How does this even happen??

George Mohr said:
Thanks, this was making me nervous ;). I’ve come to accept the idea of a 30k engine event. But a 3AMU fuel gauge? From an in-production type??
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Well, the fuel gauge is that expensive due to an irony in the Textron pricing model.

My understanding is they have a complex computer model for automating the pricing of parts. The philosophy of the model is to charge exactly what the part costs Textron, plus a healthy margin. The thing is: everything is factored into that, including storage and administrative costs. The bulk of most of the parts' cost in the model is not the manufacturing cost. Most of it is paying for the space in the warehouse where one of these parts may sit for years or decades before being sold. And not just that part: the rate of sale is included in the model, so you're paying in part for all the unsold inventory, too. These things are made in large lots and used from stock for years, so the longer from the manufacture date, the pricier the part. Forecasts of when stock will run out are included in the model.

So, why the $3000 fuel gauge? Because precisely no one buys it. There are STC aftermarket units under $1000. If I hadn't done Cies (which has digital frequency output), an Aerospace Logic unit from Aircraft Spruce designed for the original resistive Rochester senders is $675 (FL202), even cheaper than the FL202D that I bought at $875 (+$123 in shipping from Canada!) So...the Cessna parts sit on a shelf and the price goes up every year due to the automated pricing model.

Nothing wrong with an automated pricing model...but you have to make sure that it's accomplishing the right goal. We're used to most markets, where growth is the goal. In those, there's incentive to avoid stiflingly high prices. But not here. Textron is assuming that piston GA is not a growth market and is pricing based on that assumption. That means each part needs to completely cover every scrap of expense incurred on its behalf. I guess they just haven't figured out or don't care that there are situations where the pricing model has pathological feedbacks.
 
arnoha said:
Cessna's solution was a recurring inspection with a go/no-go gauge on the seat tracks. Less than ideal. Several companies make various better solutions as backups to the main seat pins that should save your life. And they're cheap!
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Just to be fair, Cessna’s first solution was stops that don’t allow the seat to move all the way back. Their second solution is a free installation of what’s essentially a seat belt retractor underneath the pilot’s seat. We had both done, free. (Technically the previous owner had the stop installed and we did the belt.)

Cessna never created a solution for how wimpy their seat track is and there’s an AD on it, which is your “measuring” thing.

The best fix for pre-restarts when the Cessna rails finally don’t meet spec (and it takes a lot... four cracks or a lot of wear of the track, nobody looking at one without knowing the AD specs who had any brains at all about mechanical work would think the part didn’t need repair...) is to replace them with McFarlane’s after-market tracks and modify the seat portion to utilize those tracks. Which isn’t super expensive for parts, as airplanes go, but does have a fairly significant amount of labor involved.

Meanwhile the seat stop and the belt work fine as well as the AD inspection to keep you from visiting the back seat at rotation, and we all also do the Cessna butt wiggle.

A LOT of owners didn’t do the free belt retractor. Which is relatively stupid when it was free. I assume it still is even though Cessna stopped actively promoting it.

Their lawyers fully funded that effort since there wouldn’t have been a stop and re-start at Cessna if it weren’t for a moronic jury awarding millions to someone with a POSSIBLY worn out seat track based on a THEORY as they plowed into a mountain.
 
arnoha said:
Oh, question: Did you throw in a new breaker off the essential bus for the three, or just leave everything powered off the existing breaker?
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I added a 5 amp breaker. I'm not going to kick you when you are down just give you my actual costs. $920 (including $41 shipping from Canada edit: wondering why you spent $125) for the Aerospace Logic digital gauge, $802 (including $12 shipping) for the Cies digital senders. About $30 in wire and connectors, $20 breaker and $50 for the IA sign off of the 337. Total: $1822 installed under the watchful eye of my mechanic. Really happy with the results and the gauge is extremely accurate.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I added a 5 amp breaker. I'm not going to kick you when you are down just give you my actual costs. $920 (including $41 shipping from Canada edit: wondering why you spent $125) for the Aerospace Logic digital gauge, $802 (including $12 shipping) for the Cies digital senders. About $30 in wire and connectors, $20 breaker and $50 for the IA sign off of the 337. Total: $1822 installed under the watchful eye of my mechanic. Really happy with the results and the gauge is extremely accurate.
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Are we talking Loonies or Uncle Sams in both cases?
 
