How is this possible...

Henning said:
I don't think it was ever confirmed he crossed the boarder. He was inspecting wildfire damage. He was eyes out the window on the ground doing something. He wasn't concentrating on navigating, he was taking the plane to see different points of damage.

But it wasn't a big deal. He was inspecting fire damage, a couple F-16 took a flight and intercepted him. The feds met him back at the airport, asked him some questions and it's over. "What were you doing?" "I was inspecting the wildfire damage, I'm a Congressman here" "You were getting awfully close to the boarder" "I was on this side at all times". "Ok"

What more is gonna happen?
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If I was in his shoes and was damn sure I didn't cross the border then the F-16's escort and the FAA waiting at the airport would have made a perfect recipe to feed all of them the ol " FU and pound sand ****oles"...

IMHO
 
N801BH said:
Now excuse me while I book a appointment with the closest therapist.:idea::goofy:
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Therapist? We're pilots, we don't need no stinkin' therapists!

Paging Dr. Bravo Hotel, time for a local flight! ;)
 
I can tell you how big a deal it was to me. If this board had a thread ignore feature like those other colored boards that are better managed and appeal to higher-class clientele (Zzzzt!) :rofl: this thread wouldn't have disappeared after one post. We have so many tragic examples of pilot ignorance every day, including many that claim the lives of planeloads of people, that spending any time bemoaning some guy who was trying to parlay an airplane ride to see some fire damage into a fur-chasing adventure just doesn't rank very high on the "OMG, look whey did now scale.

Jay Honeck said:
.

As to cause, sure, it's possible the guy just screwed up. In fact, that's likely what did happen. I'm still incredulous that in 2011, something like this can ha

ppen to a certificated pilot, given the dramatic advances in cheap navigation technology.

Sure, in the pre-GPS, pre-LORAN days, I can easily see a border incursion happening along the Arizona border. But now? Nope. Not without being asleep at the controls.

Another possibility may be that he just didn't see it as being a big deal, given the fire? That almost makes more sense to me than an inability to navigate.
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Jay Honeck said:
As to cause, sure, it's possible the guy just screwed up. In fact, that's likely what did happen. I'm still incredulous that in 2011, something like this can happen to a certificated pilot, given the dramatic advances in cheap navigation technology.

Sure, in the pre-GPS, pre-LORAN days, I can easily see a border incursion happening along the Arizona border. But now? Nope. Not without being asleep at the controls.
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The plane I rent has no GPS in it unless I bring my own. Are you suggesting all planes have an aviation GPS with current database and an XM (or similar) subscription for the pop-up TFRs to be airworthy? Many aircraft don't even have radio.

Henning brought up the point that maybe the guy did nothing wrong- no evidence he did cross the border; if he didn't, he didn't screw up as you are quoted.
 
My vacation C172 had one comm/nav. No GPS, no moving map, no handheld; just a sectional bought at the FBO just before takeoff. Unfamiliar terrain, unfamiliar aircraft, distracted flying, loss of situational awareness. All these things lead you being some place you might not want to be.
Cut the guy a break. I'm sure it'll happen to you some day too.
 
This discussion is amusing to an extent. If anyone ever talks about penetrating the SFRA or FRZ, people are quick to condemn the pilot for not having the situational awareness to stay out of the area. And now we condemn another who questions why a pilot would not have the situational awareness to not cross an international border.

Do we, as an internet community, just live to contradict, no matter the topic?

Some of you have said, "I don't need no stinkin' GPS." And in the next sentence you say, "and I have this TFR that I always fly around and have never penetrated." So which is it? Is it easy to penetrate a no fly area, or is it easy to circumnavigate? You just proved Jay's point that it can obviously be done and that we should be doing it.

Is it ridiculous to scramble fighters in a lot of these situations? Yes, definitely. Is it going to go away if we, as a pilot community, continue to violate what has come to be? Absolutely not. Like it or not, the TFR's and SFRA's and the like are a way of the current life, and continuing violation will only make it a more permanent item. We, as pilots, have to do our due diligence to MAKE SURE we do not stray into improper airspace, regardless of what job we are doing. That means we have to find some landmark or feature to make sure we do not penetrate the airspace, and this guy is no better or worse than the rest of us. We can all have the same problem, and we would be just as much to blame as this guy, if he indeed penetrated Mexican airspace.

