How long should it take to get a PPL?

John Baker said:
I served with the 101st 1959 to through 1963, that was before an acronym called FIST was around. What is FIST?

In those days, the elite troops were either Ranger qualified or Recondo. Special Forces were just getting off the ground down at Benning or Brag, I can't remember which.

John
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FIST = Fire Support Team, usually made up of Forward Observers and a LT fire control officer.
 
dmccormack said:
FIST = Fire Support Team, usually made up of Forward Observers and a LT fire control officer.
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In those days, there was no team, the FOs either worked alone on their own OPs, or with the company commander or platoon leaders. Most of the time we would be given a map coordinates of where they wanted us to be and that was it. Every now and then I would be given a radio operator, most of the time, I schlepped my own.

John
 
John Baker said:
In those days, there was no team, the FOs either worked alone on their own OPs, or with the company commander or platoon leaders. Most of the time we would be given a map coordinates of where they wanted us to be and that was it. Every now and then I would be given a radio operator, most of the time, I schlepped my own.

John
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Yeah, SOP now is a 2 man team -- makes sense, one security, one observing. Sorta like snipers with indirect fire.

:D
 
John Baker said:
I had to have a cataract operation on my one eye to meet the vision requirements. It is now 20-15 corrected. Very scary operation when you only have the one eye.
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That, and your story in general, illustrates very well which is the more important question: "How long will it take, and how much $$?", or "What is this privilege worth to me?" :D
 
I received this e-mail from my instructor when I got home tonight.
==============================================================


John,



During our meeting, Sunday 11/8/2009, you expressed reservations concerning your motivation and questioned your ability to continue with your Private Pilot License (PPL) flight training. You asked and preferred that I choose an examiner that is not outside of the local area and to make an appointment for you for the PPL check ride. After giving some thought to what you asked, at this point, I made an inquiry as to an examiner’s availability but will not make a definite appointment for you. The reason is that unforeseen events could affect your preparation for a pre-scheduled check ride. And testing protocol does require that an applicant for a FAA flight check must be fully prepared beforehand prior to scheduling for any flight check. The examiner needs only a few days. I don't think he is very busy at the present time.

Therefore, and unless you are able to continue with your preparation for the PPL and demonstrate improvement in being consistent in meeting the Practical Test Standards (PTS) , I will not be requesting a firm date with an examiner.

==============================================================================

I guess I have some decision making to do. I don't know why this font got so small, or how to change it.


John
 
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This question and all answers should be put into an (the?) archive and referenced as needed.

There is no definite answer. And don't believe everything/anything anyone tells you - that you MUST solo at this point, that you MUST take your checkride at this point, that you MUST.....well, you get the idea.

Everything depends on the individual. Anyone else's metrics/time/scores/grades, etc. have absolutely no relevance to you when it comes to reaching goals in flying.

Unless, of course, you're in the military in the IPT (initial pilot training) program which is very rigorous and very detailed and designed to see who can or can't make it thru.
 
Following on Aunt Peggy's history...the solo for me was a non-event. Everyone wanted to make a big deal of it, but I was so completely aggravated with the school and the CFIs that my only comment was that I made it only thru stubborness and the checkbook, and not thru any encouragement on the part of the school or the CFIs.

I started on the instrument, 4 CFIIs in 4 months - they kept leaving town or quitting instructing. Finally got one that lasted more than a week. Unfortunately, he was another one that wouldn't commit to the next lesson schedule. Everytime I tried to set up a schedule, he conveniently forgot his calendar....A few months later I started with another CFII, a very good one, in fact. This CFII informed me I should work with other students and share time because what I really needed was practice, and not spend money with the CFII. Unfortunately, the only students around here that can fly on my schedule want to fly the 172 with the G1000 and not my airplane with the steam gages.

No, I haven't finished. In fact, it's been more than a year since I gave up in disgust. The entire aviation training concept is horrendously flawed, and there's no motivation to fix it.

