How much damage history = no buy/fly?

N659HB

N659HB

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Just curious as to how much damage (and what kind) is acceptable from a risk standpoint.

Any owners out there flying extensively repaired airplanes?
 
N659HB said:
Just curious as to how much damage (and what kind) is acceptable from a risk standpoint.

Any owners out there flying extensively repaired airplanes?
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Everytime you get on an airliner you do.
 
A 20 year old gear up, I wouldn't sweat it after a careful inspection. Wing spar corrosion? It's going to take some convincing me. Another thing to consider about damage is that it may not be an issue, but most people are just temporary caretakers of airplanes and will eventually one day sell it, if the damage isn't an issue, it'll still be a point of conversation when you go to sell it.
 
When I bought my aircraft there was a weld in the step, so I "knew" it had been geared up at least once (it turns out that talking to others it was, in fact, a near gear up where he dragged the step and then put the power to it and went around). There was also an NTSB report of the engine failing during a go around resulting in an off-airport gear-up landing. The logs show some other instances of a checkered past. The aircraft (as evidenced by the 337's) had been through a couple of pretty major restorations.

I had a engine failure right after takeoff and made the "impossible" turn back but managed to roll the tire off the rim due to some remaining sideways drift on touch down which resulted in me careening off the runway causing some damage to the prop and the left main gear. This engine failure lead to the last major restoration. Did a firewall forward, found a NOS firewall replaced that, then did the interior, panel, paint (pretty much everything firewall rearward).
 
Here's me picking up my newly-purchased seneca. I flew it after a quick coat of paint (and 3 years of evenings doing sheet metal and structural work)

At the other end of the spectrum was my pawnee brave. It was so damaged that the entire airplane fit in an envelope.
 

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My 182 had the left (?) wing damaged and repaired when it was less than a year old, from what I recall it was pretty significant damage, but it happened 35 years ago. If it was going to fall off, I think it would have by now. :D
The 421B that I sold in April had a nose gear collapse 12+ years ago, new props and the engines were torn down by Continental. I didn't figure it was a biggie and neither did the buyer.
Given the choice of two identical airplanes, if there were such a thing, I would buy the one without "known damage history" Lots of airplanes have some damage in their past, most of it documented and properly repaired, some of it "just fixed":dunno:
 
Providing the repair was done correctly there is no risk outside of the marketing issue. The bottom line is that if you want to sell the aircraft and there are other equivalent aircraft for sale with no damage history the majority of uneducated buyers will gravitate towards the aircraft with the clean record despite the fact that yours may be superior in aspects such as mechanical condition or equipage. Either that or they will confront you with the attitude that you owe them some sort of financial penalty.

The penalty may be a wash because it's possible that you yourself levied it on the previous owner but you're still faced with a percentage of potential buyers who simply won't even come kick the tires because of the history.

Myself, I seek out the extensively repaired airplanes because of this situation.
 
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I think it is getting harder and harder to find airplanes with no damage history. Then within the damage history group you have to determine the level of damage and of course whether or not it was fixed correctly.

If the damage were 13 years ago and it has flown since you might assume it is fixed right but you also could still be wrong. I bought a plane with 13 year old DH and it was supposedly fixed correctly then 13 months later at my first annual the IA wanted to explore by taking aluminum off the wing and lower cockpit to see if it was fixed right. They suggested I might want to rebuild my wings and he had a new set of wings in the back for $17k. This was the same guy who looked at the plane for me when I bought it so it really ****ed me off. I told him to button up the plane and bill me what I owe you for the attempted annual and pushed the plane across the field to another shop, I called FAA and got a DER to come out and his opinion was that other shop must have been under finance stress and needed a good month. That same summer I began my A & P training and took the General class for the A&P.

Turned out I bought what I thought I bought so I was ok however if had I bought a NDH plane I would not have gone through this attempted robbery.

Major damage (mine was a gear up) generally requires a drawing of how to fix it to be submitted to a DER for approval. If it is approved and repaired according to that drawing then it is ok. But buying a plane with old Damage history is no guarantee you will not run into a problem.