Jay's right in that the pilot should have had more situational awareness than he did. If he did violate airspace, he will pay for it one way or another. If I violate airspace, I will also deserve some form of punitive punishment. "Do the crime, do the time." Those of you who do not use GPS in the normal course of your flying, I would guess, have come up with other ways to know exactly where you are. Why shouldn't this pilot have done the same?
 
Aztec Driver said:
Do we, as an internet community, just live to contradict, no matter the topic?
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What I notice with these internet forums is that there are a lot of people who believe they're perfect and would never screw up. The reality is that we all screw up at some point or another. If one believes he or she won't, it probably means that person hasn't been flying long enough or doesn't pay attention to notice the screw-ups. I've seen both enough times. I also know that I'm not beyond screwing up, and have done so more than once. The best and most experienced pilots I know tend to have a list of times they've screwed up. It doesn't make them bad pilots by any means - just makes them human. I'd rather fly with someone who has a list of times he or she has screwed up than with someone who doesn't. The latter is probably the worse pilot.

The avionics question is humorous, because although many of us may have one or more moving map GPSs in our aircraft, that is not at all to say that all aircraft do. The Navajo I fly, for instance, has 0. I see a lot of bigger twins that have /A or even /U avionics, because moving map GPS capability is far important than having FIKI and on-board RADAR for those operators. When I bought my Aztec, it was /U. I put in a KLN94 moving map GPS because /G was important to me, but I was also ready to put in a KLN90B because what was important was the ability to file direct and perform non-precision GPS approaches. I just happened to get a really good deal on the KLN94 I installed.

That is not to say that one shouldn't be careful and make every attempt not to screw up. But the reality is we all do at some point, no matter how careful we are. I'd much rather see people post the same thread with "Be careful out there..." It's good to get reminders of things to be careful of.
 
Uhhh, let's see...
There are no sign markers in the sky saying "P51 Exit One Mile - Turn Around NOW"... At 2.5 miles per minute it will take 24 seconds for a one mile cushion between you and the Big O, to become zero... It just happened to another pilot...

The border between USA and Mexico looks like, well it looks exactly like endless scrub brush... Remember, 24 seconds? Shucks I can't even pour some of coffee in 24 seconds - and when I am pouring I am not looking at the GPS... Actually, when I went flying yesterday I did not have either GPS in the plane...

We get recruited by the FAA/HSA rhetoric that we pilots are spoze to be super beings - the gov't uses that rhetoric so they have some one to blame besides themselves... If the road system was run like the airspace system, they would remove all speed signs, all exit signs, in fact ALL signs... Then they would make everyone drive by ground reference to a map and set draconian penalties for speeding, making a wrong turn, and especially for getting lost! Ya wanna guess how long the body politic would put up with that? Yet,, we not only put up with it but seem defend that system and say any problem is the pilot's fault..

The current airspace is a demented mess... The TFR's that plague us are the invention of the incompetent to justify their continued employment - and to justify the irrational position that those who work for the government are so precious that the rest of us must be inconvenienced,, threatened, and even punished, so that these special people will feel safe...

As long as pilots act like sheep, they will be treated like sheep...

denny-o
 
I can tell you how big a deal it was to me. If this board had a thread ignore feature like those other colored boards that are better managed and appeal to higher-class clientele (Zzzzt!) :rofl: this thread wouldn't have disappeared after one post.
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So what strange compulsion is it that makes it impossible for you to skip threads you find so inane? :D
 
I usually do except when the histrionics cause me to occasionally check the meanderings.;)

Jay Honeck said:
So what strange compulsion is it that makes it impossible for you to skip threads you find so inane? :D
Click to expand...
 
Cap'n Jack said:
The plane I rent has no GPS in it unless I bring my own. Are you suggesting all planes have an aviation GPS with current database and an XM (or similar) subscription for the pop-up TFRs to be airworthy? Many aircraft don't even have radio.

Henning brought up the point that maybe the guy did nothing wrong- no evidence he did cross the border; if he didn't, he didn't screw up as you are quoted.
Click to expand...

Thankfully, I'm not the one who gets to decide whether he screwed up or not. That was already decided by the United States Air Force.

As for on-board GPS, I don't have one in my plane, either. However, I do have two portables, plus an iPad. Even the cheapest used portable GPS -- aviation, marine, or highway -- will display an international border.
 
I must say, this is a fascinating thread -- but not for the reasons I anticipated when I started it.

