How does a pre-buy work for the seller?

[Kristin]

I think your imagination has run away with your common sense. the red tag is use when they find a discrepancy during a ramp check, when the FAA has no contact with the owner/pilot.

When a ASI is notified there is an unsafe aircraft by a A&P-IA they will come out and investigate, when they are not satisfied the aircraft isn't being dealt with properly. they will confiscate the AWC.
If you don't believe me call your FSDO and ask.
Two occasions in the past I've been called in after the fact to deal with the repair, and getting the AWC re-instated. (not fun)
After reading your first rant about what the FAA will and won't do, I can understand you not knowing this.
When you get refresher training by FSDO at their yearly sessions you will understand the ASIs depends upon A&P-IAs input because they know they can't be every all the time.
Were you to inform your PMI that there is a safety issue with N--- and to not issue a special flight permit, they wouldn't.
ButI guess you and Witmo wouldn't get involved, you'd just let some ferry pilot get killed.

You need to get out and around the country more often. FSDO's operate differently from one another. The last time I reported an unairworthy airplane my FSDO was not interested, even though I could prove that an AD compliance had been pencil-whipped.

You may know what your FSDO will do, but I am quite sure that you do not know what mine will do.

Last time I checked, the world did not give me a cape or tunic with a big S on the front. I will do what is reasonable under the circumstances but without any ego that my opinions about airworthiness are the only possible ones and I would never scrawl those opinions in someone's logbook, even if there is little doubt about the airworthiness. I operate under the laws we have, not the ones I think we should have. I also seem to manage to avoid owners that wouldn't fix the obvious stuff like corroded wing structure, so I have never felt the need to enforce my will. Making my opinions clear has always gotten the desired result. Maybe I am just better at explaining or you are somehow a magnet for all the cheapskate owners. Whatever!

 

[unsafervguy]

But....

43.11 says...
(a) Maintenance record entries. The person approving or disapproving for return to service an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part after any inspection performed in accordance with part 91, 125, §135.411(a)(1), or §135.419 shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

Show me where a pre buy is outlined in those parts. So, a entry does not legally have to be made. I will leave you all to argue if you should or should not make an entry, but under 43.11 and 91.409 you are not required to.

Bob

 

[Kristin]

But....

43.11 says...
(a) Maintenance record entries. The person approving or disapproving for return to service an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part after any inspection performed in accordance with part 91, 125, §135.411(a)(1), or §135.419 shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

Show me where a pre buy is outlined in those parts. So, a entry does not legally have to be made. I will leave you all to argue if you should or should not make an entry, but under 43.11 and 91.409 you are not required to.

Bob

A pre-buy is not covered in this, or any other regulation. That was may point. A mechanic doing a pre-buy has no authority to essentially vandalize the owner/seller's logbooks, regardless of how highly he/she thinks of their own opinion on the matter.

In fact, a legal interpretation is likely to hold that even an IA doing an annual inspection does not have the authority to enter any more in the log that that the aircraft has been inspected in accordance with an annual inspection and found to be in unairworthy condition and a list of discrepancies have been provided to the owner.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Not to distract from the wonderfully heated discourse by bringing it back to the OP's topic, but I found this post on another forum quite relevant:

Underlines and font changes are mine.
"There are reasons that some folks don't want the airplane to leave the field. As a seller, when your airplane is at the buyer's facility dressed down for a prebuy the buyer has a strong incentive to become difficult and demanding. It often becomes an exercise for the buyer to use to make demands of the seller.
I've had buyers hand me a list of every tiny thing that wasn't like straight out of the factory and demand a huge discount off the selling price on decades old airplanes.
At that point, my airplane is in pieces at a different airport. I've even had a buyer walk away when he couldn't extort a better deal from me, and I had to pay his mechanic to put my airplane back together so I could leave.
The way I look at it, a buyer can bring the mechanic of his choice to my field for the pre-buy. If he is a serious buyer, he will oblige. If not, fine with me.
Lets face it, many buyers don't have the character of most on this forum."

