How much total time is too much?

Jack C-137

Jack C-137

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Jack C-137
So I'm starting to seriously to shop for an airplane. I see a lot of planes with low time overhauled or remanufactured engines but high total airframe time.

At what point is a plane just "flown out" regardless of how well it's been treated or overhauled? I'm looking at cessnas and Piper pa-28s (the usual suspects). I would hate to buy an Arrow with dual GTN 750s and a G600 and the wings fall off on the first landing because it also has 15,000 hrs TT.
 
It all boils down to how well it’s been maintained. One of our aircraft at the flight school has over 8k TTAF and it’s still in good shape.

If you find something that has 15k hours on it, there’s a good chance that it was used as a trainer in its past life, so keep that in mind for what it’s worth. IMO the airframe isn’t much of an issue but rather the parts that are fastened onto it. Get a good prebuy in any case.
 
Jack C-137 said:
So I'm starting to seriously to shop for an airplane. I see a lot of planes with low time overhauled or remanufactured engines but high total airframe time.

At what point is a plane just "flown out" regardless of how well it's been treated or overhauled? I'm looking at cessnas and Piper pa-28s (the usual suspects). I would hate to buy an Arrow with dual GTN 750s and a G600 and the wings fall off on the first landing because it also has 15,000 hrs TT.
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Whelp, I've seen a very well loved Arrow "Patches" that had something like 16K hours on it and was still going strong on a mail run about a decade ago. Lots of Night XC time with probably not as many landings as a flight school bird. Maintenance is key as stated by RyanB
 
Why would you look at 15,000 hour Cessnas and Pipers?
When it is time to resell nobody will want them....
I have a 1973 Cessna 172 and a 1947 Cessna 140. Both have under 3000 hours TT.
Maybe its just me but I would not waste my time looking at 15,000 hour stuff. There are lots of good low time planes for sale. When you see a good one priced right you have to jump on it because they sell.
 
I think the comfort zone is between 4,000 and 5,000.

Should be some good aircraft in that range, and resale value won't suffer when it's time to move to something else.
 
Jack C-137 said:
So I'm starting to seriously to shop for an airplane. I see a lot of planes with low time overhauled or remanufactured engines but high total airframe time.

At what point is a plane just "flown out" regardless of how well it's been treated or overhauled? I'm looking at cessnas and Piper pa-28s (the usual suspects). I would hate to buy an Arrow with dual GTN 750s and a G600 and the wings fall off on the first landing because it also has 15,000 hrs TT.
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Need more info, what models are you looking at.

I view a 207 with 9k TT differently than a PA28 with 9k
 
Doesn’t Piper have a hard time on the wing? Many airplanes require at least a spar cap mod at x hours.
 
Answer is, It depends on a lot fo things.

I flew this 172. I left it for the owner to roll it over 10K. Great airplane very well maintained. I have flown in a C47 that has over 64K hours on it and still going strong.

20141011_153037_zpsfd577ae9.jpg
 
I would look more closely at the condition of the airframe... i.e smoking rivets. Younger airframes of course can be plagued by this as well, but it is largely a symptom of older airframes. If there's no evidence of this then I'd say not to worry about it!
 
On the other side of the spectrum an Airplane that was made in the 60's with 1100 Hours total time is VERY suspect.
 
FloridaPilot said:
On the other side of the spectrum an Airplane that was made in the 60's with 1100 Hours total time is VERY suspect.
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Suspect of what? It certainly isn’t suspect of being worn out in the same sense that a 15,000 hour airplane might be.
 
mondtster said:
Suspect of what? It certainly isn’t suspect of being worn out in the same sense that a 15,000 hour airplane might be.
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Corrosion, both engine and airframe.

Of course it all depends on how and where the airplane was stored when it wasn't accumulating those 1100 hours. but yes, I would want a thorough pre-buy.

-Skip
 
tawood said:
Personally, I would suspect its had neglect...an airplane that is left sitting for a long time is another way to be neglected.
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Absolutely, however I consider any old airplane, regardless of hours, to be in that category. If you can't find something that needs fixing on an airplane, you aren't looking hard enough. ;)
 
Skip Miller said:
Corrosion, both engine and airframe.