For this reason I would not consider another airplane with damage history unless it had a unique combination of equipment I covet that cannot be gotten easily some where else and /or had a significant discount to other aircraft that are not damaged but in similar condition. To me that number is at least $5-10k and more like $15k or 10-20% discount. I've talked to appraisers and they often do not ding those aircraft as harshly as I might.
 
Silvaire said:
the majority of uneducated buyers will gravitate towards the aircraft with the clean record
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Yeah, Us dummies will prefer a plane with no damage history. And we will pay more for a plane with no damage history because we are uneducated.
 
My Cessna 180 was built in 1960. Early logs show a number of problems related to empennage components, and in 1964 an entry shows "entire tail replaced aft of Sta. XXX. I've always assumed something (or somethings) out of the ordinary caused the replacement. Fortunately, the replaced area is easy to inspect and confirm that it was done properly. Whatever happened 49 years ago appears to be fixed.
 
I was selling an airplane once that had been damaged in a hurricane a couple years earlier. The "fix" was to unbolt the damaged wing, bolt on a factory new wing. Yet I had people wanting me to discount my the price by 25% or more under market value for similar airplanes.

So the question becomes: what constitutes "damage history"? All airplanes have been dinged or had something break. The part is replaced or properly repaired. Is the airplane, in fact, "damaged"? So really the only answer one can give to your question is, "It depends."
 
Did you ultimately discount your plane? How much due to DH?


Ken Ibold said:
I was selling an airplane once that had been damaged in a hurricane a couple years earlier. The "fix" was to unbolt the damaged wing, bolt on a factory new wing. Yet I had people wanting me to discount my the price by 25% or more under market value for similar airplanes.

So the question becomes: what constitutes "damage history"? All airplanes have been dinged or had something break. The part is replaced or properly repaired. Is the airplane, in fact, "damaged"? So really the only answer one can give to your question is, "It depends."
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Ken Ibold said:
I was selling an airplane once that had been damaged in a hurricane a couple years earlier. The "fix" was to unbolt the damaged wing, bolt on a factory new wing. Yet I had people wanting me to discount my the price by 25% or more under market value for similar airplanes.

So the question becomes: what constitutes "damage history"? All airplanes have been dinged or had something break. The part is replaced or properly repaired. Is the airplane, in fact, "damaged"? So really the only answer one can give to your question is, "It depends."
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Yeah, that.
 
If it's a 172, I'd be likely to pass and just keep looking. If it was a much more rare plane, I'd be willing to accept a lot of damage if it's what I want.

In fact, right now I'm looking at a very rare plane, and all of them are going to have damage history so I have to accept it and just inspect carefully.
 
How many of you would pass up an opportunity to own, say, "Glacier Girl" because it had damage history and had only been flying a few years since fixed?
Every airplane is unique, so every situation is unique. I always say "Lead with your heart, go with your head, do lots of homework, then step away for a little while and think about it again."
Works with everything, from airplanes to women.
I've never owned a zebra or a Z car so I couldn't do the entire "a to z" thing. Sorry.
 
Good points, all. Thanks for the replies.

My situation is I've got a hankerin' for an early Luscombe. It's relatively fast for the power, and (to date) within my price range. I figure the chances of finding a 60+ year-old airplane with no damage history is pretty slim. My concerns would be damage from groundloops, followed by corrosion/neglect issues.
 
N659HB said:
Good points, all. Thanks for the replies.

My situation is I've got a hankerin' for an early Luscombe. It's relatively fast for the power, and (to date) within my price range. I figure the chances of finding a 60+ year-old airplane with no damage history is pretty slim. My concerns would be damage from groundloops, followed by corrosion/neglect issues.
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there are only 2 kinds of damage history: disclosed and undisclosed. There is no such thing as no-damage-history when it comes to decades-old airplanes
 
N659HB said:
Good points, all. Thanks for the replies.

