How not to respond to IMC

Glad he recovered.

It sure sounded like he lost it mentally, spatially, and aerodynamically.

Kudo's to Cessna.
 
Squawking 1200, so he was VFR into IMC. The panic leads me to believe he is not instrument rated, though it is important to realize that VFR into IMC is also deadly for IR pilots.

This audio should be required listening for every student pilot. It is also a good reminder to IR pilots why their CFII recommended that they fly IFR even on CAVU days, if for no other reason than to remain IFR proficient so that when, not if, unexpected IMC is encountered and such encounters are no more eventful than a normal landing.
 
So you almost lose your life to inadvertent IMC and then go and file the same day for another flight? Can't say he isn't determined.
 
Seriously? If you are gonna panic and scream like a little girl, do it in the bar after you land! :lol:
 
I'm guessing there was some poor flight planning prior to this? That first panicked call seemed to occur after he had already entered IMC. Is it common to encounter unavoidable IMC even with proper planning?
 
Definitely determined. I was scared ****less after accidentally entering the pattern wrong at an unfamiliar airport on my first long cross country, I can't imagine being totally disoriented and panicked alone in IMC, nearly dying, and want to get in the plane again that day.

The absolute seriousness and hopelessness in his voice when he talks about rolling over gives me shivers, that's a great deterrent and mental reminder why not to fly into IMC without currency and an IR ticket.

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Welcome to POA hazelmurphy! :)

I'm guessing he was already in the air and it crept up on him (clear -> haze -> clouds) but I'm not sure.
 
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hazelmurphy said:
I'm guessing there was some poor flight planning prior to this? That first panicked call seemed to occur after he had already entered IMC. Is it common to encounter unavoidable IMC even with proper planning?
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Yes, but you have to really screw up and try hard to do it. :rofl:

He must have been trying to get somewhere. Getthereitiss is a recurring disease that needs to be avoided at all cost.


Welcome to POA!
 
Thanks, guys!

I haven't started training yet (Still trying to find the right school) for my PPL but I'm glad I listened to this. If anything I want to understand what he did wrong to end up in that situation so I can avoid making the same mistakes myself.
 
hazelmurphy said:
Thanks, guys!

I haven't started training yet (Still trying to find the right school) for my PPL but I'm glad I listened to this. If anything I want to understand what he did wrong to end up in that situation so I can avoid making the same mistakes myself.
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He forgot the number one rule of flying....

I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in there air wishing I was on the ground.


Your training will cover going into IMC and what to do to get out of it. It is really no big deal if you have just a little training. Basically, do a 180 standard rate turn and watch the instruments. If you don't have instruments (or the training) that can tell you with way the dirt is start screaming like a little girl and kiss your ass good by. :rofl: ;)
 
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In the just under 100 hours in my logbook I only found a surprise on IMC once, and it was wind and dust in the high desert of CA that caused it, not clouds. Within an hour jaunt back and forth to another airport, it kicked up pretty badly. The worst part was the wind was out of an unusual direction, which ended up causing my instructor and I to have to push for short final on the reciprocal of a runway we only practiced on once in a while. It was hairy but we got down in time. Planning prevented it on every other flight.
 
hazelmurphy said:
Is it common to encounter unavoidable IMC even with proper planning?
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The direct answer to your question is "No", because if you had done your "proper planning", you already know where any IMC conditions are going to exist. So it's all avoidable.

There are many weather products out there to determine if "unavoidable IMC" exists. Heck, even using The Weather Channel website (www.weather.com) can be enough to tell a VFR only pilot that it's not advisable to fly.

Even if you take off in beautiful calm VMC conditions, you will see any IMC stuff well, well before you get into the thick of it and can avoid it.

Your instructor should be equipping you with the basics of what to do if you get caught in IMC conditions. The basics are to remain calm, don't panic, trust your instruments, and do what's needed to extricate yourself from IMC and avoid obstacles (Hint: Look at the center of the squares on your VFR Chart, then stay at an altitude higher than the big number you find there).
 
Can't remember where I read it, but it said most VFR pilots who think they can handle inadvertent IMC, lose it after about ten minutes in the soup.

Microsoft FX is nothing like the real thang.

However, I'm a big fan of synthetic vision. I think it could help GA's accident record when and if all planes have it.
 
AggieMike88 said:
The direct answer to your question is "No", because if you had done your "proper planning", you already know where any IMC conditions are going to exist. So it's all avoidable.

There are many weather products out there to determine if "unavoidable IMC" exists. Heck, even using The Weather Channel website (www.weather.com) can be enough to tell a VFR only pilot that it's not advisable to fly.

Even if you take off in beautiful calm VMC conditions, you will see any IMC stuff well, well before you get into the thick of it and can avoid it.

Your instructor should be equipping you with the basics of what to do if you get caught in IMC conditions. The basics are to remain calm, don't panic, trust your instruments, and do what's needed to extricate yourself from IMC and avoid obstacles (Hint: Look at the center of the squares on your VFR Chart, then stay at an altitude higher than the big number you find there).
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You obviously don't fly near the Great Lakes. I have seen it deteriorate more times than I can remember, and not even be remotely close to the forecasts.