What I want in training:
1. an instructor that will agree to a schedule (weather and airplane, permitting) more than a couple days in advance.
2. an instructor that will follow an outline/syllabus and work with me, who let's me know what we will be doing so I can prepare and plan
3. an instructor that remembers that I'm first a customer, and second a student. I don't need an instructor that wants to show off. Had one of those for all of 30 minutes. As soon as he started showing me the power-off at mid-field commercial maneuver when we're supposed to be on an instrument lesson, I landed the airplane and invited him to get out. Hey, at least I landed first!
4. an instructor that can identify problems and help resolve them

[end of rant]
 
John Baker said:
I received this e-mail from my instructor when I got home tonight.
==============================================================


John,



During our meeting, Sunday 11/8/2009, you expressed reservations concerning your motivation and questioned your ability to continue with your Private Pilot License (PPL) flight training. You asked and preferred that I choose an examiner that is not outside of the local area and to make an appointment for you for the PPL check ride. After giving some thought to what you asked, at this point, I made an inquiry as to an examiner’s availability but will not make a definite appointment for you. The reason is that unforeseen events could affect your preparation for a pre-scheduled check ride. And testing protocol does require that an applicant for a FAA flight check must be fully prepared beforehand prior to scheduling for any flight check. The examiner needs only a few days. I don't think he is very busy at the present time.

Therefore, and unless you are able to continue with your preparation for the PPL and demonstrate improvement in being consistent in meeting the Practical Test Standards (PTS) , I will not be requesting a firm date with an examiner.

==============================================================================
Y'know, if I got a letter like that, I'd make an appointment with the owner of the school and the CFI and tell them what to do with the letter. That is the most insulting letter from someone who is the one who (allegedly) taught you this stuff. If you're not ready, why not? What is the CFI doing wrong that you're not ready?

Ah...wait...that might be the issue. A question to pose to the CFI and/or the chief pilot --- how many students over the past 6 months have they sent to checkride and how many have passed?

Question - have you taken a pre-checkride lesson with another instructor? That's often the case, at least at every school I'm familiar with...what was their evaluation?
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The reason is that unforeseen events could affect your preparation for a pre-scheduled check ride.
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 :rofl:
Like what, you could get hit by a meteorite, abducted by space aliens, be blown away by a misguided Kansas tornado into the Land of Oz?:yikes:

So what? My checkride was scheduled for September 12, 2001. Unforeseen events caused the FAA to cancel every ******* flight in the country. A collapsed nosegear caused another checkride to be cancelled. We all live in the real world where the unforeseeable is unforeseen.

Tell him to schedule the checkride. Get some rest the night before, eat a good meal, and wash your hands of the CFI.
 
John Baker said:
I don't know why this font got so small, or how to change it.
John
Click to expand...
1) Go to advanced mode.
2) Select the text you want to change.
3) In the drop-down option boxes under the word "Message:", select "Verdana" and "2".
 
Sounds like your instructor is a lemon.

That eMail is poorly written from an instructor's point of view. He should be having this conversation with you in person if he really thinks it's an issue.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Sounds like your instructor is a lemon.

That eMail is poorly written from an instructor's point of view. He should be having this conversation with you in person if he really thinks it's an issue.
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Exactly!

This is email tough guy. I don't take that #$#@ at work and sure enough wouldn't accept that tone from a person I'm paying.

:mad3:
 
John Baker said:
I received this e-mail from my instructor when I got home tonight.
==============================================================


John,



During our meeting, Sunday 11/8/2009, you expressed reservations concerning your motivation and questioned your ability to continue with your Private Pilot License (PPL) flight training. You asked and preferred that I choose an examiner that is not outside of the local area and to make an appointment for you for the PPL check ride. After giving some thought to what you asked, at this point, I made an inquiry as to an examiner’s availability but will not make a definite appointment for you. The reason is that unforeseen events could affect your preparation for a pre-scheduled check ride. And testing protocol does require that an applicant for a FAA flight check must be fully prepared beforehand prior to scheduling for any flight check. The examiner needs only a few days. I don't think he is very busy at the present time.

Therefore, and unless you are able to continue with your preparation for the PPL and demonstrate improvement in being consistent in meeting the Practical Test Standards (PTS) , I will not be requesting a firm date with an examiner.
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I think you need to ask your CFI to list specifically the tasks in which he feels you don't meet the standards of the PTS and what you can do to improve. Then you've got to decide whether you agree with him or not. If you don't agree then you should probably find another CFI, preferably at a different school since it seems as if you have not had much success with this school. Maybe you could look up the guy Ron recommended. Even if he can't do it himself he might have other suggestions.
 
