How much of the approach has to be in IMC to log it?

Mistake Not...

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Mistake Not...
I searched on "logging approach" and found tons of stuff. But nothing that seemed to answer the question "How much of an approach must be in IMC for it to count toward currency requirements?"

Sure seems like if you are on an IFR flight, start an approach in IMC and then successfully land, that should count, even if you break out into VMC before landing.
 
I searched on "logging approach" and found tons of stuff. But nothing that seemed to answer the question "How much of an approach must be in IMC for it to count toward currency requirements?"

Sure seems like if you are on an IFR flight, start an approach in IMC and then successfully land, that should count, even if you break out into VMC before landing.
Only about 40 threads have discussed this one through the years, here and elsewhere . Like this one from about 7 years ago :yes: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/foru...ent+approach+procedure+minimum+descent+height. (There are more recent ones. I'm just having some fun)

So many in fact that I wrote a FAQ on it. Must have been more than 10 years ago.

It's called "How Much Actual Is Required to Log an Instrument Approach?"
http://midlifeflight.com/flying-faq/faq-instrument-procedures-currency/
 
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Mark forgot to ask are you flying a high wing or a low wing?

Seriously the "Rule of Reason" is the way to go; othewise we will all be taking gopro video of every approach and submitting it to the FSDO and asking if they will approve logging the approach.
 
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Seriously the "Rule of Reason" is the way to go; othewise we will all be taking gopro video of every approach and submitting it to the FSDO and asking if they will approve logging the approach.
Or worse, writing the FAA Chief Counsel for a precise answer to the question, which is likely to result in having to be in solid IMC from the IAF down to minimums in order to log it. Do we really want that? I didn't think so... :mad2:
 
just find a cloud to blow thru while on the approach....and call it good. :D
 
I have a simple rule, if I'm still in the soup at the FAF, it's a logged approach.
 
We go through this about every six months, hmmm timing is everything.

Why make this harder than it is? The FAA Counsel said "to minimums"
if you can't demonstrate approaches to minimums in actual conditions (virtually impossible)
then,
you must go out and do them in simulated conditions (always possible)
So, it is very clear, the FAA wants you to practice instrument procedures every six months for currency.
Simple isn't it.
Oh, don't forget
(ii) Holding procedures and tasks.

(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigational electronic systems.
 
My two cents is that if I could not have flown the approach without operating under IFR then I will log it. Whether that means I crossed the IAF in the clouds, or the FAF, or anything in between.
 
Why make this harder than it is? The FAA Counsel said "to minimums"
Actually they said you have to FLY the approach to minimums... not that the conditions had to be actual instrument down that far.

Cap'n Ron thinks that was deliberate vagueness on their part. I don't think so, I think they meant it the way you read it, but since they didn't actually SAY that...

IMO flying in actual is a lot better in terms of improving proficiency than any kind of simulated that I know of (with the possible exception of the Francis hood, which has its own disadvantages). I also like to land sometimes, so needing to have conditions all the way down to minimums on every logged approach is not a good thing. So I don't really see a problem with following the "Rule of Reason" on this. If I'm in actual past the FAF and have to fly a substantial part of the FAS on the gauges, I'll count it and I think most people will too, as long as it is legal.

If someone wants to write the CC there's nothing anyone can do to stop them. I just hope they'll stop and consider whether it will really do anything to improve aviation safety if the answer is that you basically can't count approaches in actual unless you're forced to miss.
 
I have a simple rule, if I'm still in the soup at the FAF, it's a logged approach.

If I'm in 'real' IMC (not just cloud clearance IMC) at any point along the published route of the approach - basically after the IAF or in the case of being vectored, on the FAC - before breaking out, I log it. Especially since some approaches don't have a FAF. :D

Like this one: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1508/05283V27.PDF
 
This appears to be one of those cases where some of the same people who will argue that the FAA is too busy micromanaging the way we fly, want the the FAA to micromanage the way we fly.

I'm in the Rule of Reason school of thought.
 
An approach is like pornography, you know it when you see it. :)
 
We go through this about every six months, hmmm timing is everything.

Why make this harder than it is? The FAA Counsel said "to minimums"
if you can't demonstrate approaches to minimums in actual conditions (virtually impossible)
then,
you must go out and do them in simulated conditions (always possible)
So, it is very clear, the FAA wants you to practice instrument procedures every six months for currency.
Simple isn't it.
Oh, don't forget
(ii) Holding procedures and tasks.

(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigational electronic systems.
You are more than welcome to take the position (for yourself) that a cargo pilot who regularly hand-flies "hard IFR" single pilot in the middle of the night, breaking out 100' above minimums at least once a week on a regular basis, doesn't meet basic currency requirements unless he puts on a hood in severe clear VFR and lets his autopilot fly six of them at the home base airport he knows like the back of his hand.
 