The above post appeared today, coincidentally - affirming what I asked earlier in this thread.
A prebuy poses risk to the seller which ought to have protections and compensations in place beforehand.

 

[Tom-D]

You may know what your FSDO will do, but I am quite sure that you do not know what mine will do.

If you are really a A&P-IA I suggest you tighten your relationship with your PMI. Apparently you don't have very much creditability with them.
If you are sure there is a red tag, show me the form number used by the FAA

 

[MauleSkinner]

I see lots of entries for repairs. I see almost none that lists the discrepancy before the repair. But then I have only looked at thousands of logbook pages and most all have been for U.S. aircraft so maybe things are different in other parts of the world.

so you get a lot of customers who have refused to have airworthiness squawks on their airplanes repaired?

 

[Tom-D]

A pre-buy is not covered in this, or any other regulation. That was may point. A mechanic doing a pre-buy has no authority to essentially vandalize the owner/seller's logbooks, regardless of how highly he/she thinks of their own opinion on the matter.

In fact, a legal interpretation is likely to hold that even an IA doing an annual inspection does not have the authority to enter any more in the log that that the aircraft has been inspected in accordance with an annual inspection and found to be in unairworthy condition and a list of discrepancies have been provided to the owner.

That's where you are proven wrong by FAR 43. you are required by FAR to make the entry. and it is the owners duty to see that it is completed. When you are hired to do any inspection the FAA considers that maintenance. I've discussed that at great length with Bill O'Brian prior to his retirement and death. He was the one who rewrote AC 43-13, the ASI hand book, and several other Guidance ACs. and the verbiage for the annual sign off. He was the one who suggested that the log book entry be made for safety issues found at any time. And that is why you'll never see a statement saying the discrepancy can't be placed in the maintenance records.

 

[Tom-D]

so you get a lot of customers who have refused to have squawks on their airplanes repaired?

I don't because I have better customers than that. My friends that work as -IAs at the local FBOs see this quite often, that is how I bought 34V the owner simply couldn't afford the cost of making that old bird airworthy, I couldn't stand seeing it get scrapped.

 

[Tom-D]

But....

43.11 says...
(a) Maintenance record entries. The person approving or disapproving for return to service an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part after any inspection performed in accordance with part 91, 125, §135.411(a)(1), or §135.419 shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

Show me where a pre buy is outlined in those parts. So, a entry does not legally have to be made. I will leave you all to argue if you should or should not make an entry, but under 43.11 and 91.409 you are not required to.

Bob

Your quote speaks of required inspections, but any inspection is still maintenance and requires a return to service entry.

 

[Tom-D]

A pre-buy is not covered in this, or any other regulation.

Did you open any panels while you inspected?? that's maintenance -- compliance with FAR 43 is required.

 

[Tom-D]

OMG you don't have any return to service entries for the pre-buy inspection? Oh now we have an aircraft that has incomplete logs, I guess we'll just reduce the price for that too. ROTFLOL.

 

[Kristin]

If you are really a A&P-IA I suggest you tighten your relationship with your PMI. Apparently you don't have very much creditability with them.
If you are sure there is a red tag, show me the form number used by the FAA

I don't have a PMI (Primary Maintenance Inspector) as I am not running a repair station or a Part 135 operations. Red tag is an old time colloquial term. Perhaps it comes from before your time. I don't happen to know the form number as I haven't seen one in years.

 

[Kristin]

That's where you are proven wrong by FAR 43. you are required by FAR to make the entry. and it is the owners duty to see that it is completed. When you are hired to do any inspection the FAA considers that maintenance. I've discussed that at great length with Bill O'Brian prior to his retirement and death. He was the one who rewrote AC 43-13, the ASI hand book, and several other Guidance ACs. and the verbiage for the annual sign off. He was the one who suggested that the log book entry be made for safety issues found at any time. And that is why you'll never see a statement saying the discrepancy can't be placed in the maintenance records.

