How many is too many?

bluesky74656

bluesky74656

Line Up and Wait
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Dec 31, 2005
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747
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Brecksville, OH
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Display name:
Todd Kooser
Today I had some free time and the weather was conducive to logging some approaches. I drew up a plan that involved 6 approaches at 6 different airports in the area, two ILSs followed by 3 VOR approaches in quick succession, then an ILS back into home base.

The first approach was definitely an exercise in knocking some rust off. I made the transition from cruise configuration to approach configuration too quickly and ended up ballooning a bit, then behind the plane trying to correct and get on the localizer and glide slope. I managed to catch up, and I'd call the approach acceptable but not great.

I cruised over to the second airport and my second ILS was better. I learned my lesson from the first approach and was a little more intentional about re-trimming and slowing up from cruise to approach, and because I was set up better I flew a better approach.

After the approach, the controllers asked what I wanted to do next. In that moment, after a full day of work, two approaches and 45 minutes in and out of IMC, the answer was not 3 VOR approaches in quick succession. So I told him I was ready to call it a day and head back to home base. The cruise back went well and the approach and circle-to-land at the end went well, which is to be expected at home base. After I landed and shut the plane down, I just sat there for a minute and was happy with my decision. I was a little hungry, a little tired, and definitely a bit mentally tapped out. Three more non-precision approaches to three different unfamiliar airports at that point would have been unpleasant at best, and downright dangerous at worst.

So my question for you is, how many approaches can you go out and do at one time? Can you go knock out all six with no problem? Do you prefer to split it up? Does how long it's been since you've done actual IMC make a difference?
 
I confess that I am a very newly instrument rated pilot and 3 approaches back to back is enough for me.
 
On a Cool morning after a good nights sleep, I can probably do six approaches ok, but I usually break it up into two sets of 3 anyway or 3 sets of 2.
On a Hot Afternoon/Evening, after a long day at work, 6 is probably not a good idea.

PaVe
IMSAFE

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
It depends on how busy NY approach is. Some days, my CFI and I would go up and knock out 6 approaches. Other days NY approach was too busy to work us in. I did a lot of approaches and holds in our Redbird sim.
 
bluesky74656 said:
Today I had some free time and the weather was conducive to logging some approaches. I drew up a plan that involved 6 approaches at 6 different airports in the area, two ILSs followed by 3 VOR approaches in quick succession, then an ILS back into home base.

The first approach was definitely an exercise in knocking some rust off. I made the transition from cruise configuration to approach configuration too quickly and ended up ballooning a bit, then behind the plane trying to correct and get on the localizer and glide slope. I managed to catch up, and I'd call the approach acceptable but not great.

I cruised over to the second airport and my second ILS was better. I learned my lesson from the first approach and was a little more intentional about re-trimming and slowing up from cruise to approach, and because I was set up better I flew a better approach.

After the approach, the controllers asked what I wanted to do next. In that moment, after a full day of work, two approaches and 45 minutes in and out of IMC, the answer was not 3 VOR approaches in quick succession. So I told him I was ready to call it a day and head back to home base. The cruise back went well and the approach and circle-to-land at the end went well, which is to be expected at home base. After I landed and shut the plane down, I just sat there for a minute and was happy with my decision. I was a little hungry, a little tired, and definitely a bit mentally tapped out. Three more non-precision approaches to three different unfamiliar airports at that point would have been unpleasant at best, and downright dangerous at worst.

So my question for you is, how many approaches can you go out and do at one time? Can you go knock out all six with no problem? Do you prefer to split it up? Does how long it's been since you've done actual IMC make a difference?
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I was fortunate to have a lot of IMC in my instrument training. Post check ride I was anxious to get up and get into some IMC just to keep current and keep practicing.
About three weeks after my check ride I had some perfect weather was about 1000 overcast all over. I figured I’d go up and shoot a couple of approaches, like you I had visions of grandeur. It was very sobering to rotate in just a send into those clouds for the first time with nobody sitting next to me. It ended up being a little bit windier than forecasted and it took me a while to get to my initial approach fix for the first approach, I did that approach and then headed back to the home Field to do my second and final approach. It was mentally exhausting. A great experience which I’m glad I did. It was also a lot more bumpy than I anticipated. I don’t mind IMC and I don’t mind getting my head kicked in. I’m just not a huge fan of getting my head kicked in in IMC.
 
3-4 is a good days work in IFR training.
 