I know most people do not read every post in a long thread. I know I don't, unless, like this one, it is one that is of great interest to me. My post # 23 on this thread gives somewhat of an outline on my flying history. I have not been in a school for several years. I am not an advocate of flight schools at all after my experience.

John
 
From a regulatory standpoint, if your instructor already signed the endorsement, he's already certified that you're ready for the test. If he now says in writing that you're not ready, then he is admitting to violating several FAR's by signing the endorsement when you weren't ready. Also, you don't need your instructor to make the appointment. You can call any examiner you choose, and present the 8710-1 which the instructor has already signed and take the test.

BTW, if the instructor has not yet signed the 8710-1, but has signed your logbook, and now refuses to sign the 8710-1, then the instructor is again admitting to violating several FAR's by having signed the practical test endorsement in your logbook when you were not actually ready for the practical test.

All in all, I agree with Murphey that a meeting with the instructor and flight school management is in order, although I don't think I'd come in with as adversarial attitude as Murph hinted she'd take.
 
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Ron Levy said:
All in all, I agree with Murphey that a meeting with the instructor and flight school management is in order, although I don't think I'd come in with as adversarial attitude as Murph hinted he'd take.
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Pssst Ron, Murph is a she. :)
 
I am not affiliated with a school, it is between me and my instructor. He has me pretty much convinced I can not pass a check ride. If I stay with him, that is probably a fact.

I have been stewing about this for the last few days. I have never in my life not accomplished what I set out to do. I don't even know how to quit.

No matter what he has signed me off on, which includes the 8710-1, I refuse to do anything underhanded or unethical. I will not go behind his back and just take the test.

I guess my only real option is to find an instructor who can get me inspired enough to finish this. Right now, all I feel is defeated.

I never even went to the airport today, my day off.

John
 
Ron Levy said:
From a regulatory standpoint, if your instructor already signed the endorsement, he's already certified that you're ready for the test. If he now says in writing that you're not ready, then he is admitting to violating several FAR's by signing the endorsement when you weren't ready. Also, you don't need your instructor to make the appointment. You can call any examiner you choose, and present the 8710-1 which the instructor has already signed and take the test.

BTW, if the instructor has not yet signed the 8710-1, but has signed your logbook, and now refuses to sign the 8710-1, then the instructor is again admitting to violating several FAR's by having signed the practical test endorsement in your logbook when you were not actually ready for the practical test.
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An interesting question is raised here -- What if there is a lapse between the endorsement and the 8710/ IACRA entry of the Practical?

If time passes and a subsequent flight evidences the student is no longer flying at the required level of proficiency -- what then?
 
John Baker said:
I am not affiliated with a school, it is between me and my instructor. He has me pretty much convinced I can not pass a check ride. If I stay with him, that is probably a fact.

I have been stewing about this for the last few days. I have never in my life not accomplished what I set out to do. I don't even know how to quit.

No matter what he has signed me off on, which includes the 8710-1, I refuse to do anything underhanded or unethical. I will not go behind his back and just take the test.

I guess my only real option is to find an instructor who can get me inspired enough to finish this. Right now, all I feel is defeated.

I never even went to the airport today, my day off.

John
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If you have to be inspired from the outside in, give it up.

:blush:
 
dmccormack said:
An interesting question is raised here -- What if there is a lapse between the endorsement and the 8710/ IACRA entry of the Practical?
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The endorsement is valid for two months after the last 3 hours of test prep training. Sign wisely.
If time passes and a subsequent flight evidences the student is no longer flying at the required level of proficiency -- what then?
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Then the instructor has the option of cancelling the endorsement in the trainee's logbook.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Harsh.
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But very true. I think after more than five years, and being told I am just about ready more times than I can remember. Having an appointment for the check ride, doing all the work and sweating it out , only to have the examiner be a no show with a very thin, but legally valid, excuse for not wanting to show that day.