And when it closes in behind you first, and you go to make the 180 when it looks no good in front of you - you're hosed. Oh, they were only off on the cloud cover by 50% and 6,000' off on the bases. No problem. :rolleyes:
 
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EdFred said:
You obviously don't fly near the Great Lakes. I have seen it deteriorate more times than I can remember, and not even be remotely close to the forecasts.

And when it closes in behind you first, and you go to make the 180 when it looks no good in front of you - you're hosed. Oh, they were only off on the cloud cover by 50% and 6,000' off on the bases. No problem. :rolleyes:
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Having lived in the very easygoing weather style of the High Desert in CA, I thought I was a weather "expert". I moved to Oklahoma just over a year ago, and let me say...

f0b9b6f48a576cd960dc47d983044516f17b397b87448bdadc133b1315092175.jpg
 
EdFred said:
You obviously don't fly near the Great Lakes. I have seen it deteriorate more times than I can remember, and not even be remotely close to the forecasts.

And when it closes in behind you first, and you go to make the 180 when it looks no good in front of you - you're hosed. Oh, they were only off on the cloud cover by 50% and 6,000' off on the bases. No problem. :rolleyes:
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When you say Great Lakes do you mean all of them or..... :)

I live in Richmond, VA right now but am moving back to Cleveland next year, so I'm probably going to end up doing most of my training out of 15G, but starting at FCI down here.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
overdrive148 said:
Having lived in the very easygoing weather style of the High Desert in CA, I thought I was a weather "expert". I moved to Oklahoma just over a year ago, and let me say...

f0b9b6f48a576cd960dc47d983044516f17b397b87448bdadc133b1315092175.jpg
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Best post of the day
 
Shows the importance of being proficient in making a 180 turn under the hood.
 
Breaking news from Washington...

"The FAA announced today that with the improvements in technology, they have decided to add an additional "C" to existing memonic that aids pilots in remembering what to do when they are lost. Pilots were taught Confess, Climb, Circle, and Communicate.

"We have added CASH to this memory aid," said an FAA spokesperson. "This will remind pilots to spend for either a better panel mounted GPS or additional iPads."​
 
AggieMike88 said:
...link..
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The point was, there are times that no matter what sort of preflight prep you do in trying to avoid IMC conditions, sometimes the weather guys **** up. So no, the answer is not a simple straightforward "no."
 
overdrive148 said:
Was looking on youtube for more on the impossible turn and found this. Cringeworthy at the start. Glad the guy made it out okay at least.
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I am not so hard on the guy, myself. He tried to execute a turn in inadvertent IMC and entered a spin. He had no idea how to recover and freaked out a bit. Yet he followed the instructions to break the stall/spin and was OK once he started to level out even though still in IMC. And he flew again later that same day. Obviously, he should not have entered IMC but I wonder how many non-instrument rated pilots would have done even as well as him. Present company excluded, of course.
 
I doubt he spun, he might have spun his inner ear. Screaming mayday 20 times like a little girl isn't to be commended. Calming down because there is some guy on the radio sheesh also not to be commended. Glad it worked for him but it was appalling behavior. If he couldn't figure out how to call approach while remaining unspun in da head, he should have kept his mouth shut and died like a man. Joking, maybe.
alfadog said:
I am not so hard on the guy, myself. He tried to execute a turn in inadvertent IMC and entered a spin. He had no idea how to recover and freaked out a bit. Yet he followed the instructions to break the stall/spin and was OK once he started to level out even though still in IMC. And he flew again later that same day. Obviously, he should not have entered IMC but I wonder how many non-instrument rated pilots would have done even as well as him. Present company excluded, of course.
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I would probably not panic -as- much, maybe call up ATC and advise them that I may or may not have just flown into clouds. Execute a standard rate 180 while keeping level relying on instruments and then seeing what happens from there. Thursday monday quarterbackin' though
 
ClimbnSink said:
I doubt he spun, he might have spun his inner ear. Screaming mayday 20 times like a little girl isn't to be commended. Calming down because there is some guy on the radio sheesh also not to be commended. Glad it worked for him but it was appalling behavior. If he couldn't figure out how to call approach while remaining unspun in da head, he should have kept his mouth shut and died like a man. Joking, maybe.
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He was rolling and said his gyro was tumbling and the stall horn was blaring. If that ain't an incipient spin then I do not know what is. He was in trouble and thought he was going to die and came seriously close. I give him some slack. I think his behavior was far from appalling; the only appalling part being flying into IMC.
 
overdrive148 said:
I would probably not panic -as- much, maybe call up ATC and advise them that I may or may not have just flown into clouds. Execute a standard rate 180 while keeping level relying on instruments and then seeing what happens from there. Thursday monday quarterbackin' though
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Did you miss that he was rolling and said his gyro was tumbling and the stall horn was blaring?
 
What would lead to his not trusting the instruments? Is it that disorienting that without enough practice you are unable to maintain straight and level/a slow turn using only instruments?

I guess I need to experience IMC with a view out the front for myself (not today, even though it'd be perfect right now).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
alfadog said:
Did you miss that he was rolling and said his gyro was tumbling and the stall horn was blaring?
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If you need someone to tell you let the airplane recover you are pathetic. Screeching mayday more then three times also pathetic.
 
