be far from detonation. Pushing the mixture in and the immediate increase in power also confirms this.
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He would be far away from detonation most likely no matter where the mixture was. It's virtually impossible to cause detonation in most piston engines.

Anyways, I wouldn't worry about it either. It's really a good practice to lean as much as possible on the ground - unless you like wasting fuel and fouling your spark plugs, of course.

-Felix
 
I flew about 2 hours last night and made 2 mistakes that I noticed. I probably made some I didn't. It happens.
 
And Jesse is the world's greatest pilot, so if he makes mistakes, we're all pretty much doomed to.
 
HOW OFTEN DO YOU MAKE MISTAKES

I have yet to perform the perfect flight.

But that still remains the goal and it is still something worth trying for.

All the airline pilots I know as friends worth flying behind seem to have the same problem.

When "you" do your first perfect flight, please let us know.
 
For the recrd, I nevr maked any mistaks, flying or oterwise. Ever.

:rofl:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The 182 (O-470) will go to full (2600) RPM at 14" MP. I generally cruise around 2200-2300 RPM and full throttle, pull back to around 20" MP to start slowing down, 16" MP to get back to pattern speed, and to begin the descent abeam the numbers I go to 12" MP or so, which pulls the prop out of the governing range and back to about 2000 RPM, at which point the blue knob goes in.

I keep the 12"/2000 all the way down, add flaps when turning base and final to give me some extra lift in the turns. I fly downwind at 100mph, and the added flaps gives me a perfect 80mph on final with no additional power changes until I bring the throttle to idle when beginning the roundout.
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Interesting. I fly basically the same airplane and I do things slightly differently. I don't want to hijack the thread, so remind me to talk to you about this sometime...I could be about to enhance my flying knowledge WRT this airplane by drawing on your vast experience in the 182. I better go fly right away to try some stuff. :)
 
billwil said:
Interesting. I fly basically the same airplane and I do things slightly differently. I don't want to hijack the thread, so remind me to talk to you about this sometime...I could be about to enhance my flying knowledge WRT this airplane by drawing on your vast experience in the 182. I better go fly right away to try some stuff. :)
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There is more then one way to land an airplane.
 
jesse said:
There is more then one way to land an airplane.
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This I know...which is why I want to see if it makes sense to update my own procedures based on the experience of someone with far more hours in this airplane than me. There is more than one way to gain experience, too, is there not? :smile:
 
I made a mistake Monday.

I decided to fly around and see if I could get over the haze layer. Still in haze at 4k, so back down I went.

I was a bit high on final so did the usual slip.

I slipped it hard, was checking where I was relative to the trees, then noticed it was Really Quiet.

As I pushed the nose forward saw the ASI was on 50 MPH. :yikes:

Yeah -- a bit too slow for my peace of mind.

I pushed the nose down, got back up to 60, and kept the slip in. First landing was ok -- a bit too fast on short final.

Next one was fantabulous -- 3 pointer with the ASI bouncing below 40 MPH once in Ground Effect. Oh my that was sweeeet.

:D
 
Ghery said:
True. I'm sure very true. I haven't tried with a 145 hp C-172H with 40 degrees, either. Not planning on the experiment.
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:rofl: I could just see myself sitting there full power and not going anywhere!!

Ted DuPuis said:
I did a bit of instruction in one of those. That thing barely took off with no flaps, and sunk like a rock with 40 degree flaps. Trying to take off with 40 degree flaps? Yikes.
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Yea,.. welcome to my world in the summer. 28-30 Gallons and two adults,... 400 feet per minute is all she'll give ya after 1500-1600 ft rollout to rotation point. This past winter, I could get 800 feet/min at full tanks (36 gallons) and my dad and kids, about 80lbs below gross. Definitely have to adjust your planning and know the airplane's conditional limitations.
 
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Rob Schaffer said:
Yea,.. welcome to my world in the summer. 28-30 Gallons and two adults,... 400 feet per minute is all she'll give ya after 1500-1600 ft rollout to rotation point. This past winter, I could get 800 feet/min at full tanks (36 gallons) and my dad and kids, about 80lbs below gross. Definitely have to adjust your planning and know the airplane's conditional limitations.
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400 FPM!!!

That's about double what I saw this weekend with me and a passenger at 75 F and about 80% RH.

I don't have a VSI so I use the hill to the south as a guide -- once I'm even with the top, I turn crosswind and then downwind.
 
Rob Schaffer said:
Yea,.. welcome to my world in the summer. 28-30 Gallons and two adults,... 400 feet per minute is all she'll give ya after 1500-1600 ft rollout to rotation point. This past winter, I could get 800 feet/min at full tanks (36 gallons) and my dad and kids, about 80lbs below gross. Definitely have to adjust your planning and know the airplane's conditional limitations.
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A 180 hp 172 works well. The anemic O-300? Yeah, no fun. The angle of climb isn't so bad, I found, but the problem is that you can easily get into 400 fpm downdrafts. I did my private in a 180 hp 172, that can actually be pretty fun.

Solution: MORE BOOST! :yesnod:
 
Rob Schaffer said:
Yea,.. welcome to my world in the summer. 28-30 Gallons and two adults,... 400 feet per minute is all she'll give ya...
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But that's 33% better than a 150 under the same conditions...:D

Some of the early 172s have options for climb props, not sure if your H model does, though.
 
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