Timbeck2 said:
I added a 5 amp breaker. I'm not going to kick you when you are down just give you my actual costs. $920 (including $41 shipping from Canada edit: wondering why you spent $125) for the Aerospace Logic digital gauge, $802 (including $12 shipping) for the Cies digital senders. About $30 in wire and connectors, $20 breaker and $50 for the IA sign off of the 337. Total: $1822 installed under the watchful eye of my mechanic. Really happy with the results and the gauge is extremely accurate.
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$123 for FedEx Red, since I was AOG, leaseback, and wanted the plane up and running fast. That seemed worth the extra spend to get a few more days of rental in. It did turn out to matter, surprisingly...it got the gauge to my A&P faster so that he could say no faster so I could look elsewhere faster. But, yeah, spending $123 for shipping then having it sit for more than a week didn't make me happy. FedEx even screwed up...lost the invoice so it got held up in customs. Still made it in the three day window, so I had no case, but I was expecting overnight. It was over a weekend, so it was really annoying that two extra days were lost. Weekends are the real business days for leasebacks! I did not spend the $200 AOG fee that Aerospace Logic has to let you cut in line. They had one on the shelf, lucky me.

For parts, we're almost the same. It's just the labor. I think labor is a little more for Cessna, as the high wing means having to disassemble the inside of the A-pillar to get to the wing. I need to find a friendly A&P to pay for such sign-offs. Anyone know a good one at PAO?
 
Woohoo! Finally...the plane has new senders and a new fuel gauge. I haven't seen the final labor bill yet, but a shout-out to @Scott Philiben , as he apparently personally helped the shop get the thing installed. That included helping with the details of the Aerospace Logic FL202D when Aerospace Logic stopped answering their phones. (Was so bad with Aerospace Logic that their voice mailbox filled up and wouldn't take any more call!)

The senders are a thing of beauty and dead-nuts accurate. Total all-in cost for the conversion from Rochester to Cies in a 172SP is apparently right about $3500 to $4000 depending on your local labor rates.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I added a 5 amp breaker. I'm not going to kick you when you are down just give you my actual costs. $920 (including $41 shipping from Canada edit: wondering why you spent $125) for the Aerospace Logic digital gauge, $802 (including $12 shipping) for the Cies digital senders. About $30 in wire and connectors, $20 breaker and $50 for the IA sign off of the 337. Total: $1822 installed under the watchful eye of my mechanic. Really happy with the results and the gauge is extremely accurate.
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Oh, side note: in the 172, an additional breaker was not needed.
 
arnoha said:
Woohoo! Finally...the plane has new senders and a new fuel gauge. I haven't seen the final labor bill yet, but a shout-out to @Scott Philiben , as he apparently personally helped the shop get the thing installed. That included helping with the details of the Aerospace Logic FL202D when Aerospace Logic stopped answering their phones. (Was so bad with Aerospace Logic that their voice mailbox filled up and wouldn't take any more call!)

The senders are a thing of beauty and dead-nuts accurate. Total all-in cost for the conversion from Rochester to Cies in a 172SP is apparently right about $3500 to $4000 depending on your local labor rates.
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Just like a car right? They are awesome and give peace of mind knowing exactly how much fuel is left in the tanks.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Just like a car right? They are awesome and give peace of mind knowing exactly how much fuel is left in the tanks.
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Just flew with it. Looks and works great. Except...

@Timbeck2 What did you do for the dimmer? My shop doesn't appear to have wired it in, so you have to do the 5-second-hold and button dance to prep it for night flight. Did you put the pot in like recommended?
 