Where does it say that a pre-purchase inspection requires a logbook entry? I am not returning the aircraft to service as I have never taken it out of service. Maybe I can help you properly interpret the FAR's, though I doubt it. Feel free to post the exact language or the FAA interpretation. If I am wrong I will admit it, but I haven't seen it yet.

 

[Kristin]

Did you open any panels while you inspected?? that's maintenance -- compliance with FAR 43 is required.

Were is that written? So you make entries like: Opened up inspection panel in fuselage and reinstalled panel? Nice! I have never seen such an entry or the FAR that requires it.

 

[Kristin]

OMG you don't have any return to service entries for the pre-buy inspection? Oh now we have an aircraft that has incomplete logs, I guess we'll just reduce the price for that too. ROTFLOL.

Not unless I repaired something. Then the log entry is for the repair, not the pre-purchase inspection. I have yet to see someone log a pre-purchase inspection. Are you sure we are talking U.S aircraft here or are you in another country following their laws.

 

[unsafervguy]

the regs that would apply are:

1.1 Maintenance means inspection, overhaul, repair, preservation, and the replacement of parts, but excludes preventive maintenance.
43.5
Approval for return to service after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
No person may approve for return to service any aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance, that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—

(a) The maintenance record entry required by §43.9 or §43.11, as appropriate, has been made;


43.9
§43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.


43.11 Content, form, and disposition of records for inspections conducted under parts 91 and 125 and §§135.411(a)(1) and 135.419 of this chapter.
(a) Maintenance record entries. The person approving or disapproving for return to service an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part after any inspection performed in accordance with part 91, 125, §135.411(a)(1), or §135.419 shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) The type of inspection and a brief description of the extent of the inspection.

(2) The date of the inspection and aircraft total time in service.

(3) The signature, the certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving or disapproving for return to service the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, component part, or portions thereof.

the gray area is that inspection is not defined in section 1.1. 43.11 defines that inspections done under 91 a return to service must be entered.
so does removing panels an looking around constitute an inspection under 43.11? or, are inspections required under part 91,135 the spelled out inspections under 43.11 require a return to service, if you believe that it requires a return to service entry then so be it, that is your take on the regs. however, if you believe that then I assume that you also put in an entry every time you add air to a tire (preventive maintenance under 43.5) add oil to the motor (preventive maintenance 43.5) replace a screw on a fairing (maintenance under 1.1). part 121 carriers do exactly that, any time a tech touches the aircraft an entry is made. no problem there, that is the strictest reading of the rules. but, if you do not do it that way, then it is just as big of a violation when you do not make a log entry when you replace a screw on the cowl as it is not to make an entry for a pre-buy.

bob

 

[Tom-D]

the regs that would apply are:

1.1 Maintenance means inspection, overhaul, repair, preservation, and the replacement of parts, but excludes preventive maintenance.
43.5
Approval for return to service after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
No person may approve for return to service any aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance, that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—

(a) The maintenance record entry required by §43.9 or §43.11, as appropriate, has been made;


43.9
§43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.


43.11 Content, form, and disposition of records for inspections conducted under parts 91 and 125 and §§135.411(a)(1) and 135.419 of this chapter.
(a) Maintenance record entries. The person approving or disapproving for return to service an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part after any inspection performed in accordance with part 91, 125, §135.411(a)(1), or §135.419 shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) The type of inspection and a brief description of the extent of the inspection.

(2) The date of the inspection and aircraft total time in service.