"Did I need the approach?" is what I go by. If I needed the IAP to get from the IAF to the threshold, I log it.
 
The FAA letter only made things less clear (typical regurgitation of unclear regs combined with clueless un-implementable 'interpretation' by a bureaucrat :mad2:).

Most people I know would count a non-foggles instrument approach as a logged instrument approach if they're flying the approach because they couldn't legally fly that landing under full VFR conditions.

1) Cleared for an ILS approach on a day with unlimited visibility and clear skies (happens at busy airports). Not a logged approach under instrument conditions.

2) Fly an approach that takes you through clouds or an area of non-VFR visibility. Logged.

As many have pointed out previously, if it's interpreted that it only counts if you fly the whole approach IMC all the way to minimums then many airline pilots wouldn't even hit that target each 6 months.

I, and most I know, believe the 'fly to minimums' was meant to say that you actually have to fly the approach as an approach (e.g., you can't just intercept a localizer/glide slope for 30 seconds and then be like 'yeah, cool we'll count that').
 
IMC is neither necessary nor sufficient to log IFR currency.
 
"Actual or simulated IFR conditons". (I'm quoting from Mark's FAQ).

Isn't "actual IFR conditions" the same as Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC)? As EdFred hints at above, this includes the "I can see the runway, but I'm technically too close to clouds / too close to the ceiling to be considered VFR" IMC.

My current understanding is that IMC is defined by cloud clearance requirements in a particular airspace. If it's IMC, and you do an approach, then it counts. Even if you break out early and can see the runway environment. Nothing I can find says you must be unable to see the runway until the last second.

I think the use of a hood to simulate IFR conditions is causing the confusion (at least it was for me). That ensures you have zero visibility. But that's not what "actual IFR conditions" (IMC) means. It means you're in IMC. And that's not necessarily the same thing.
 
"Actual or simulated IFR conditons". (I'm quoting from Mark's FAQ).

Isn't "actual IFR conditions" the same as Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC)? As EdFred hints at above, this includes the "I can see the runway, but I'm technically too close to clouds / too close to the ceiling to be considered VFR" IMC.

My current understanding is that IMC is defined by cloud clearance requirements in a particular airspace. If it's IMC, and you do an approach, then it counts. Even if you break out early and can see the runway environment. Nothing I can find says you must be unable to see the runway until the last second.

I think the use of a hood to simulate IFR conditions is causing the confusion (at least it was for me). That ensures you have zero visibility. But that's not what "actual IFR conditions" (IMC) means. It means you're in IMC. And that's not necessarily the same thing.

Correct. The FAA defines IMC as not-VFR conditions (aka you're flying under IFR flight rules). Being in a cloud or totally in the soup is IMC, but so is 2.5 miles visibility and/or a broken cloud layer at 900 ft if say landing at a Class D airport. You can see the ground perfectly fine but still be in IMC from a regulatory perspective.
 
2) Fly an approach that takes you through clouds or an area of non-VFR visibility. Logged.

What if I pop through a marine layer and break out at 1500 feet? Most of the time, I could go around the marine layer and land VFR.

Does it make a difference if I break out before the FAF?
 
You are more than welcome to take the position (for yourself) that a cargo pilot who regularly hand-flies "hard IFR" single pilot in the middle of the night, breaking out 100' above minimums at least once a week on a regular basis, doesn't meet basic currency requirements unless he puts on a hood in severe clear VFR and lets his autopilot fly six of them at the home base airport he knows like the back of his hand.

First, I don't think anyone here fits that category and a cargo pilot is commercially rated and working/operating on some form of business/company Part xxx certificate (not Part 91 GA). I am pretty sure they must go through six month currency/check rides just like the rest of the "for hire" pilots do to maintain currency.

This is a GA question..... in that, the requirement is meant for safety. I didn't hear a single argument that they are not required for that purpose or that the practice does not offer the skill/ability that is intended. Why do you want to manipulate around a regulation that really is a benefit to you as a pilot?
Put another way, do you really think popping through a 100' layer at the FAF is demonstrating your ability to maintain a lateral track and vertical G/S in gusty winds and turbulent conditions? or maybe you don't need to practice that?
 
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Put another way, do you really think popping through a 100' layer at the FAF is demonstrating your ability to maintain a lateral track and vertical G/S in gusty winds and turbulent conditions? or maybe you don't need to practice that?

Little piece of advice; when you start adding previously unmentioned elements to your argument, you lose credibility.