Of course it all depends on how and where the airplane was stored when it wasn't accumulating those 1100 hours. but yes, I would want a thorough pre-buy.

-Skip
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You can have the same corrosion in a high time plane too. I just did an inspection on an airplane with 8000 hours on it and found corrosion significant enough that it is unairworthy.

At this point in time, with the GA fleet being as old as it is, you had better get a good prebuy regardless of how many hours are on the plane or how nice it looks.
 
mondtster said:
Suspect of what? It certainly isn’t suspect of being worn out in the same sense that a 15,000 hour airplane might be.
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That is true but like others mentioned the airplane could be sitting outside in the Florida Sun for years and when they decided to sell they paint the darn thing so it looks nice on the outside. Corrosion is a big problem here in Florida, even if the airplane has been in a hangar.
 
mondtster said:
You can have the same corrosion in a high time plane too. I just did an inspection on an airplane with 8000 hours on it and found corrosion significant enough that it is unairworthy.

At this point in time, with the GA fleet being as old as it is, you had better get a good prebuy regardless of how many hours are on the plane or how nice it looks.
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Exactly! You can find corrosion in ANY airplane but back to our theory with the 1960 Airplane. The airplane is 58 years old and didn't get an overhaul it has 1100 hours on it on average the airplane has flown 19 hours a year. That is not a lot of time to get oil through the engine. As a newbie I'm learning how to look out for these things.
 
So to answer OP’s question, high total time in and of itself doesn’t make a plane unairworthy. It is a data point that may help you negotiate a lower price, but the important thing is a good pre buy. Higher TT will make it harder to sell later, but you can find some that weren’t best up in flight schools.

My airplane has high total time but was owned by the FBI and run at low power for surveillance most of its life. The whole thing was basically rebuilt at one point in the mid 00’s, so I would say it’s in great shape considering the time on the airframe. It will definitely be harder to sell when that time comes, but I got a good price, which will make it easier for me to sell for a lower price than other similar models.
 
If they have to put casters on the wingtips so they don't drag on the ground, you might want to walk away.
aggie06 has something good to share. Also do your research. Many ga planes have "expiration dates" on their airframes.
 
aggie06 said:
So to answer OP’s question, high total time in and of itself doesn’t make a plane unairworthy. It is a data point that may help you negotiate a lower price, but the important thing is a good pre buy. Higher TT will make it harder to sell later, but you can find some that weren’t best up in flight schools.

My airplane has high total time but was owned by the FBI and run at low power for surveillance most of its life. The whole thing was basically rebuilt at one point in the mid 00’s, so I would say it’s in great shape considering the time on the airframe. It will definitely be harder to sell when that time comes, but I got a good price, which will make it easier for me to sell for a lower price than other similar models.
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Our 182RG was an FBI airplane also. 7K total time, but at 4.5K had a military-grade R&R. We're quite happy with it. That said, to echo others....do your research/pre-buy.

Jim
 
Something else to consider is getting a copy of the maintenance books on what you are interested in. Cruise thru the books and look carefully at the time/age service requirements. High time airframes can be approaching some heavy maintenance items that you may not want to have to deal with, or drop the $'s to do.
 
I’ve worked a B727-100 that had 100,000 cycles and well over 100,000 hours. Gulf streams are pretty much done at 25,000 cycles (so much for their quality). I would prefer a newer airframe with high time over a older one. Corrosion would be a concern for a really old airframe.
Some airplanes do have limited life spans, especially the wings. If there is a fix it’s usually not worth the cost.
I would pass on a airframe with 10,000 hours unless it was free and I wanted the engine, avionics.
 
Some aircraft models have life-limited parts, e.g. the Grumman AA5X series has 12,000-12,500 hour limits on various wing spar assemblies. Something to be aware of.
 
Jack C-137 said:
So I'm starting to seriously to shop for an airplane. I see a lot of planes with low time overhauled or remanufactured engines but high total airframe time.