Continuing on with my training then told I am not ready for the test. Pouring way too much money into what amounts to little more than a hobby, can get a little on the frustrating side.

My over all view of aviation has been greatly diminished as a result of all this "training". There is nothing like spending a few hundred dollars with someone making notes about your every mistake sitting beside you. What fun.

The "fun" is no longer there, it is more of a vendetta at this point. I can honestly say that I have never worked so hard, spent and risked so much, to accomplish so little, in my life.

I have decided that I am indeed burned out and I must give this a rest for a while. I have not been paying enough attention to my business, and it is showing big time on my balance sheet.

If I was back east or in the Midwest somewhere, nature would give me the rest, but this is San Diego, the sun is always shining.

I will concentrate on building my business back up, fly one or two days a week, and forget about trying to take a check ride, see if I can't find some fun in it somewhere.

John's statement "If you have to be inspired from the outside in, give it up." is very valid. So that is what I intend to do.

AOPA can not understand why more people do not want to learn to fly. Perhaps if during some of that CFI training and testing, the potential CFIs would be given a brief class on motivation of students, it might help.

Perhaps if aviation as an industry was not so money hungry, it might help. A missing equipment list that cost me my check ride cost $1,450.00 to replace. Avionics that are obsolete, pulled from wrecks, are resold in the thousands of dollars. Everyone in this industry has their hands out.

A new pilot or student pilot is raw meat for this industry, it feels like your in the midst of a feeding frenzy when you pull out your wallet.

I'm tired, I gotta go to work.

John
 
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John Baker said:
But very true. I think after more than five years, and being told I am just about ready more times than I can remember. Having an appointment for the check ride, doing all the work and sweating it out , only to have the examiner be a no show with a very thin, but legally valid, excuse for not wanting to show that day.

Continuing on with my training then told I am not ready for the test. Pouring way too much money into what amounts to little more than a hobby, can get a little on the frustrating side.

My over all view of aviation has been greatly diminished as a result of all this "training". There is nothing like spending a few hundred dollars with someone making notes about your every mistake sitting beside you. What fun.

The "fun" is no longer there, it is more of a vendetta at this point. I can honestly say that I have never worked so hard, spent and risked so much, to accomplish so little, in my life.
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Au contraire, I think you have learned a ton about life and yourself, you're too engrossed in the moment to realize it. We all pay, one way or another, for our schooling. :)

I have decided that I am indeed burned out and I must give this a rest for a while. I have not been paying enough attention to my business, and it is showing big time on my balance sheet.
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Another lesson learned, the unseen costs of aviation, been there, done that, quit that.

John's statement "If you have to be inspired from the outside in, give it up." is very valid. So that is what I intend to do.
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This John very wise, I must meet him...oh, you mean me!

:blush:

AOPA can not understand why more people do not want to learn to fly. Perhaps if during some of that CFI taring and testing, the potential CFIs would be given a brief class on motivation of students, it might help.

Perhaps if aviation as an industry was not so money hungry, it might help. A missing equipment list that cost me my check ride cost $1,450.00 to replace. Avionics that are obsolete, pulled from wrecks, are resold in the thousands of dollars. Everyone in this industry has their hands out.

A new pilot or student pilot is raw meat for this industry, it feels like your in the midst of a feeding frenzy when you pull out you wallet.
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Especially true now with the decline in new students, rising costs and little hope of turning this scenario around.

<sigh>

I'm tired, I gotta go to work.

John
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Best of luck to you. :yesnod:
 
John, you made your choice so I won't address that. I have to say a lot of what you have posted leaves me confused. You show up for the check ride but the DPE does not so that means you have to go back and train more? That makes no sense. Not saying your not telling it like it is but that it makes no sense. Did you say you spent $100K on your PPL thats outrageous unless it includes the purchase of the plane.

I have one question how old is your CFI?

If you decided to take it back up again get a CFI by referral, I think Ron gave you a name. There are vipers out there in aviation but also a LOT of good folks. I can think of a LOT of great teachers right here on this board.

Best of Luck.
 
John Baker said:
The "fun" is no longer there, it is more of a vendetta at this point.
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If so, I think you are making the right decision.