On one side of this topic we've got folks who defend the border-busting pilot in a very personal way, as if it were they, themselves, who were being persecuted. This can be summed up as "Hey -- everyone makes mistakes, cut the guy some slack!" They believe that we can all make mistakes, and that this somehow excuses our wayward pilot.

On another side, we've got people who are, like me, incredulous that a pilot could accidentally fly into a different country without knowing it. I still find it astounding that someone could be so oblivious when the consequences of failure are so high.

Finally, on a third side are those who condemn the pilot's actions, but nevertheless criticize me for bringing it up because it's just impolite to bring it up in such a way.

I just realized that this thread is exactly like having a conversation with my crazy sister.... Only difference is, she can hold all three opinions at once. :D
 
Jay Honeck said:
Thankfully, I'm not the one who gets to decide whether he screwed up or not. That was already decided by the United States Air Force.

As for on-board GPS, I don't have one in my plane, either. However, I do have two portables, plus an iPad. Even the cheapest used portable GPS -- aviation, marine, or highway -- will display an international border.
Click to expand...
Garmin GPS III doesn't (not the Pilot version- that came out later). It's old, but still out there.

Are you suggesting an aviation GPS with a current database and XM (or similar) subscription for TFR should be mandatory for flight?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Garmin GPS III doesn't (not the Pilot version- that came out later). It's old, but still out there.

Are you suggesting an aviation GPS with a current database and XM (or similar) subscription for TFR should be mandatory for flight?
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Of course not! But in the absence of situational awareness, they are well-advised.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I must say, this is a fascinating thread -- but not for the reasons I anticipated when I started it.

On one side of this topic we've got folks who defend the border-busting pilot in a very personal way, as if it were they, themselves, who were being persecuted. This can be summed up as "Hey -- everyone makes mistakes, cut the guy some slack!" They believe that we can all make mistakes, and that this somehow excuses our wayward pilot.

On another side, we've got people who are, like me, incredulous that a pilot could accidentally fly into a different country without knowing it. I still find it astounding that someone could be so oblivious when the consequences of failure are so high.

Finally, on a third side are those who condemn the pilot's actions, but nevertheless criticize me for bringing it up because it's just impolite to bring it up in such a way.

I just realized that this thread is exactly like having a conversation with my crazy sister.... Only difference is, she can hold all three opinions at once. :D
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Hi, one more (I'm the voice in your crazy sister's head;)). I say it happened because he was busy doing something more important than worrying about exactly where the border is.
 
Henning said:
Hi, one more (I'm the voice in your crazy sister's head;)). I say it happened because he was busy doing something more important than worrying about exactly where the border is.
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^^^
Voice of a more experienced pilot.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
^^^
Voice of a more experienced pilot.
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Well, you know, this is the exact opposite to the Cory Liddle crash. They were so worried about crossing a physically meaningless arbitrary invisible line in space that they crashed into a building instead.
 
Henning said:
Well, you know, this is the exact opposite to the Cory Liddle crash. They were so worried about crossing a physically meaningless arbitrary invisible line in space that they crashed into a building instead.
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Yep. Priorities:

1) Skin
2) Tin
3) Ticket
 
Jay Honeck said:
I mentioned that he was a university professor and former legislator because this presumably means that our wayward pilot has a bit more on the ball than your average Joe.
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Bwahahaha... (trying to pull myself together here...)

BWAHAHAHA!

I believe all you have to do to figure out why I'm laughing so hard is to replace "legislator" with "Senator Imhofe."

That particular legislator was the "I was told I had unlimited airspace!", guy.

"Legislator" usually = Charismatic charming dolt with a superiority complex.

As far as Professor goes, might I replace that word with "Ward Churchill" by way of explanation of my Uncontrolled outburst of laughter?

Point is, neither title means squat in a cockpit. "Doctor" even less. ;) :rofl:
 
roncachamp said:
I can assure you it is quite true, as I am the worlds foremost authority on what I have observed.
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The fact that a particular individual has made an observation does not make said individual's assertion true; it only makes the individual in question feel that what he or she has said is true. Furthermore, an observation is far from scientific. Your terms are defined emotionally and provocatively.

You must therefore be (I conclude from my having observed your posts) either an educator or a politician.
 
spiderweb said:
The fact that a particular individual has made an observation does not make said individual's assertion true; it only makes the individual in question feel that what he or she has said is true. Furthermore, an observation is far from scientific. Your terms are defined emotionally and provocatively.
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What assertion are you referring to?

You must therefore be (I conclude from my having observed your posts) either an educator or a politician.
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I am neither.
 
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