At what point is a plane just "flown out" regardless of how well it's been treated or overhauled? I'm looking at cessnas and Piper pa-28s (the usual suspects). I would hate to buy an Arrow with dual GTN 750s and a G600 and the wings fall off on the first landing because it also has 15,000 hrs TT.
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I recently read the Mike Busch book on Engines and learned a whole lot about what to look for and how to get the most out of engine life. This would be a great book to read prior to shopping. It’s very readable and written for the benefit of plane owners. Very highly recommend.
 
chemgeek said:
Some aircraft models have life-limited parts, e.g. the Grumman AA5X series has 12,000-12,500 hour limits on various wing spar assemblies. Something to be aware of.
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Doesn't the traumahawk have limits on the wings too?
 
Mine has 11,400ish on it. You'd think it had 1,400 on it if you didn't know.

Like Ryan said, it's all about how it was maintained.... mine was owned by the state of georgia, and they went all out on maintenance and it shows
 
Ryanb said:
It all boils down to how well it’s been maintained.
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Maintenance doesn't address metal fatigue unless it involves total replacement of major components, which is rare unless major damage occurred. Few planes actually become structurally unsound due to flight hours, but can and has happened to some types.
 
tawood said:
Doesn't the traumahawk have limits on the wings too?
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Yes, as do Cirri and others.

It is essentially a product of part 23 certification. As far as I know most (but not all) airplanes certified under part 23 have some sort of life limit on them.
 
Jim Rosenow said:
Our 182RG was an FBI airplane also. 7K total time, but at 4.5K had a military-grade R&R. We're quite happy with it. That said, to echo others....do your research/pre-buy.

Jim
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Military grade? It sounds good but as someone who used to be an aircraft mechanic in the military I don't know what that means.
 
How many hours did the plane that lost a wing (Daytona) have on it?
 
Timbeck2 said:
Military grade? It sounds good but as someone who used to be an aircraft mechanic in the military I don't know what that means.
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Well, of course you don't, Tim....I made the term up! :) I was trying to make the point that it was over-the-top serious...to the point that a fuselage stringer and some flying surfaces were replaced, and the entire airplane was zinc chromated inside. This old girl is gonna last a LONG time! The FBI had lotso our $$ to spend.

Jim
 
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For planes that aren't sought after workhorses and don't already have specific life limits, the market starts to put a heavy discount on planes as they approach the 10,000 hour mark. At that point, even in good condition, the value of the airframe is pretty low. The sale price is approaching the value of the engine and radios.
 
Old and high time is bad. Old and real low time is bad. Old is less gooder than not so old, which is less badder.

I'm looking at experimentals; one was built in 1986 and has < 300 hours TT - someone was afraid to fly it, I think. So, I am too!
 
Jim Rosenow said:
Well, of course you don't, Tim....I made the term up! :) I was trying to make the point that it was over-the-top serious...to the point that a fuselage stringer and some flying surfaces were replaced, and the entire airplane was zinc chromated inside. This old girl is gonna last a LONG time! The FBI had lotso our $$ to spend.

Jim
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You may also structurally have the equivalent of a 207 tail. Had a long discussion with a gentleman at Oshkosh about all the things the FBI did to the fleet. Do you by chance still have the original FBI radio stack in there?
 
teejayevans said:
How many hours did the plane that lost a wing (Daytona) have on it?
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7,690
mtuomi said:
Nowhere near enough to explain the failure.
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Yeah but it landed a lot o_O at least that is what a lot of people on here were assuming was part of the cause...



By the way, how does a plane built in 1970 have only 3,000 on it? That's only about 5 or so hours per month or about 60 hours per year.. I would assume that people who go through the expense of purchasing an airplane would fly it a little more than that...
 
Tantalum said:
By the way, how does a plane built in 1970 have only 3,000 on it? That's only about 5 or so hours per month or about 60 hours per year.. I would assume that people who go through the expense of purchasing an airplane would fly it a little more than that...
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There are a whole lot of airplanes out there that do not fly 60 hours a year. I would say a very large proportion of light singles fly 2-3 hours a month. One weekend a month they go for a burger run, and then maybe once a year there's a trip 4 hours each way.

I have known a lot of people who would buy airplanes and fly them 100 hours the first year, 75 the next, 50 the next, and then 20 per year until they get tired of the expense.
 
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