(3) The signature, the certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving or disapproving for return to service the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, component part, or portions thereof.

the gray area is that inspection is not defined in section 1.1. 43.11 defines that inspections done under 91 a return to service must be entered.
so does removing panels an looking around constitute an inspection under 43.11? or, are inspections required under part 91,135 the spelled out inspections under 43.11 require a return to service, if you believe that it requires a return to service entry then so be it, that is your take on the regs. however, if you believe that then I assume that you also put in an entry every time you add air to a tire (preventive maintenance under 43.5) add oil to the motor (preventive maintenance 43.5) replace a screw on a fairing (maintenance under 1.1). part 121 carriers do exactly that, any time a tech touches the aircraft an entry is made. no problem there, that is the strictest reading of the rules. but, if you do not do it that way, then it is just as big of a violation when you do not make a log entry when you replace a screw on the cowl as it is not to make an entry for a pre-buy.

bob

Do you know the difference between servicing and maintenance?

 

[Tom-D]

I don't have a PMI (Primary Maintenance Inspector) as I am not running a repair station or a Part 135 operations. Red tag is an old time colloquial term. Perhaps it comes from before your time. I don't happen to know the form number as I haven't seen one in years.

Then you are not even an A&P-IA (got it) no wonder you do not have great credibility with FSDO.
Kristin, I've been in this industry off and on since 1957.
And there is a reason you haven't see a red tag in years. Let's see if you can figure out why

 

[Tom-D]

the regs that would apply are:

1.1 Maintenance means inspection, overhaul, repair, preservation, and the replacement of parts, but excludes preventive maintenance.

bob

FINALLY some is getting close as to why we don't see return to service entries for pre-buys. What would be done during the Pre-buy that wouldn't be considered preventive maintenance ? read the 31 items that are listed in FAR 43-A para C.
If you have done anything during that pre-buy that falls out side of those 31 items you need an entry. other wise ?
Opening the panel looking inside, nothing was repaired or altered. = no entry = preventive maintenance
A + for unsafervguy

 

[unsafervguy]

the interesting thing is that 1.1 says that preventive maintenance is not maintenance, but 43.9 says and entry must be made for preventive maintenance. that does lead to the argument that if anything is done an entry must be made. clear as mud isn't it?

bob

 

[Kristin]

Then you are not even an A&P-IA (got it).

The FAA says otherwise. Given you must be close to 80 or older, I think I now understand.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Then you are not even an A&P-IA (got it) no wonder you do not have great credibility with FSDO.

I'm guessing more involvement with sales, since diminution of value appears to be more important than airworthiness or accurate representation.

 

[Witmo]

Every time Tom-D invokes his special relationship with his PMI, I think they should just get a room.

 

[Tom-D]

The FAA says otherwise. Given you must be close to 80 or older, I think I now understand.

Well If you are an A&P-IA some body renews you certificate ever two years. You should call them, that's your PMI. the more you post the more you show how much you don't know about being an A&P.

And yes I'm 76, and still involved in GA, mostly just fun stuff and helping those who need my help.
see my Facebook page to see what Im doing. Just tell me I'm Kristin, I"ll let you in.

 

[Tom-D]

Every time Tom-D invokes his special relationship with his PMI, I think they should just get a room.

Typical Witmo response, nothing to add, but still posting. sounds a like ;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravda

 

[Kristin]

Well If you are an A&P-IA some body renews you certificate ever two years. You should call them, that's your PMI. the more you post the more you show how much you don't know about being an A&P.

And yes I'm 76, and still involved in GA, mostly just fun stuff and helping those who need my help.
see my Facebook page to see what Im doing. Just tell me I'm Kristin, I"ll let you in.

I haven't have the same ASI renew my IA twice in a row since I was in the OAK FSDO district. The only operations that have a formal PMI are 135 and 145 operations. OAK seems to assign ASI's to groups of airports in a geographical location, but changes the assignments around. That is not a formal PMI relationship according to OAK. The last formal PMI I had was when serving as DOM of a 135 operation.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm guessing more involvement with sales, since diminution of value appears to be more important than airworthiness or accurate representation.

probably, because Kristin doesn't show the in the field knowledge that active -IAs do.

