How is this possible...

[Jay Honeck]

...in 2011?

http://www.journaltimes.com/news/national/us/article_06888f63-669f-5419-8f32-9ac477dbf262.html

How does a university professor and former state legislator "accidentally" stray into Mexican airspace?

I am far from the wealthiest pilot, but (counting the iPad) I've got THREE moving map GPS's on board when I fly, all of which clearly depict the border. Even without that advantage, it seems like you would have to be absolutely oblivious and have zero situational awareness in order to blunder across an international border.

Which begs the question...what really happened here?

 

[wabower]

How much nav equipment did he have in his plane? Do we know?

If he didn't have the fancy stuff that you have, the answer seems fairly obvious. He became engrossed in an ancillary activity and lost situational awareness. Get a rope.

...in 2011?

http://www.journaltimes.com/news/national/us/article_06888f63-669f-5419-8f32-9ac477dbf262.html

How does a university professor and former state legislator "accidentally" stray into Mexican airspace?

I am far from the wealthiest pilot, but (counting the iPad) I've got THREE moving map GPS's on board when I fly, all of which clearly depict the border. Even without that advantage, it seems like you would have to be absolutely oblivious and have zero situational awareness in order to blunder across an international border.

Which begs the question...what really happened here?

 

[Richard]

Get a rope.

You bet! Notice if you will the OP put this in the context of this present day (2011). Loss of SA resulting in crossing an international border at anytime pre-9/11 coulda' been gotten away with but not now. Thems the breaks. Get a rope, indeed.

The Hudson corridor is verboten cuz of one inept pilot. Should there now be a 50 nm buffer zone at the borders? Where does it stop? Should we expect to one day be like Japan where VFR flight is permitted only within the traffic pattern and only during daylight? Should GA be relegated to stories told by dear ol granpa as he recalls a day when~gasp!~pilots could actually fly across country without even talking to anyone? How many of these one time only guys can GA withstand? Get a rope...and the tallest tree.

 

[DutchessFlier]

"The Hudson corridor is verboten cuz of one inept pilot. "

Nope

We fly the Hudson corridor all the time, and can request the East River Northbound as well...pull out a NY TAC and you'll find the corridor and procedures clearly shown...

c'mon east and we'll fly the corridor anytime

 

[Henning]

Which begs the question...what really happened here?

Pretty simple, he's an old man and he was concentrating on the damage he was seeing on the ground and wasn't paying particular attention to his location.

The old man wasn't the problem, the reaction was the problem.

 

[Everskyward]

Pretty simple, he's an old man and he was concentrating on the damage he was seeing on the ground and wasn't paying particular attention to his location.

Plus, he could have been a she or young and it still is a very plausible scenario. They don't draw big lines on the border. Of course he should have been more careful but it isn't surprising to me, at all.

 

[Henning]

Plus, he could have been a she or young and it still is a very plausible scenario. They don't draw big lines on the border. Of course he should have been more careful but it isn't surprising to me, at all.

Sure, There's even pipeline that crosses the border. It would not have been a stretch for me to accidentally get on the wrong pipeline and fly across the border without realizing it.

 

[Mike Smith]

Now if the government would be this proactive when people strayed illegally across the border on the ground......but...oh nevermind........over reaction imho.

 

[roncachamp]

...in 2011?

http://www.journaltimes.com/news/national/us/article_06888f63-669f-5419-8f32-9ac477dbf262.html

How does a university professor and former state legislator "accidentally" stray into Mexican airspace?

I don't see the connection. Why would a university professor and former state legislator be any more or less likely to do this than would a butcher, baker, candlestick maker, etc.? Furthermore, the article doesn't say he strayed into Mexican airspace.

I am far from the wealthiest pilot, but (counting the iPad) I've got THREE moving map GPS's on board when I fly, all of which clearly depict the border. Even without that advantage, it seems like you would have to be absolutely oblivious and have zero situational awareness in order to blunder across an international border.

Because even if he had no GPS he should have seen that big honkin' dashed line painted on the border?