John Baker said:
I can honestly say that I have never worked so hard, spent and risked so much, to accomplish so little, in my life.
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You've actually accomplished quite a bit. I know that some people put a a lot of emphasis on that piece of plastic you may or may not get in the end and forget to smell the roses.

John Baker said:
I will concentrate on building my business back up, fly one or two days a week, and forget about trying to take a check ride, see if I can't find some fun in it somewhere.
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I think that's a great idea. Maybe with some of the pressure off you will be able to find some enjoyment again.

John Baker said:
John's statement "If you have to be inspired from the outside in, give it up." is very valid. So that is what intend to do.
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Were you waiting for someone here to say that to validate what you were feeling?

John Baker said:
AOPA can not understand why more people do not want to learn to fly. Perhaps if during some of that CFI training and testing, the potential CFIs would be given a brief class on motivation of students, it might help.
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I agree and I think the focus is much more on technical knowledge than teaching knowledge. Some of this can be taught but a lot has to do with personality. Some people are natural teachers and some are not. You can be a great pilot but a terrible teacher. There's also the meshing of personalities. Some people are like oil and water. Just because one student does well with a particular instructor does not mean that someone else will.

Sorry you had such a bad experience but hopefully things will look up for you after taking a break.
 
John Baker said:
If you can only average about two days a week flying time, how long should it take to get a PPL?
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As long as (but no longer than) necessary. There's too much focus on time, when so many other factors are at play.

What do you guys think the average should be?
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I think the average should be, uhhhhh... Considered completely irrelevant. :yes::

At what point should you just decide you don't have what it takes to accomplish the task?
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What Ron said: When at least two instructors, preferably more, tell you that there's no way you're ever going to finish.

How much money should you reasonably expect to spend to become a private pilot?
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More than you planned on, or "if you have to ask..."

I wanted to fly long before I could afford to fly. I spent a lot of time reading about flying: Magazines, Web sites, and the old AOPA "Yellow board" where many of us from this board used to hang out. I learned a lot of things from instructors like Ron and from other students who were student pilots at the time. By the time I got in an airplane, there weren't a whole lot of surprises.

I had a difficult schedule: I was only home about every other weekend. So, when I got home, I flew like mad. For example, one weekend I did a dual flight Friday afternoon, first solo Saturday morning, first dual cross country Saturday afternoon, first solo cross country Sunday. The next weekend I was home, it was a solo cross country Saturday morning, long solo XC Saturday afternoon, ALL of my night training Saturday night, and a "just for fun" solo XC to visit a friend on Sunday. One thing that helped immensely with a schedule like this was that I went to the airport every single time I had a lesson scheduled, and flew some actual IMC (I had about 2.4 actual prior to getting my private). It was GREAT training. There were a couple of instances where we just did some ground as well, but there is no reason to not go to the airport and use that time you have scheduled. Fly when you can, do ground when you can't.

I ended up being able to do my Private in 42.6 hours and just a hair under 3 months, and spend less than $4,000 all-inclusive (2003, rental 172 was $69/hr and CFI was $30/hr, many of my materials were gifts, and I used a $50 headset). I didn't do the same things I described above (other than flying every chance I got) for the instrument rating, and when I finally took the IR checkride I had around 100 hours of instrument time and over 250 hours total time (which of course included plenty of fun flying as well). No idea what I spent on the IR, but I don't particularly care any more.

Now John, so far the "you" has been general, I've mostly posted this for the benefit of the next person who searches for this topic. For you specifically, it sounds like you still haven't found the right instructor. I would check out the guy Ron suggested, and if you don't click with him he'll hopefully know someone else with lots of teaching experience. (The teaching experience, not the flying experience, is the most important thing.)

Also, if your CFI signed you off for the checkride - GO take the checkride! If he signed you off, then he has certified that you are ready, no matter what his e-mails say. Go up and get some solo practice time in just to keep yourself sharp. Honestly evaluate yourself, but don't beat yourself up - Nobody flies perfect, and it's *judgement* that is the most important thing in flying. If you get a hair outside of PTS standards but you recognize it, correct it, and make safe decisions, you will probably still walk away from the checkride with a new certificate in your pocket.