I haven't have the same ASI renew my IA twice in a row since I was in the OAK FSDO district. The only operations that have a formal PMI are 135 and 145 operations. OAK seems to assign ASI's to groups of airports in a geographical location, but changes the assignments around. That is not a formal PMI relationship according to OAK. The last formal PMI I had was when serving as DOM of a 135 operation.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself, look at your little card. there is a name there. call FSDO and ask for them.
Not very difficult. even old people can do it.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/oak/local_more/media/employee_directory.pdf

 

[midlifeflyer]

Not to distract from the wonderfully heated discourse by bringing it back to the OP's topic, but I found this post on another forum quite relevant:

Underlines and font changes are mine.
"There are reasons that some folks don't want the airplane to leave the field. As a seller, when your airplane is at the buyer's facility dressed down for a prebuy the buyer has a strong incentive to become difficult and demanding. It often becomes an exercise for the buyer to use to make demands of the seller.
I've had buyers hand me a list of every tiny thing that wasn't like straight out of the factory and demand a huge discount off the selling price on decades old airplanes.
At that point, my airplane is in pieces at a different airport. I've even had a buyer walk away when he couldn't extort a better deal from me, and I had to pay his mechanic to put my airplane back together so I could leave.
The way I look at it, a buyer can bring the mechanic of his choice to my field for the pre-buy. If he is a serious buyer, he will oblige. If not, fine with me.
Lets face it, many buyers don't have the character of most on this forum."

The above post appeared today, coincidentally - affirming what I asked earlier in this thread.
A prebuy poses risk to the seller which ought to have protections and compensations in place beforehand.

Of course it should. One possible device is a deposit sufficient, if not to cover all possible pre-buy damage, to at least have the buyer have something significant to lose.

 

[kmead]

Most of what I do now is pre-purchase inspections anywhere on the PA46 series, sometimes other aircraft if I have time. The sellers are often nervous about me showing up. Some sale people will even throw the deal away to keep me out of it.

My pre-purchase is no official inspection and I don't plan on doing any maintenance so I see no legal need to make a log entry. As the mechanic I make the decision. When I work with the Lycoming engine on the Mirage I must dump the oil to remove the oil suction screen and oil filter. The Continental engine will get only a new filter. I will make an entry for those since I did perform maintenance. I don't want to make the seller any madder than he may already be. The findings presentation and keeping my mouth shut is the biggest part of making this the best experience that I can for everyone while remembering that I work for the buyer.

Tom, I do respect what you know and do. I wish I could get involved in your discussions, many are interesting. But after 37 years of aircraft maintenance I've learned not to set myself up for a big argument, I have better things to do. Maybe someday I'll get involved.

 

[Kristin]

probably, because Kristin doesn't show the in the field knowledge that active -IAs do.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself, look at your little card. there is a name there. call FSDO and ask for them.
Not very difficult. even old people can do it.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/oak/local_more/media/employee_directory.pdf

Under-pinning your argument is your claim to know how every other IA in the world operates and how every other FSDO operates, when every reader knows that it ridiculous on its face. Since I don't agree with your pronouncements, you single me out as incompetent, uncertified, etc, If that isn't the definition of an arrogant a$$, I don't know what is. I learned a long time ago that there were certain personality types to avoid when it come to flying or fixing my planes or those for which I am responsible. Everyone else is free to do as they like. All I can say is that I am glad you never went to work for the FAA and that I never had to deal with you in that capacity. I have run into enough of that.

 

[Tom-D]

Under-pinning your argument is your claim to know how every other IA in the world operates and how every other FSDO operates,

There ya go, reading into a statement things that were never there. Every one knows we IAs must rectify every 2 years, some one signed your card. Thinking that every FSDO can deviate from that is simply naive. and once again proves you don't have the field knowledge of the standard A&P-IA.
Plus the first FAA rant on what the ASIs can or won't do gave away your ability to interface with FSDO. I may be an arrogant ass as far as your concerned, but at least I know who my PMI is and how to deal with FSDO.

 

[Doggtyred]

Pretty simple point of view from the outside, looking in. The seller owns the plane and the logs. Nothing goes in the logs without the owners permission.