I did 9 in one day. 2 ILS, 2 one engine inop ILS, 3 VOR and 2 GPS.

I did the first 4 with the chief pilot as practice, as he was there to get checked out by our principle operations inspector (POI) for his check airman certification.

Then we did the checkride with the POI in the seat behind us. I screwed up the VOR approach so we did it again, for a total of 9 approaches.

The most approaches I have done while working was 5. But those were done after different flights, so it took all day, not one right after another.
 
Zeldman said:
I did 9 in one day. 2 ILS, 2 one engine inop ILS, 3 VOR and 2 GPS.

I did the first 4 with the chief pilot as practice, as he was there to get checked out by our principle operations inspector (POI) for his check airman certification.

Then we did the checkride with the POI in the seat behind us. I screwed up the VOR approach so we did it again, for a total of 9 approaches.

The most approaches I have done while working was 5. But those were done after different flights, so it took all day, not one right after another.
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mind.jpg
 
I was safety pilot for a friend who tried that. After all that for the last approach to our home airport I had to take the wheel from him. "I have the airplane". Boy did he blow it. He was just too tired.
 
When I did my IFR cross county I did 3 at different airports without a problem but I notice when I do 3 in a row, they get exhausting. If I'm just doing approaches, I'd say 3 or 4. If it's after work, 2 or 3 max.
 
I have done 6 approaches for currency in a single flight - but not in actual, that was with a safety pilot. Most recently this summer, in fact (actually 5 loggable, since I broke the first one off early due to ear block). In actual, I think the most I've done is 3. Could I do 6? Undoubtedly, but I'd rather not push it too much in actual conditions, since you can't just take off the hood.

The other problem is that around here, you're lucky if conditions don't "deteriorate" to VFR before you're ready. IFR conditions in these parts are either fleeting, or so low you haven't a chance of getting back in. (and that's during the summer)
 
One evening I was returning back from central NC to northern Virginia. It was dark and hazy, yet VFR. I figured this was good IFR practice time. I did six approaches at three different airports on the way back up. I like to repeat each approach once hand flying and once with my autopilot. Get good service from ATC that late as well, not much other traffic.
 
flyingron said:
One evening I was returning back from central NC to northern Virginia. It was dark and hazy, yet VFR. I figured this was good IFR practice time. I did six approaches at three different airports on the way back up. I like to repeat each approach once hand flying and once with my autopilot. Get good service from ATC that late as well, not much other traffic.
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I've never flown a loggable approach in VFR (instrument) conditions... and generally would avoid it unless I had someone with me to look out for traffic, especially near the field.
 
Whenever I do my currency with a safety pilot, I always blast out 6 approaches in 1 flight. Try to get 2 ILS and the other 4 will be non-precision of some sort. Looking back at my logbook, the flights average about 1.6 - 1.8 hours. But I also live in a relatively saturated area with IAP-airports. Set it up right, and you shouldn't be fatigued. If you're fatigued you're probably doing something wrong. Just set it up so there's enough to time to "reset" your brain, but not so much space between airports that it ends up being a 3 hour flight.
 
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I've knocked out 6 and a hold multiple times. Typically I'll do 3 or 4 as I need 2 or 3 for currency. Sometimes I go through stretches where I depart in IMC and arrive in VMC; dang it, that's not helping the paper-work currency! Might be helpful for flying in IMC though.

There are a lot of airports on the north side of Atlanta, so I can typically get in quite a few. Flying a SR22 or Baron also helps me get between going missed and the next approach quickly too.
 
EdFred said:
Whenever I do my currency with a safety pilot, I always blast out 6 approaches in 1 flight. Try to get 2 ILS and the other 4 will be non-precision of some sort. Looking back at my logbook, the flights average about 1.6 - 1.8 hours. But I also live in a relatively saturated area with IAP-airports. Set it up right, and you shouldn't be fatigued. If you're fatigued you're probably doing something wrong. Just set it up so there's enough to time to "reset" your brain, but not so much space between airports that it ends up being a 3 hour flight.
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Hereabouts, that's the hard part. The best option seems to be to fly most of my approaches at Burlington and Plattsburgh, then one or two back at home base. But it's still a good 20 minute flight from Montpelier where I'm hangared, to the Champlain Valley, and even KBTV and KPBG are a good 10 minutes apart. Could be done much more quickly back in MI, that's for sure.
 