My situation is I've got a hankerin' for an early Luscombe. It's relatively fast for the power, and (to date) within my price range. I figure the chances of finding a 60+ year-old airplane with no damage history is pretty slim. My concerns would be damage from groundloops, followed by corrosion/neglect issues.
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Yup, it's gone around on the ground I'm pretty certain. If the logs are complete look for repairs to the gear attach points, and the wing tips.
 
Luscombes, Swifts, and Ercoupes.
I have an incurable addiction for them.
I'm told the only known cure is to own one.
 
N659HB said:
Good points, all. Thanks for the replies.

My situation is I've got a hankerin' for an early Luscombe. It's relatively fast for the power, and (to date) within my price range. I figure the chances of finding a 60+ year-old airplane with no damage history is pretty slim. My concerns would be damage from groundloops, followed by corrosion/neglect issues.
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You're right about the slim chance of there being no prior damage of any sort but that isn't a true concern, whether it was a ground loop or a tornado, Your only concern is the current condition of the aircraft, not the condition it was in 35 years ago immediately following a mishap.

As far as "history" goes you may or may not get the full story from the logbooks. It's rare that someone will make a logbook entry detailing a ground loop but there may be tell tale entries on repairs or parts invoices that give clues. It depends on the owner. I have all the logbooks for my '46 Luscombe and I know that back in 1963 the owner lost oil pressure over New Mexico, tried to land on a road and went into a ditch. Back in the old days the books were often combination flight and maintenance logs so along with oil changes and engine overhauls there is basically an entry for every flight the aircraft made.

But with old Luscombes, Champs, Cubs etc it's a different world than that of appraisers and people who would be overly concerned about an incident in the distant past that now amounts to nothing more than a few scribbled words in a logbook. That's more about numbers and speculation than the actual mechanics of utilization of the aircraft. So, in your case I wouldn't worry so much about it.
 
Silvaire said:
You're right about the slim chance of there being no prior damage of any sort but that isn't a true concern, whether it was a ground loop or a tornado, Your only concern is the current condition of the aircraft, not the condition it was in 35 years ago immediately following a mishap.

As far as "history" goes you may or may not get the full story from the logbooks. It's rare that someone will make a logbook entry detailing a ground loop but there may be tell tale entries on repairs or parts invoices that give clues. It depends on the owner. I have all the logbooks for my '46 Luscombe and I know that back in 1963 the owner lost oil pressure over New Mexico, tried to land on a road and went into a ditch. Back in the old days the books were often combination flight and maintenance logs so along with oil changes and engine overhauls there is basically an entry for every flight the aircraft made.

But with old Luscombes, Champs, Cubs etc it's a different world than that of appraisers and people who would be overly concerned about an incident in the distant past that now amounts to nothing more than a few scribbled words in a logbook. That's more about numbers and speculation than the actual mechanics of utilization of the aircraft. So, in your case I wouldn't worry so much about it.
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Silvaire, thanks for the insights. Good to hear from a Luscombe owner.

Given that 'complete' logs may be impossible to obtain, what would constitute a reasonably accurate log history? 25 years? 30 years?
 
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N659HB said:
Given that 'complete' logs may be impossible to obtain, what would constitute a reasonably accurate log history? 25 years? 30 years?
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As we've discussed in regards to damage history, what does it really matter if nothing is currently damaged on the aircraft? Same goes for engine, prop, accessories. Of what use is a logbook entry that the engine was overhauled in June of 1969 if it had been overhauled again in 1998? So really there are only certain items that are relevant. If it's a ragwing you'd want to see the entry when it was last covered. Likewise for the engine and prop, you'd want documented proof of how many hours are on them - stuff like that.

There wouldn't be a specific term as to how many years the logs should go back. Having all of them is neat but when shopping for an aircraft like this you aren't going to walk away from a perfectly good one based on the logbook situation.
 
Silvaire said:
As we've discussed in regards to damage history, what does it really matter if nothing is currently damaged on the aircraft? Same goes for engine, prop, accessories. Of what use is a logbook entry that the engine was overhauled in June of 1969 if it had been overhauled again in 1998? So really there are only certain items that are relevant. If it's a ragwing you'd want to see the entry when it was last covered. Likewise for the engine and prop, you'd want documented proof of how many hours are on them - stuff like that.