The buyer owns the data and discrepancy list from the mechanic's pre-buy inspection. If the buyer wants to make the inspection a logged annual, that gets logged in the books AFTER the purchase is concluded.

If the owner/seller wants the data and discrepancy list logged/signed off by the mechanic and no sale/transaction occurs (as in.. "fresh annual" to go on the books), the owner needs to buy the data/discrepancy list from the person who paid the mechanic for it. The mechanic is the buyers agent, not the sellers..

The mechanic provides the inspection, and the signed/dated list of discrepancies to the person who paid for the inspection. And to the owner, but not logged without owner consent. This is all contingent on the seller/owner, buyer and mechanic all being agreeable to this.

The rest of this is just a ****ing contest.

 

[MauleSkinner]

What if the owner decides not to buy the discrepancy list from the person who paid the mechanic for it, and there are airworthiness issues on that list?

 

[Clark1961]

if a dead horse is beaten on the internet did Al Gore still lose the election?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Simple, up to date solution for the seller, in addition to my earlier idea of tying the deposit to loss or damage to the aircraft by the buyer or his agents. Scan the logbooks. Send the scans for the pre-buy and protect the originals from the possibility of loss or improper tampering. Seems prudent these days.

 

[Kristin]

There ya go, reading into a statement things that were never there. Every one knows we IAs must rectify every 2 years, some one signed your card. Thinking that every FSDO can deviate from that is simply naive. and once again proves you don't have the field knowledge of the standard A&P-IA.
Plus the first FAA rant on what the ASIs can or won't do gave away your ability to interface with FSDO. I may be an arrogant ass as far as your concerned, but at least I know who my PMI is and how to deal with FSDO.

Anything I would say would be a repeat of what I have said all along. At least some folks have gotten it. The pre-buy inspection has no right nor obligation to make a log book entry unless he/she does actual maintenance. Kevin Mead draws the line where I do, and this is all agreed to before hand. I don't do anything to an aircraft that the seller does not approve of and no entries get made that the owner, at that time, be it buyer or seller, does not want made. It is really very simple. I get along fine with both sellers and owners as I am respectful to both.

 

[Doggtyred]

What if the owner decides not to buy the discrepancy list from the person who paid the mechanic for it, and there are airworthiness issues on that list?

The owner is given the list, which is all that is required of the mechanic, because a prebuy is not required maintenance, and the aircraft wasn't being returned to service because it was never out of service. If a repair is made, then the person who owns the plane (before or after the sale) needs to be the one paying the mechanic for the repairs and required post-repair entries.

 

[Tom-D]

The owner is given the list, which is all that is required of the mechanic, because a prebuy is not required maintenance, and the aircraft wasn't being returned to service because it was never out of service. If a repair is made, then the person who owns the plane (before or after the sale) needs to be the one paying the mechanic for the repairs and required post-repair entries.

The list of discrepancies is given to the buyer or, who paid for it. Post inspection repairs is a whole different issue. they may not even be repaired by the inspecting person. I put it that way because you don't need to be a certified mechanic to do a pre-buy.
where are we required to make a list? supposed the first thing the inspector looks at is reason to walk? list needed? don't think so.

 

[Tom-D]

Pretty simple point of view from the outside, looking in. The seller owns the plane and the logs. Nothing goes in the logs without the owners permission.

What do the regulations require of the owner as to their maintenance records keeping? are we even required to keep logs?
show your reference.

 

[Doggtyred]

What do the regulations require of the owner as to their maintenance records keeping? are we even required to keep logs?
show your reference.

I dont need to show a reference. Because... If there is no need for the owner to keep maintenance records, then there is no need to even discuss a buyers mechanic making a logbook entry for a prebuy inspection in those logs that aren't required to exist. If there IS a requirement to keep records, then all REQUIRED maintenance should be logged in accordance with those regulations. A prebuy inspection is not REQUIRED maintenance.