ClimbnSink said:
If you need someone to tell you let the airplane recover you are pathetic. Screeching mayday more then three times also pathetic.
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I dunno why your judging this guy like you can score his near death experience.

I'm sure you'd score a perfect 10 on an emergency situation. But I'd rather be scored a 2 and live then a 10 and die like a man.
 
I'm curious why the guy would key the mic in such a situation. Like screaming into the radio is going to help?

The one or two times I thought I was in aerodynamic trouble, or engine trouble, the radio was the last thing on my mind. I was too busy.

I never said anything, ATC never knew anything. I cleared the problem up, cleaned out my pants, and went on my way in silent shame. :confused:
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I dunno why your judging this guy like you can score his near death experience.

I'm sure you'd score a perfect 10 on an emergency situation. But I'd rather be scored a 2 and live then a 10 and die like a man.
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We can score it, he failed as a man and as a pilot. We trash dead pilots here all the time why are people upset with trashing live ones that deserved to die?
 
ClimbnSink said:
We can score it, he failed as a man and as a pilot. We trash dead pilots here all the time why are people upset with trashing live ones that deserved to die?
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Man thats not a good outlook to have. But if thats how you truly feel then okay.
 
txflyer said:
I'm curious why the guy would key the mic in such a situation. Like screaming into the radio is going to help?

The one or two times I thought I was in aerodynamic trouble, or engine trouble, the radio was the last thing on my mind. I was too busy.

I never said anything, ATC never knew anything. I cleared the problem up, cleaned out my pants, and went on my way in silent shame. :confused:
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Keying the mic saved his life so it was probably a good thing despite what the Tough Guys might say.
 
alfadog said:
Keying the mic saved his life so it was probably a good thing despite what the Tough Guys might say.
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Calmly counting to ten would have done the same thing only without the life of shame.:lol:
 
It's been a few days since I watched it (at work about to head home). I didn't quite buy his story at the end iirc though, not all of it jelled together imo.

If the gyro flipped, I probably wouldn't be nearly as calm short of panicking.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate - I'd probably try to stick more to the pattern though. Regardless he's alive today and that's what counts.

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Also, I remember watching it for the first time and mentally sitting in the left seat when the controller said to push forward, let go, then pull back and thought that it was a bit fast before he keyed up again for that all to have worked so suddenly. Never done spin training though. Anyone elaborate?
 
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overdrive148 said:
It's been a few days since I watched it (at work about to head home). I didn't quite buy his story at the end iirc though, not all of it jelled together imo.

If the gyro flipped, I probably wouldn't be nearly as calm short of panicking.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate - I'd probably try to stick more to the pattern though. Regardless he's alive today and that's what counts.

//edit
Also, I remember watching it for the first time and mentally sitting in the left seat when the controller said to push forward, let go, then pull back and thought that it was a bit fast before he keyed up again for that all to have worked so suddenly. Never done spin training though. Anyone elaborate?
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I agree, it did end suddenly. Possibly the audio was edited though. I didn't make out any audio of the stall horn blaring either but with him yelling it's hard to tell.
 
I caught myself vfr in imc once. but it was a non-event (still made me a tad nervous)
Was returning to JZP from SSI on FF at 7500'. I'd just passed LZU and noticed that it was getting hazy, Called up ATC told 'em that I would be descending to maintane VFR. By the time I finished the transmission forward vis was zero. I kept the needle centered, the ball centered, and allowed my airspeed to increase a few knots, untill
I came through at about 6000' went on down to 5500 and continued to my destination. I could have gone either up or down about 1500' I elected to go down, as I didn't want to get stuck on top with no hole to get through later.
 
hazelmurphy said:
What would lead to his not trusting the instruments? Is it that disorienting that without enough practice you are unable to maintain straight and level/a slow turn using only instruments?
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It's pretty disorienting. Your inner ear is constantly lying to you, telling you you're straight and level when you're not, or in a turn when you're straight and level. I don't think it's particularly difficult to maintain straight and level on instruments, but it does take a bit of practice, and a bit more to maintain control in IMC during turns, climbs, etc. It's not rocket science though, and I think any competent private pilot can learn to do it well enough to not kill themselves on inadvertently entering IMC. I suspect that many do so without any formal training beyond the required 3 hours. Learning to fly IFR is a whole other ball game, and much more than you need to be able to survive an unintentional IMC encounter.

Panic is your worst enemy, as I think this clip serves as exhibit one. I don't think "90 seconds to live" is a particularly helpful idea to pound into VFR pilots' heads. Once this pilot got past the panic, he was able to keep control of the airplane. So no, Greg, I disagree strongly that this guy "failed" as a pilot, and the stuff about not being a "man"... sheesh, the guy was beyond scared and yet he managed to keep it together and not kill himself. I'd be a little more critical of him for going right back out the same day, but then again, we don't know that the conditions hadn't improved in the meantime. If they did, I'll give him 10 points for getting right back on the horse.

(If not, he's a candidate for the Darwin award, but I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt.)
 
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