Whatever you do, DON'T walk away for a couple of months like it sounds like you're saying you will. If you really are close, and you must be if you got a signoff, all that another break will accomplish is to allow you to get rusty and make this take that much longer. If you don't want to take the checkride now, you should at least keep flying twice a week to maintain the skills you have, and then maybe take a few days to fly a bunch to polish things up and take the ride when you feel you're ready.

Whatever you do, I wish you success. :yes:
 
John Baker said:
Isn't that what we are all doing on these various Internet forums, looking for validation of our way of thinking?
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I don't know about everyone, but it seems that way when people post looking for advice on problems of more of a personal than a technical nature. I think it's sometimes easier to take the step you were tending towards anyway when you see your own opinion in black and white from somebody else, even if the majority of the advice went the other way.
 
AdamZ said:
John, you made your choice so I won't address that. I have to say a lot of what you have posted leaves me confused. You show up for the check ride but the DPE does not so that means you have to go back and train more? That makes no sense. Not saying your not telling it like it is but that it makes no sense. Did you say you spent $100K on your PPL thats outrageous unless it includes the purchase of the plane.

I have one question how old is your CFI?

If you decided to take it back up again get a CFI by referral, I think Ron gave you a name. There are vipers out there in aviation but also a LOT of good folks. I can think of a LOT of great teachers right here on this board.

Best of Luck.
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Getting a new equipment list took a little over six weeks from Piper Aircraft. Then my mechanics had to go over it item by item and do a new weight and balance. I had to keep flying, and of course, training, during that time.

Flight school, $24,000.00 to get me flying the pattern solo. That is all they would let me do, for over a year after I had soloed. Every CFI wanted to start at the beginning. "This thing here is called a 'propeller", it is an airfoil. Those big things sticking out are called 'wings", they are also airfoils, OK lets see if you can taxi the plane, yea yea, I know you have fifty hours, but I haven't flown with you." ( I'm being facetious )

The cost of the airplane. Flight instructors. Repeated hospital level medical tests ordered by the FAA, even though their doctor and my doctor told them I was fine to fly. Cataract operation on my one and only eye. Flight instructors, fuel, upkeep & repairs. Replacing avionics, did I mention flight instructors?

He is 74 but I don't see what that has to do with anything. He has just about every rating you can get except for astronaut, he might even have that for all I know. He has forgotten more about flying, and yet knows more than most people will ever learn in a career. His mind is sharper than mine will ever be. While I'm working it out on the E-6B, he already has the answer in his head, and I am no slouch on the E-6B. I respect him highly, except he just can't seem to get me to flying where he thinks I should be.

John
 
My point in asking how old he is was sometimes the younger CFIs can be little more rushed and impatient than the older guys.

I can understand why someone would want to review with you if they never flew with you but there has got to be a limit.

Frankely the best advise I can give you Is to fly with one of the CFIs on this board I'd trust their opinion of where you need to be. Of course that poses geographic challanges. The other is to take charge of your instruction. I learned at a 141 school so the syllabus let me know how I was progressing.

I think you got hosed in some areas 24K to fly the patter solo and then they wouldn't let you out of the pattern thats crazy. I wish you the best of luck.
 
John Baker said:
If you can only average about two days a week flying time, how long should it take to get a PPL? What do you guys think the average should be?

At what point should you just decide you don't have what it takes to accomplish the task?

How much money should you reasonably expect to spend to become a private pilot?

John
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I flew 2-3 x a week.. over a 3 month period, of which 3 weeks in the middle of it I took off... 2 instructors, 1 at a time.

Solo'd at 17-18 hrs. (just couldn't "get" the flare til one day it clicked..)..

Signed off at 42 hrs.. PPL in hand at 45.

Not your typical PP ASEL student.
I self taught ground, passed my written before ever logging my first hour.
Grew up around it, Dad was an ATP MEL, Com Heli, ex army. My whole childhood was a series of discovery flights, but 10 years passed between his passing and my taking lessons.

I think if you haven't got your PPSEL by 85-90 recent hrs you need to seriously re-examine your goals and resources. It just may not be your gig.
 
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