There wouldn't be a specific term as to how many years the logs should go back. Having all of them is neat but when shopping for an aircraft like this you aren't going to walk away from a perfectly good one based on the logbook situation.
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Without logs, you do not truly know total time on the airframe.
 
Silvaire said:
There wouldn't be a specific term as to how many years the logs should go back. Having all of them is neat but when shopping for an aircraft like this you aren't going to walk away from a perfectly good one based on the logbook situation.
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Oh, I think you'd be surprised at how many people insist on perfect logbooks on a 30-40 year old airplane!:mad2:
But, to each his own. I bought my Conquest knowing the first 15 years of logs were missing, I know why they are missing and who has maintained it most the the last 14 years, so while I discounted my offer based on the value of the missing logs, it wasn't a show stopper for me. :D I am sure others looked at it and bought another airplane based strictly on log books, good logs don't make a good plane, nor do missing or incomplete logs make a bad plane. An airplane is what it is right now, not what it was 20 years ago. ;)
 
Hey, I have complete logbooks dating all the way back to 1958.
 
I've never cared about the condition of a plane 30 years ago. It depends on the condition today. As for the price, the market does penalize DH a bit so I suppose it matters some. A prop strike 2 overhauls ago can't get me spun up at all though....
 
John221us said:
Without logs, you do not truly know total time on the airframe.
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You know when it was built so you know how old it is. What do airframe flight hours tell you anyway? Straight and level in calm air? Severe turbulence? Yank and bank? Training? How about the number of hours tied down in a constant gusty thirty five knot quartering tailwind with not control locks? In the end all you have is a number, a meaningless number and an aircraft that is in the condition it is in. I don't even want to try and tell you how much of my Luscombe airframe is the same material that rolled off the assembly line in 1946.
 
jbarrass said:
I've never cared about the condition of a plane 30 years ago. It depends on the condition today. As for the price, the market does penalize DH a bit so I suppose it matters some. A prop strike 2 overhauls ago can't get me spun up at all though....
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I guess it depends on the type of damage. Mine had a poor wing repair (just skin was damaged), but they drilled into the spar making the repair. My shop didn't catch it until the third annual, because they couldn't see it without the tank out. Fixing the bad repair ended up costing me about $6,000 (DER, repair, new skin, paint, etc.). The original repair was done a long time ago and the wing never fell off, but go figure, my AI wouldn't sign it off as airworthy. To say there are no risks with old damage history is wishful thinking.
 
the only concern I have is how well the plane was repaired. That being said, you need to know someone you trust 110% to let you know, even if that person is yourself. I can read log books and see that something was done, but I have no idea what a good repair looks like in most situations.
 
Silvaire said:
You know when it was built so you know how old it is. What do airframe flight hours tell you anyway? Straight and level in calm air? Severe turbulence? Yank and bank? Training? How about the number of hours tied down in a constant gusty thirty five knot quartering tailwind with not control locks? In the end all you have is a number, a meaningless number and an aircraft that is in the condition it is in. I don't even want to try and tell you how much of my Luscombe airframe is the same material that rolled off the assembly line in 1946.
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Then it doesn't matter to you, but it does to some people and I was just pointing out that it is a piece of information that is missing when you don't have all the logs. I have a friend who it is very important to. He cites metal fatigue and he strongly believes it. I am not saying that I feel as strongly, just that some people do.
 
John221us said:
Then it doesn't matter to you, but it does to some people and I was just pointing out that it is a piece of information that is missing when you don't have all the logs. I have a friend who it is very important to. He cites metal fatigue and he strongly believes it. I am not saying that I feel as strongly, just that some people do.
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I understand, I'm just pointing out that that piece of information, regardless of how strongly one might feel about it, doesn't provide the information they think they are getting from it. Unless you are purchasing something like a Grumman or Cirrus with life limited spars the total airframe flight hours is worthless information, there's nothing you can do with it.