 

[Henning]

Because even if he had no GPS he should have seen that big honkin' dashed line painted on the border?

Well, depending on where along the boarder you are, it can be very obvious between "The Wall" and the river.... But he's an old guy and was engrossed with studying something. Big deal anyway. Also considering they knew who he was and knew he was there and dropped off radar, the helo may have been as much a safety run as a security one.

 

[Artiom]

Don't get what the problem here? The guy didn't realize he crossed the border and they send 2 F-16 to intercept him? It is not Iron Curtain. Did they suspect he is going to defect?

 

[cgarr]

There are approaches that have to be flown over Canada? is that any different?

 

[Bobcat1]

...in 2011?

http://www.journaltimes.com/news/national/us/article_06888f63-669f-5419-8f32-9ac477dbf262.html

How does a university professor and former state legislator "accidentally" stray into Mexican airspace?... Which begs the question...what really happened here?

When the story was originally filed yesterday, it stated that he was trying to impress a lady passenger. I see that it's been "updated" leaving out the lady in question.

I wonder if he got any last night?

 

[wabower]

This may help explain both the distraction and loss of situational awareness that were the primary causes of his border violation. Does the NTSB include "sniffing around" in their list of probable causes?

When the story was originally filed yesterday, it stated that he was trying to impress a lady passenger. I see that it's been "updated" leaving out the lady in question.

I wonder if he got any last night?

 

[spiderweb]

I don't see the connection. Why would a university professor and former state legislator be any more or less likely to do this than would a butcher, baker, candlestick maker, etc.?

OMG! You obviously have never met a candlestick maker! They are absolutely the most clueless pilots, ever!

 

[kkoran]

Professor? Former legislator? Jay, there have been multiple incidences of US military pilots accidentally crossing the border, even where it is defined by the Rio Grande.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Wow! You guys sure make it sound easy to be clueless when flying along an international border.

"Dum-de-dum-de-dum....garsh, look at all that FIRE down that-away! Huh-wha? Where is we agin? MEXICO? Garsh..."

I love the rationalizations. He's just "an old man"? We don't know what kind of navigational tools he had on board? He may have been distracted by a *gasp* WOMAN? WTF?

I mentioned that he was a university professor and former legislator because this presumably means that our wayward pilot has a bit more on the ball than your average Joe. Now that I think about those professions, you guys are probably right -- an entrepreneurial candlestick maker really would be head and shoulders above either one. They may even be able to read a MAP.

I still don't see how it's possible to blunder over an international border -- wouldn't that be paramount in your flight planning? -- but then, I don't understand the sad number of pilots who bust TFRs, either. Every time it happens, our reputation suffers a wee bit more, which can only hinder our efforts to keep the skies open and free for GA.

As for the absurd over-reaction to the alleged excursion, we can all agree -- scrambling two F-16s is as close to crazy as it gets. After all -- wasn't he LEAVING the U.S.? If anyone was going to scramble fighters, it should have been the Mexican Air Force.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Wow! You guys sure make it sound easy to be clueless when flying along an international border.

Many borders are just an arbitrary line with no natural feature to denote them. That makes it easy to miss them.

I still don't see how it's possible to blunder over an international border -- wouldn't that be paramount in your flight planning? -- but then, I don't understand the sad number of pilots who bust TFRs, either. Every time it happens, our reputation suffers a wee bit more, which can only hinder our efforts to keep the skies open and free for GA.

It can be quite easy to cross a border. The DC FRZ (or whatever they call it now) is amazingly easy to blunder into on the western side. The eastern side is easier to avoid- just stay east of the Chesapeake Bay. The difference is some sort of landmark. Henning indicated the international boundary isn't always clear.

As for the absurd over-reaction to the alleged excursion, we can all agree -- scrambling two F-16s is as close to crazy as it gets. After all -- wasn't he LEAVING the U.S.? If anyone was going to scramble fighters, it should have been the Mexican Air Force.

No disagreement here, unless we thought he was running guns. The Mexicans have asked our govenrment to do something about the gun runners.

 

[Henning]

There are approaches that have to be flown over Canada? is that any different?