azure said:
I've never flown a loggable approach in VFR (instrument) conditions... and generally would avoid it unless I had someone with me to look out for traffic, especially near the field.
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So do you bring safety pilots along when you're not logging approaches? Any time the weather is legal VFR you need to be watching for traffic. What does logging have to do with it?
 
azure said:
Hereabouts, that's the hard part. The best option seems to be to fly most of my approaches at Burlington and Plattsburgh, then one or two back at home base. But it's still a good 20 minute flight from Montpelier where I'm hangared, to the Champlain Valley, and even KBTV and KPBG are a good 10 minutes apart. Could be done much more quickly back in MI, that's for sure.
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You don't have to fly the entire flight under the hood though. Just the approaches and HITS.
 
flyingron said:
So do you bring safety pilots along when you're not logging approaches? Any time the weather is legal VFR you need to be watching for traffic. What does logging have to do with it?
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Yes, if it's just for proficiency, that's one thing. I thought you meant that you did a currency run (without a safety pilot?) in VFR instrument conditions, since you said you hammered out 6 approaches. That's (obviously) when it would have to be loggable.

The other problem I see is that even if it's hazy, if it's VFR then you are going to have visual references as you get low and close to the field. Of course, it depends on the approach, and the MDA/DA.
 
EdFred said:
You don't have to fly the entire flight under the hood though. Just the approaches and HITS.
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Of course. Just saying that I've never done a currency run here in less than 2 hours, because of the geography.
 
azure said:
The other problem I see is that even if it's hazy, if it's VFR then you are going to have visual references as you get low and close to the field. Of course, it depends on the approach, and the MDA/DA.
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And your point is? First, you denigrate me for allegedly doing something you perceive to be unsafe, now you're arguing whether it meets the statutory definition of instrument conditions? Did you have a point, or did you just come to randomly attack me?
 
flyingron said:
And your point is? First, you denigrate me for allegedly doing something you perceive to be unsafe, now you're arguing whether it meets the statutory definition of instrument conditions? Did you have a point, or did you just come to randomly attack me?
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Attack you? Holy smokes, that was the farthest thing from my mind!

I'm just trying to get an idea of how that could work (flying approaches in VFR actual conditions)... I can see it possibly working at altitude for proficiency, not so much for currency unless you have a safety pilot.

My aim was discussion... perhaps to learn something, perhaps just to get a clearer idea of what you meant. Not an attack, not denigration, not even remotely. Sorry you took it that way.
 
azure said:
Attack you? Holy smokes, that was the farthest thing from my mind!

I'm just trying to get an idea of how that could work (flying approaches in VFR actual conditions)... I can see it possibly working at altitude for proficiency, not so much for currency unless you have a safety pilot.

My aim was discussion... perhaps to learn something, perhaps just to get a clearer idea of what you meant. Not an attack, not denigration, not even remotely. Sorry you took it that way.
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Don’t tell him to have a beer either. He’ll get triggered.
 
azure said:
Of course. Just saying that I've never done a currency run here in less than 2 hours, because of the geography.
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Oh, yeah. It would be like trying to get current in the UP. End up flying 6 hours to do 6 approaches at 6 airports. :D
 
EdFred said:
Whenever I do my currency with a safety pilot, I always blast out 6 approaches in 1 flight. Try to get 2 ILS and the other 4 will be non-precision of some sort. Looking back at my logbook, the flights average about 1.6 - 1.8 hours. But I also live in a relatively saturated area with IAP-airports. Set it up right, and you shouldn't be fatigued. If you're fatigued you're probably doing something wrong. Just set it up so there's enough to time to "reset" your brain, but not so much space between airports that it ends up being a 3 hour flight.
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VMC with a safety pilot I don’t think it would have been a problem. IMC with an IFR rated safety pilot I probably would have pressed on, knowing the safety pilot was my “out” making sure things didn’t get too out of hand.

What really stopped me we’re the fact that the next two approaches started and ended at the same fix, so I would have no time between them unless I chose to hold in IMC, and then the one after that was at another VOR only about 5 minutes away. Also, the area the VOR approaches were in was the lowest weather in the area, and actually breaking out on the approach wasn’t a sure thing. Finally, if I did get mentally saturated, I didn’t have a good out. No safety pilot to help keep and eye on things, and not sure VFR to descend into.
 