Again, it just comes down to haggling price and certain people are going to use it for that purpose.

In the case of your poor wing repair, that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about proper repairs and how one goes about determining that is another matter. As far as that goes one cannot put full faith in NDH based on the lack of logbook entries or NTSB reports either.
 
EdFred said:
Hey, I have complete logbooks dating all the way back to 1958.
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Me too, including some interesting entries from when my plane had an experimental AW cert and worked in beech's engineering department.
 
JHW said:
Me too, including some interesting entries from when my plane had an experimental AW cert and worked in beech's engineering department.
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:lol:
I had to so some extra poking around in a Navajo that was going from one 135 ticket onto another to get it back out of the restricted category, seems when the cloud seeding equipment was removed they just slid the original AW cert back into the plane and didn't tell the FAA. It had gone onto the first 135 ticket before the database was online so no on knew at the time. Thankfully it was an easy task.
 
So on one hand, I agree it's the current condition of the plane that matters, not the past condition. On the other hand, John's story is an example of something that might have been inspected more closely than normal in a pre-buy, if John knew when he was buying it that a repair had been made to that part of the plane.

I just found out about a plane on the market near me, but I haven't talked to the owner yet. I just googled the N-number, and I found this: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001214X40673&key=1... This report is pretty sparse, so I don't know what was repaired. I think the accident was too long ago to have all the information on-line. (Bonus points for anyone who can tell me how to get more information, besides asking the current owner.)

From the outside, the plane looks like it's in decent shape, and it's obviously flown since then, but I wish I knew what spots I should ask for a mechanic to look at closer.

P.S. Knowing only what's in the (sparse) NTSB report, would anyone run away from this one?
 
livitup said:
So on one hand, I agree it's the current condition of the plane that matters, not the past condition. On the other hand, John's story is an example of something that might have been inspected more closely than normal in a pre-buy, if John knew when he was buying it that a repair had been made to that part of the plane.

I just found out about a plane on the market near me, but I haven't talked to the owner yet. I just googled the N-number, and I found this: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001214X40673&key=1... This report is pretty sparse, so I don't know what was repaired. I think the accident was too long ago to have all the information on-line. (Bonus points for anyone who can tell me how to get more information, besides asking the current owner.)

From the outside, the plane looks like it's in decent shape, and it's obviously flown since then, but I wish I knew what spots I should ask for a mechanic to look at closer.

P.S. Knowing only what's in the (sparse) NTSB report, would anyone run away from this one?
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Select all the checkboxes... Not more info on the NTSB report....but more info....
http://report.myairplane.com/index.php
 
bartmc said:
Select all the checkboxes... Not more info on the NTSB report....but more info....
http://report.myairplane.com/index.php
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Thanks... I think.

"Narrative: PILOT RAN OUT OF FUEL, DROPPED SKY DIVERS, DEAD STICKED INTO FIELD TO AVOID SKY DIVERS OVER AIRPORT."

"Narrative: LEFT MAIN GEAR DROPPED OFF ON LIFTOFF. CLIMBED, DROPPED JUMPERS BEFORE LANDING. TORQUE LINK BOLT LOST. WORN OUT"

In addition to the crash NTSB investigated.

This just raises more questions... :(

Stupid skydivers. :D
 
livitup said:
I just found out about a plane on the market near me, but I haven't talked to the owner yet. I just googled the N-number, and I found this: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001214X40673&key=1... This report is pretty sparse, so I don't know what was repaired. I think the accident was too long ago to have all the information on-line. (Bonus points for anyone who can tell me how to get more information, besides asking the current owner.)
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Go to http://www.faa.gov/foia/ and place a request for the registration number.
 
livitup said:
...LEFT MAIN GEAR DROPPED OFF ON LIFTOFF. CLIMBED, DROPPED JUMPERS BEFORE LANDING. TORQUE LINK BOLT LOST. WORN OUT"...
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Let me see if I'm getting this straight: The left main gear fell off the airplane on take-off and before he could get around to crash landing he ran out of fuel?

Tell me it ain't so :no:
 
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