A bit late for this suggestion but: did anyone see if the needle could be put back on the original gauge? Typically they are a push on fit much like the second hand on a clock.
 
flyingbrit said:
A bit late for this suggestion but: did anyone see if the needle could be put back on the original gauge? Typically they are a push on fit much like the second hand on a clock.
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Not really. At the point that happened, I was done with the stock fuel system. I'd had the Cies senders on a shelf for a while and was looking for the right time to install them. This was as close to the right time as was going to happen.

That said, I'll get the old senders and old gauge back and see if they have any value.
 
I'm glad the senders are finally where they belong - The dimmer is easy to add, but I found the onscreen dimmer to be easier . Hooking the dimmer up to the aircraft lighting dimmer is problematic as they have a dead zone to let the Garmin auto dim.


You can output to the Rochester Gauge in the aircraft - however the amount of fussy messing with potentiometers makes the Aerospace Logic a better choice - once calibrated correctly they have been reliable and good units in the aircraft.
 
arnoha said:
Just flew with it. Looks and works great. Except...

@Timbeck2 What did you do for the dimmer? My shop doesn't appear to have wired it in, so you have to do the 5-second-hold and button dance to prep it for night flight. Did you put the pot in like recommended?
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To tell the truth, I haven't flown at night yet with it and no I didn't put in a pot. I was just going to deal with the on screen dimmer.
 
Scott Philiben said:
I'm glad the senders are finally where they belong - The dimmer is easy to add, but I found the onscreen dimmer to be easier . Hooking the dimmer up to the aircraft lighting dimmer is problematic as they have a dead zone to let the Garmin auto dim.

You can output to the Rochester Gauge in the aircraft - however the amount of fussy messing with potentiometers makes the Aerospace Logic a better choice - once calibrated correctly they have been reliable and good units in the aircraft.
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Does Rochester make that gauge, too? Why am I not surprised?

My main concern with the dimmer is, being a leaseback, renters won't be able to figure out the dimmer. Glowing brightly at night is annoying, but only that. More worried about someone setting it up for night and getting squawked in the morning as inop. Wondering if it could be wired to the Dim/Bright/Test switch. Don't really need 100 brightness levels. I find 20 works great during the day and 1 nicely at night.
 
You can set a 2 position switch the
Two levels it is in the Aerospace manual
 
Timbeck2 said:
I added a 5 amp breaker. I'm not going to kick you when you are down just give you my actual costs. $920 (including $41 shipping from Canada edit: wondering why you spent $125) for the Aerospace Logic digital gauge, $802 (including $12 shipping) for the Cies digital senders. About $30 in wire and connectors, $20 breaker and $50 for the IA sign off of the 337. Total: $1822 installed under the watchful eye of my mechanic. Really happy with the results and the gauge is extremely accurate.
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I billed about $1500 labor for one. That included everything you did and jacking and leveling the airplane (Cessna 177B).
 
Hi Armen, We met at Tradewinds a couple of times. I enjoyed renting N194SP a few times when it was there. Great plane. I really enjoy reading your blog. It's rare for someone to share such candid experience with leasebacks. The insight is very educational.
 
There used to be a window in the FBO at CJR where you could look in at the mechanics working in the shop. Someone put up a "please don't tap on the glass" sign.
 
bnt83 said:
I billed about $1500 labor for one. That included everything you did and jacking and leveling the airplane (Cessna 177B).
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Well, I should have had you do it, then. The labor bill just came in from Rossi. $2750. I am definitely feeling like I've been bent over. How many hours is $1500 to you? I've attached the important part of the bill.

img110.jpg

That included $300 for 56 gallons of fuel. They disposed of the round of fuel drained to calibrate it. Why? Is that standard practice?

Reminds me, I need to bug them about returning my working parts they removed.
 