Are you now trying to say that we need to log wind and turbulence in our practice simulated approaches down to minimums???

This is a perfect example of the applying the rule of reason. If you can't use common sense to keep yourself competent and safe, maybe you DO need to fly 6 approaches to mins under the hood every 6 months. Or better yet, if it applies to you, better schedule an IPC every 6 months.
 
Little piece of advice; when you start adding previously unmentioned elements to your argument, you lose credibility.

Are you now trying to say that we need to log wind and turbulence in our practice simulated approaches down to minimums???

This is a perfect example of the applying the rule of reason. If you can't use common sense to keep yourself competent and safe, maybe you DO need to fly 6 approaches to mins under the hood every 6 months. Or better yet, if it applies to you, better schedule an IPC every 6 months.

as to the second paragraph perhaps you should follow your own advice on credibility.
as to the last paragraph. Are you suggesting we can just write in our logbooks that we feel by common sense that we are competent and safe so no IFR currency is needed?

All I am trying to say is that most of us do not practice enough to keep all our skills at the peak of performance. Most of the time they are not tested for real. I personally would prefer to have those skills tested in simulated conditions. IF the time comes that I need to demonstrate those skills for real, I want to be as prepared as I can be.
If you think using the "rule of reason" allows you the competence you need it is of course your choice.
 
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Isn't "actual IFR conditions" the same as Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC)? As EdFred hints at above, this includes the "I can see the runway, but I'm technically too close to clouds / too close to the ceiling to be considered VFR" IMC.
I don't think that's correct. I'm too lazy to check right now, but I think the wording of the reg is "actual or simulated instrument conditions", not IFR conditions. Instrument conditions means you need to be on the gauges to control the airplane. IOW I don't think it's legitimate to log an approach when you were 200 feet below the bases the whole way down. Yes, you were IMC, because IMC means "not VMC", i.e. in violation of the VFR vis or cloud clearance requirements, but you were perfectly capable of flying the approach visually.

Again, I think the "rule of reason" is the best guide here. The point of the reg is to promote proficiency in flying by instruments alone. If you're in visual conditions without a hood, how does that help you maintain the skills needed for instrument flying? You get to practice using your avionics and procedural details, but not the exquisite challenge of keeping the plane right side up without visual reference at the same time. Having the buttonology down and second nature is an important subset of the needed skills, but it's not enough.
 
Little piece of advice; when you start adding previously unmentioned elements to your argument, you lose credibility.

Are you now trying to say that we need to log wind and turbulence in our practice simulated approaches down to minimums???

This is a perfect example of the applying the rule of reason. If you can't use common sense to keep yourself competent and safe, maybe you DO need to fly 6 approaches to mins under the hood every 6 months. Or better yet, if it applies to you, better schedule an IPC every 6 months.

I try to do them every 6 months or so as an excuse to meet up with a buddy and go fly his plane and check out the latest and greatest in avionics.:D
 
as to the second paragraph perhaps you should follow your own advice on credibility.

as to the last paragraph. Are you suggesting we can just write in our logbooks that we feel by common sense that we are competent and safe so no IFR currency is needed?



All I am trying to say is that most of us do not practice enough to keep all our skills at the peak of performance. Most of the time they are not tested for real. I personally would prefer to have those skills tested in simulated conditions. IF the time comes that I need to demonstrate those skills for real, I want to be as prepared as I can be.

If you think using the "rule of reason" allows you the competence you need it is of course your choice.

The only thing I am saying is that you are doing what we in the Navy call nuking this. Making something much harder than it really needs to be.
 
I don't think that's correct. I'm too lazy to check right now, but I think the wording of the reg is "actual or simulated instrument conditions", not IFR conditions.

Ah. One of the things I learned from this forum was that there is no IFR conditions. There's VMC and IMC, and you can be IFR in VMC and VFR in IMC (SVFR, I suppose). I know you know this. And, I freely admit I'm into hair splitting territory.

The intent of the reg comes down to what "actual instrument conditions" means, and I guess this is where the Reasonableness interpretation would have me assume "IMC, as defined by cloud clearance requirements".

I think the phrase the FAA has used in other situations, and should have in this one if they meant it was "solely by reference to instruments". The problem with that is that as pointed out earlier, almost no one would be able to stay current unless you have to go missed, since successfully completing the approach means picking up the runway environment at some point before MDA or DH.



Instrument conditions means you need to be on the gauges to control the airplane. IOW I don't think it's legitimate to log an approach when you were 200 feet below the bases the whole way down. Yes, you were IMC, because IMC means "not VMC", i.e. in violation of the VFR vis or cloud clearance requirements, but you were perfectly capable of flying the approach visually.
If it's IMC -for the entire approach- you're looking at less than 1000 ft ceiling and less than 3 miles visibility. Most approaches I've looked at have substantional portions above that. Not zero/zero, but not exactly CAVU either.