EdFred said:
Oh, yeah. It would be like trying to get current in the UP. End up flying 6 hours to do 6 approaches at 6 airports. :D
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Heh. It's not QUITE that bad out here. Maybe in parts of ME.

My most recent currency run I logged 2.5 hours for the 5 completed + 1 aborted approach. I was then current because I did one approach with a CFI as part of my BFR the month before, and I flew one more solo in rapidly "deteriorating" IFR conditions a couple of weeks later. 2.5 hours is about what it takes here for 6HITs.
 
bluesky74656 said:
VMC with a safety pilot I don’t think it would have been a problem. IMC with an IFR rated safety pilot I probably would have pressed on, knowing the safety pilot was my “out” making sure things didn’t get too out of hand.

What really stopped me we’re the fact that the next two approaches started and ended at the same fix, so I would have no time between them unless I chose to hold in IMC, and then the one after that was at another VOR only about 5 minutes away. Also, the area the VOR approaches were in was the lowest weather in the area, and actually breaking out on the approach wasn’t a sure thing. Finally, if I did get mentally saturated, I didn’t have a good out. No safety pilot to help keep and eye on things, and not sure VFR to descend into.
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Oh yeah that sounds like a bit of saturation.
 
2 to 3 is perfect.
I see a lot of pilots trying to knock out thier 6 just as the 6 months is up. I find that pointless. I personally try to go up once a month and so 2 or 3 at different airports I normally don’t fly in to.
 
EdFred said:
Set it up right, and you shouldn't be fatigued.
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I agree that proper planning is pretty important if you want to try to shoot 6 or more at once and I would add that own nav entering an iaf on a hold procedure turn can often expedite things.

If I am going up for currency, I like to fly to a lower volume class Delta airport that has 6 different runways and 11 different approaches. It is only about 15 minutes from where I am currently hangared. If they aren't too busy, and the winds are relativity light, when coming in from the southwest, I will start with the rnav 4 with vectors, follow that with the ILS 13 approach, then the loc bc 31 approach, than an rnav 17, followed by a hold back at the vor and than a vor 4 approach. If allowed to do on my on navigation, except for the first one with vectors, they can all be done in about 1.5 hours or sometimes less. I could finish with an rnav 22 approach, land and then go in and eat a steak at the airport restaurant if so inclined, or I could just head back to my airport and shoot the rnav 18 or the rnav 36. I have my 6 approaches and a hold often in less than 2 hours, and that included the 30 minute travel time. It is a pretty sweet area that I live in, and I realize that not everyone has close access to a location that is so convenient. I like the intense workout that it gives me mentally because it really makes me concentrate, and even in vfr conditions with the glasses, it can simulate a certain sense of "hecticness" that you might feel in real imc. At the same time, it isn't such a long time that it exhausts me. I realize i haven't mentioned the name of the airport(s). Are there very many out there that might care to venture where I am talking about? Great steak house restaurant on the field by the way if you are in the area!
 
azure said:
Could I do 6? Undoubtedly, but I'd rather not push it too much in actual conditions, since you can't just take off the hood.
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Within about a year or so of getting my IFR ticket, I flew the family to Colorado. The plan was to get into the Arkansas River valley and camp for a few days, and then fly up to Leadville CO and get my highest airport certificate. We got to Pueblo and the mountains to the west were obscured. I had just flown for about 45 minutes in unforecasted IMC, (no autopilot) The ceiling at Pueblo was 400 ft. We landed, ate lunch, and then sat in the airport for awhile. The forecast was for clearing eventually, but not for 3 or 4 hours. I decided that this would be a good time to get a lot of really good actually time. I went up by myself and shot 5 more approaches to the airport in about 2 hours. I was IMC for 1.5 hours and on a couple of the approaches never got out of the soup. At the end, I did a couple of holding patterns, and finally realized how seriously fatigued I was. Without an autopilot, it completely wore me out. The currency requirements back then were 6 hours actual or simulated and 6 approaches. That is why I wanted to get the logable time. I was much younger then, but I realized that I had reached my limit. Since then I have done 6 approaches for currency without an autopilot in IMC but it was a 1000 foot layer, so you got relief on both sides, above and below. I never tried that again. It was really just too much.
 
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I did a test session once that included three of each approach at four airports. The purpose was to check the nav database for errors and omissions.

Each approach had to be flown using two different techniques, coupled and uncoupled. Total 48 approaches.

Did it in four sessions, 12 each over two days. I didn't want to see a cockpit for a few days after!
 
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