It took 10 hours to calibrate the gauge?!! You got screwed my man! I did it by myself and it only took 2 hours total. AND they "disposed" of your fuel from full tanks? I bet they "disposed" of it in one of their own airplanes OR they drained it into fuel cans and "sold" it back to you at the $5.45 price per gallon.

Shady characters they are.
 
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NordicDave said:
Hi Armen, We met at Tradewinds a couple of times. I enjoyed renting N194SP a few times when it was there. Great plane. I really enjoy reading your blog. It's rare for someone to share such candid experience with leasebacks. The insight is very educational.
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Heh...is it scaring you off leaseback? It probably should...

I'm glad you're enjoying it. That's exactly what I was aiming for...exposing my experience, warts and all. My inexperience in all this is on full display and sometimes it's embarrassing. It's very good to hear feedback. Most of the time, over at the blog, it's radio silence from my audience. Definitely knowing someone is benefiting from it helps me keep going.

Speaking of which, time to go write a blog post on this thing, finally.
 
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Timbeck2 said:
It took 10 hours to calibrate the gauge?!! You got screwed my man! I did it by myself and it only took 2 hours total.
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I have that feeling. Rossi had me over a barrel, given that I was AOG and every other shop at PAO had refused the work. I'll give them that they did the work and did it right away. It also appears to be quality work at first glance, except for missing on the dimmer. I can pretty much assure you it really did take them that long. The frustration in Alberto Rossi's voice as he talked about the work showed. He was particularly annoyed with Aerospace Logic, who would not answer the phone. On the other hand, he had nothing but praise for @Scott Philiben and his responsiveness. (Me too! Thanks! It's not often you get direct support from the president for a tiny little plain jane install in a crappy 172.)

I feel like I got charged for his learning curve. I don't know what's fair. His shop spent the time. The $110/hour rate is quite ordinary and fair around here. But there was definitely time spent spinning as he was unable to move forward due to inexperience with the install. There's a suggestion in the bill that he pulled six hours labor off the bill due to this. Still, it's a high bill.
 
Well hopefully Shane from Aerospace Logic will be along to defend his company. I have nothing but praise for AL and Shane answered all my questions on this forum, he was the guy I talked to when I ordered it over the phone, and his name is on all the paperwork too. I didn't have to contact Cies at all as I just ordered their stuff from Spruce.

However, when its all over but the crying and you go up with those new gauges and realize how accurate they are, you'll forget all about the money. You got the digital gauge and senders too?
 
Timbeck2 said:
Well hopefully Shane from Aerospace Logic will be along to defend his company. I have nothing but praise for AL and Shane answered all my questions on this forum, he was the guy I talked to when I ordered it over the phone, and his name is on all the paperwork too. I didn't have to contact Cies at all as I just ordered their stuff from Spruce.

However, when its all over but the crying and you go up with those new gauges and realize how accurate they are, you'll forget all about the money. You got the digital gauge and senders too?
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Yeah, it's all digital signaling. FL202D from Aereospace Logic. Shane was the name that Alberto was cursing, so I'd love to hear it from his perspective. I report what I hear from the shop. My direct experience with Aerospace Logic was decent. They answered my typed questions in their online IM quickly and got the part out immediately, despite my not having selected AOG service ($200). There was one on the shelf, they said. FedEx screwed up, but Aerospace Logic did get that fixed, too. My direct experience was different than Alberto's.

Shane is on the board? I don't know who he is here...I would be happy to have you do an @ mention here and bring him in. Love to hear his side of it.
 
Yeah, I've had someone mention me but I've never "mentioned" anyone else. I guess I'm not much of a name dropper, normally.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Yeah, I've had someone mention me but I've never "mentioned" anyone else. I guess I'm not much of a name dropper, normally.
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Heh. As it happens, I'm technical lead for LinkedIn Messenger and Groups, so some of this stuff may be right in my wheelhouse... ;) ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/arnoha/ )

I should update that profile photo...I'm a little older now...
 
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