Again, I think the "rule of reason" is the best guide here. The point of the reg is to promote proficiency in flying by instruments alone. If you're in visual conditions without a hood, how does that help you maintain the skills needed for instrument flying? You get to practice using your avionics and procedural details, but not the exquisite challenge of keeping the plane right side up without visual reference at the same time. Having the buttonology down and second nature is an important subset of the needed skills, but it's not enough.
I see your point, but assuming IMC and, say, a 500fpm descent rate, the -maximum- time you're able to "cheat" and see the runway environment would be 2 minutes. The rest of the approach would be flown in reduced visibility.

Your line of reasoning leads to the situation where even airline captains would have trouble staying current since even approaches done in IMC done to (almost) minimums wouldn't count toward currency.

Thanks y'all. I knew it would have been asked and answered to death, but I couldn't find a simple summary of the current best recommendation.

Clearly, the current definition is a less than perfect (well, no, it's a horrible) way to specify currency requirements. If zero/zero approaches are that important, then the "actual IFR conditions" part should be eliminated and you should be required to fly with a safety pilot or instructor. If that's not the intent, there darn well oughta be an explanation of what "actual instrument conditions" really means. And the reference to it being "intentionally vague" should result in, at the very least, someone getting fired. :) Nothing that affects safety like this should be intentionally vague. wtf.
 

True. I assume you mean with a view limiting device. I meant to ask, "How much of an approach that doesn't use a view limiting device must be in a cloud (no visibility whatsoever)."

It's actually hard to ask when I'm trying to ask. If I'm in IMC and I don't go to minimums can I still count the approach for currency requirements? Yeah, maybe that's it. :)
 
The intent is how proficient do you want to be? If you want to be happy logging an approach when you broke out at 1500' AGL to get your six in, then got for it. Personally, I like to go out with an SP and shoot them to minimums.
 
This appears to be one of those cases where some of the same people who will argue that the FAA is too busy micromanaging the way we fly, want the the FAA to micromanage the way we fly.
To be more accurate, there appear to be some here who want the FAA to micromanage the way others fly. The FAA gives us quite a bit of leeway in many things. But there are always those who want everyone to do things their way.

I'm in the Rule of Reason school of thought.
Same here.
 
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Here's a good article on the subject.

http://answersforpilots.com/blog/645/logging-instrument-currency-approaches

I am in the "Rule of Reason" group. Because of the vagueness of the regulation. If I feel I actually used my instrument skills, I log the approach. If I am VMC, use the localizer to intercept final and then I'm eyes outside the rest of the approach, I don't log it.
 
Your line of reasoning leads to the situation where even airline captains would have trouble staying current since even approaches done in IMC done to (almost) minimums wouldn't count toward currency.
Not at all, because I don't think any reasonable person would think they shouldn't log the approach if they broke out 100, or 200, or even 500 feet above minimums. Again, rule of reason. Did flying the approach help you maintain proficiency at flying solely by reference to instruments? If I can honestly answer yes to that question, I log it.

I don't think the CC left this "intentionally vague". I said Ron Levy said that was his opinion, that the lawyers talked to someone with operational knowledge and took the hint to not make the rule so onerous that no one could count anything. I think that would be the first time the FAA lawyers opted to interpret something in less than the strictest sense allowed by the wording, reason be damned. But I don't think there is anything wrong with the rule being left fortuitously vague here, as long as pilots are reasonably honest and only count approaches that were flown substantially in instrument conditions.

After all, if you cheat on this you're cheating yourself.
 
I'm in "The rule of reason" because nobody gives a **** about this stuff.
 
I'm in the rule of reason camp. Let your connscience be your guide. Log what you would actually fly.
 
wow...just wow.

If foggles were required for legal ops then 99.99999999% of us are busted.
 
To be more accurate, there appear to be some here who want the FAA to micromanage the way others fly. The FAA gives us quite a bit of leeway in many things. But there are always those who want everyone to do things their way.

.

And they would cleverly cloak their statements with such things as "The FAA agrees with me" and use phrases such as "on point", plus sprinkle in a bunch of non relevant Chief Counsel letters.
 
And they would cleverly cloak their statements with such things as "The FAA agrees with me" and use phrases such as "on point", plus sprinkle in a bunch of non relevant Chief Counsel letters.

He's gone, let it go.

:mad2:
 
He's gone, let it go.

:mad2:

sarcasm_zps7eb60073.gif
 
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