Yeah, there's no Mexican border there...

 

[Everskyward]

I mentioned that he was a university professor and former legislator because this presumably means that our wayward pilot has a bit more on the ball than your average Joe.

Personally I don't think knowledge in either of these fields gives someone a leg up on being a pilot, especially when it comes to situational awareness. People sometimes think that only an idiot would make certain mistakes until they do it themselves. The lucky thing for us is that most people are only "temporarily misplaced" in an area where it doesn't make too much difference.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Let's look at this from a real-world, practical standpoint, ignoring political and other imagined issues. (my preferred view of everything, incidentally)

Exactly what harm can arise from temporarily popping across such a line on the map, in a light a/c, low level in an extremely remote part of the country?

The silence is deafening.
This is extreme overkill. Leave the guy alone.

 

[Jay Honeck]

It can be quite easy to cross a border. The DC FRZ (or whatever they call it now) is amazingly easy to blunder into on the western side. The eastern side is easier to avoid- just stay east of the Chesapeake Bay. The difference is some sort of landmark. Henning indicated the international boundary isn't always clear.

That's just rationalizing some really bad decisions, IMHO.

If I KNOW there are guys flying fighter planes with missiles and guns, waiting on a hair-trigger to scramble on my ass, it seems incumbent upon me to make darned sure I'm on the correct side of the line. An international border isn't some park boundary.

BTW: I've flown in the D.C. ADIZ -- it's not rocket science. In fact, I would venture that driving the Chicago Tollways is more complex than flying the D.C. ADIZ, yet we are STILL reading about pilots blundering into that airspace. It's just embarrassing.

No disagreement here, unless we thought he was running guns. The Mexicans have asked our govenrment to do something about the gun runners.

Hmmm. Does Mexico even HAVE an Air Force? Gonna have to Google that...

 

[Henning]

I mentioned that he was a university professor and former legislator because this presumably means that our wayward pilot has a bit more on the ball than your average Joe.

Yeah, right. The 80% rule knows no boundary of humanity. I know doctor professors that are comparable to Idiot Savants. They have one thing they can do, and outside of that the world would eat them, that's why they remain in academia where they are protected.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Let's look at this from a real-world, practical standpoint, ignoring political and other imagined issues. (my preferred view of everything, incidentally)

Exactly what harm can arise from temporarily popping across such a line on the map, in a light a/c, low level in an extremely remote part of the country?

The silence is deafening.
This is extreme overkill. Leave the guy alone.

I believe you're missing the point. This isn't a referendum on the wisdom of having an international border, and this isn't political. The issue is whether a pilot should be able to perform basic pilotage and navigation.

When the FAA changes the rules about flying into an ADIZ, the issue will be moot. Until then, it's a "big deal" -- as the poor pilot in this incident discovered.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Yeah, right. The 80% rule knows no boundary of humanity. I know doctor professors that are comparable to Idiot Savants. They have one thing they can do, and outside of that the world would eat them, that's why they remain in academia where they are protected.

Excellent point.

Just a few weeks ago we had an honest-to-goodness brain surgeon pilot stay with us, who managed to pull the hood release (at 60 mph) on our courtesy car, causing the hood to flip up, shattering the windshield in his face.

This is a guy you would trust to hold your brain in his hands.

 

[Everskyward]

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but in your first post you seem to imply that it wasn't merely an accident. I think others are pointing out that people screw up. It's not that implausible.

How does a university professor and former state legislator "accidentally" stray into Mexican airspace?

>snip<

Which begs the question...what really happened here?

 

[wabower]

Sounds like he was pretty close to holding his.

Excellent point.

Just a few weeks ago we had an honest-to-goodness brain surgeon pilot stay with us, who managed to pull the hood release (at 60 mph) on our courtesy car, causing the hood to flip up, shattering the windshield in his face.

This is a guy you would trust to hold your brain in his hands.

 

[Henning]

Excellent point.

Just a few weeks ago we had an honest-to-goodness brain surgeon pilot stay with us, who managed to pull the hood release (at 60 mph) on our courtesy car, causing the hood to flip up, shattering the windshield in his face.

This is a guy you would trust to hold your brain in his hands.

I have found that in a lot of people who are highly gifted in one area, draw that from a deficiency in others. There are few "Renaissance Men" out there.

 

[roncachamp]

I mentioned that he was a university professor and former legislator because this presumably means that our wayward pilot has a bit more on the ball than your average Joe.

It's been my observation that the fields of education and politics draw a lot of rather dim bulbs.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I have found that in a lot of people who are highly gifted in one area, draw that from a deficiency in others

The other possibility, one we often want to strike from our minds is that People Make Honest Mistakes; Sometimes Seemingly Stupid Ones. I bet each of us has made at least one error today. No matter how minor, it's happened to each of us today.
We need to accept that, and focus on how to properly deal with it. Both as error-makers, and as 3rd party 'judges' of errors we hear about.
I hope that, even for what seems like egregious mistakes that others make, I am able to say, "Wow, I don't think I would do that but I sure hope I won't. Maybe I can learn from this one so I never do." Period. Someone please point me to this post if I ever get on my high horse in the future.

 

[wabower]

Does it count if you made a mistake earlier in the day that you can't remember?

The other possibility, one we often want to strike from our minds is that People Make Honest Mistakes; Sometimes Seemingly Stupid Ones. I bet each of us has made at least one error today. No matter how minor, it's happened to each of us today.
We need to accept that, and focus on how to properly deal with it. Both as error-makers, and as 3rd party 'judges' of errors we hear about.
I hope that, even for what seems like egregious mistakes that others make, I am able to say, "Wow, I don't think I would do that but I sure hope I won't. Maybe I can learn from this one so I never do." Period. Someone please point me to this post if I ever get on my high horse in the future.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I believe you're missing the point. This isn't a referendum on the wisdom of having an international border, and this isn't political. The issue is whether a pilot should be able to perform basic pilotage and navigation.

When the FAA changes the rules about flying into an ADIZ, the issue will be moot. Until then, it's a "big deal" -- as the poor pilot in this incident discovered.

I don't believe anyone is missing the point. your thread title is "How is this possible..." It's possible because parts of the border don't have good landmarks near them, or the person wasn't paying attnetion to their instruments, ot they weren't using their instruments properly.

You mentioned flying around the DC ADIZ- you didn't mention which area, or if you were VFR or IFR. Some part of the border of that ADIZ have clearly defined landmarks such as the Chesapeake Bay; another is near roads shown on a VFR chart, some areas of that border are in an area where crossing that border looks much different that the "good" side. If you are using a GPS that has these borders delimited, it's easier to avoid this border if you pay attention to the instrument. Some people use a non-aviation GPS (including me) and this border isn't marked on it (unless a proximity waypoint is entered). I've flown around the DC ADIZ as well and there were areas I avoided due to the paucity of VFR landmarks.

I don't think anyone disagrees that it's a big deal. But stuff happens.

 

[Henning]

The other possibility, one we often want to strike from our minds is that People Make Honest Mistakes; Sometimes Seemingly Stupid Ones. I bet each of us has made at least one error today. No matter how minor, it's happened to each of us today.
We need to accept that, and focus on how to properly deal with it. Both as error-makers, and as 3rd party 'judges' of errors we hear about.
I hope that, even for what seems like egregious mistakes that others make, I am able to say, "Wow, I don't think I would do that but I sure hope I won't. Maybe I can learn from this one so I never do." Period. Someone please point me to this post if I ever get on my high horse in the future.

I agree actually. I wasn't making my remarks specifically to this instance or professor, just to the general assumption.

I would believe it was honest, but I didn't hear where he had crossed the border, just that he got low and off radar near the boarder and they sent someone out to see. I think he was engrossed in the damage the fire had done. He went down to look. He wasn't just flying around, he was using an aircraft to study something. It's a dud zero story. Nobody cared in the end. They checked him out, it was all good, no harm no foul and a couple pilots got to log some more time in F-16s.

Another thing is, wildfires don't care where that border is and may very well have ruined whatever was marking the boarder.


I don't even understand why it's newsworthy.

 

[Henning]

I believe you're missing the point. This isn't a referendum on the wisdom of having an international border, and this isn't political. The issue is whether a pilot should be able to perform basic pilotage and navigation.

When the FAA changes the rules about flying into an ADIZ, the issue will be moot. Until then, it's a "big deal" -- as the poor pilot in this incident discovered.

I don't think it was ever confirmed he crossed the boarder. He was inspecting wildfire damage. He was eyes out the window on the ground doing something. He wasn't concentrating on navigating, he was taking the plane to see different points of damage.

But it wasn't a big deal. He was inspecting fire damage, a couple F-16 took a flight and intercepted him. The feds met him back at the airport, asked him some questions and it's over. "What were you doing?" "I was inspecting the wildfire damage, I'm a Congressman here" "You were getting awfully close to the boarder" "I was on this side at all times". "Ok"

What more is gonna happen?

 

[rottydaddy]

This is a guy you would trust to hold your brain in his hands.

But not, apparently, to drive a car.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I agree actually. I wasn't making my remarks specifically to this instance or professor, just to the general assumption.

I would believe it was honest, but I didn't hear where he had crossed the border, just that he got low and off radar near the boarder and they sent someone out to see. I think he was engrossed in the damage the fire had done. He went down to look. He wasn't just flying around, he was using an aircraft to study something. It's a dud zero story. Nobody cared in the end. They checked him out, it was all good, no harm no foul and a couple pilots got to log some more time in F-16s.

Another thing is, wildfires don't care where that border is and may very well have ruined whatever was marking the boarder.


I don't even understand why it's newsworthy.

When the Air Force scrambles two F-16s, and the Feds meet ME at the airport, I will summarily crap my pants. That is a BIG DEAL. (Note, I'm not saying I agree that it should be a big deal. Just saying that our current regime has continued the previous regime's practice of treating it like a big deal. Since they get to define what a "big deal" is by their reaction, it is officially a "big deal".)

As to why it's newsworthy, it's always newsworthy when someone in an airplane blunders across an international border. You say he perhaps did not, in fact, cross the border, but I doubt they would have scrambled fighters if they didn't think he had. Without the tapes, we can't really comment, other than to assume that the USAF knows what they're doing.

As to cause, sure, it's possible the guy just screwed up. In fact, that's likely what did happen. I'm still incredulous that in 2011, something like this can happen to a certificated pilot, given the dramatic advances in cheap navigation technology.

Sure, in the pre-GPS, pre-LORAN days, I can easily see a border incursion happening along the Arizona border. But now? Nope. Not without being asleep at the controls.

Another possibility may be that he just didn't see it as being a big deal, given the fire? That almost makes more sense to me than an inability to navigate.

 

[Jim Logajan]

It's been my observation that the fields of education and politics draw a lot of rather dim bulbs.

So what fields do the bright bulbs go into?

 

[roncachamp]

So what fields do the bright bulbs go into?

This one

 

[MSPAviator]

I'm still incredulous that in 2011, something like this can happen to a certificated pilot, given the dramatic advances in cheap navigation technology.

Eh, cheap is relative. None of the planes I fly have a GPS in them and I'm kinda glad I did my training that way. For me, it was a choice between adding another 5 hours in my logbook or buying a used and quite primitive looking Garmin 295 that needed a database update. I chose the logbook time.

I just bought my first smart phone and this Monday, I'm looking forward to flying from with Naviator for the first time. I don't need a moving map to tell me where I am, but having that groundspeed readout will be nice.

Here's a nice chunk of restricted airspace I skirt around regularly:

http://skyvector.com/?ll=46.1432763...689386:G.46.02079154246812,-94.37544363362694

 

[N801BH]

It's been my observation that the fields of education and politics draw a lot of rather dim bulbs.

Darn..... I REALLY hate agreeing with Steven... but. He is right on once again...

Now excuse me while I book a appointment with the closest therapist.