How dangerous is it?

Salty

Salty

Touchdown! Greaser!
PoA Supporter
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
14,330
Location
FL
Display Name
Display name:
Salty
Ive been flying with an older gentleman with thousands of hours, that hadn’t flown in a number of years. At first he impressed me with his talent, but as he’s gotten more hours he seems to be quickly getting lazy. First thing I noticed was an intersection takeoff at a short field with two people in a 150.

Then he started doing something else that seems really wreckless to me, but maybe it’s just me.

On climb out, right at the end of the runway at about 65 mph he cranks in an abrupt 20 degree turn towards his departure direction. I feel like an abrupt turn that slow is a really bad idea, but I’m not sure it’s as bad as it seems to me at the time. It’s certainly an unnecessary risk, but is it really that risky?
 
Maybe he ran the numbers and the takeoff data was ok. 65 mph with a 20 degree bank usually isn’t an issue. What seems dangerous to you may not be dangerous for the person flying the plane.
 
20 isn't much, though I normally like to get 4-500' AGL before I turn outside of odd ball bush stuff.

For the interaction, how much realestate did he have ahead?
 
Yeah 20deg of bank in a 150 isn’t much. I typically wait until I’m 500agl before making any turns off the upwind. Keep in mind that the stall speed is much lower, (35-40kts depending on the configuration) so 65 isn’t something to raise caution over.
 
We were just above the tree line, no reason to turn yet at all. Nothing but cows in all directions. It’s probably just the abruptness that makes me notice at all. Its quite a snap he does.
 
Maybe a little low but I don't see it being dangerous. Stall speed is pretty low in a 150, 65 mph is a big enough buffer to bank 20 comfortably IMO.
 
It sounds to me like he is bored. I fly with a lot of folks that are bored with flying straight and level and never exceeding a 30* bank in "Spam Cans";).

If I am right, the problem is that he can get into trouble trying for some excitement the way you describe.

Maybe you could suggest that he get some Tailwheel Instruction, Spin or Unusual Attitude Training with an instructor in an aerobatic airplane.

It might just scratch his itch.
 
I agree with the ‘bored’ comment. The quick turn itself isn’t necessarily dangerous, but what this older gentleman may not realize is he ain’t as good as he once was.

Personally, I’d be more concerned with the intersection departure, but can’t really say how risky that is without knowing distances invoked.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I agree with the ‘bored’ comment. The quick turn itself isn’t necessarily dangerous, but what this older gentleman may not realize is he ain’t as good as he once was.

Personally, I’d be more concerned with the intersection departure, but can’t really say how risky that is without knowing distances invoked.
Click to expand...

After the abrupt turn he lets go of the yoke and let’s the plane fly itself to the point of absurdity. I know it’s no big deal, but again, why would you not lift a wing back up when a gust pushes it down 10 degrees. It’s takeoff, slam the yoke over, let it go just as abruptly and then pointedly ignore it. I think part of it is he’s showing off. And I think he knows I don’t like it, though I haven’t said anything.

The departure wasn’t dangerous, but it was pointlessly lazy. 15 seconds to taxi back to the end is just foolish to skip. It’s not even a taxi back, it’s just taking the further ramp. When I saw him do it by himself I thought it wasn’t that big a deal, but when he did it with me and full tanks, it’s just stupid, IMO. It’s still a shade over 3000 foot of runway even from the intersection, far from dangerous in a 150, but I can’t see any good reason not to take the slightly longer ramp, unless there are zombies chasing you.
 
"It’s still a shade over 3000 foot of runway even from the intersection, far from dangerous in a 150"

Okay, now you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. Leave him alone.

My entire runway is less than 3000'. You called it a "short field" in your initial post.

You're fishing for issues that aren't there.
 
jimmyjack said:
"It’s still a shade over 3000 foot of runway even from the intersection, far from dangerous in a 150"

Okay, now you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. Leave him alone.

My entire runway is less than 3000'. You called it a "short field" in your initial post.

You're fishing for issues that aren't there.
Click to expand...
Sure, if you ignore what I actually said, which is that wasn’t dangerous.
 
Yank-and-bank pilots make me nervous. I prefer inputs that are smooth...deliberate and timely, but smooth. Passengers appreciate that too!
 
Ryanb said:
Yeah 20deg of bank in a 150 isn’t much. I typically wait until I’m 500agl before making any turns off the upwind. Keep in mind that the stall speed is much lower, (35-40kts depending on the configuration) so 65 isn’t something to raise caution over.
Click to expand...

Same for me. Dont screw with anything until 500ft unless necessary. Intersection departures - would you regret it if the engine took a dump at 50’?
 
Salty said:
... I know it’s no big deal, but ...

The departure wasn’t dangerous, ... I thought it wasn’t that big a deal, ... but I can’t see any good reason...
Click to expand...

You know, you’re not required to fly with this pilot.
 
Salty said:
Sure, if you ignore what I actually said, which is that wasn’t dangerous.
Click to expand...

Then why bother mentioning the intersection departure it if it's no big deal?


To me, this guy just sounds like a typical sloppy pilot out flying for recreation, not holding himself to much of any standard. There are tons of guys like that out there. If you don't care for the way he flys, don't ride with the guy. The solution can really be as simple as that. I don't really see much of a point in making a quick turn upon departure like you describe but I don't necessarily see an inherent danger in doing it either.
 
jimmyjack said:
"It’s still a shade over 3000 foot of runway even from the intersection, far from dangerous in a 150"

Okay, now you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. Leave him alone.

My entire runway is less than 3000'. You called it a "short field" in your initial post.

You're fishing for issues that aren't there.
Click to expand...

3k in a 150? Oh come on now, Ill land that IFR in a turboprop with snow

Youre picking nits
 
Sundancer said:
Buy a boat.
Click to expand...
Short_S-23.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Short_S-23.jpg
 
mondtster said:
To me, this guy just sounds like a typical sloppy pilot out flying for recreation, not holding himself to much of any standard. There are tons of guys like that out there. If you don't care for the way he flys, don't ride with the guy. The solution can really be as simple as that. I don't really see much of a point in making a quick turn upon departure like you describe but I don't necessarily see an inherent danger in doing it either.
Click to expand...

3000' intersection in a 150, yawn.

There are sloppy pilots out there and there are the cowboy yahoo pilots and old timers who are losing it, but there are also the old timers who've been flying the same plane for years and know exactly how it will behave in any situation, even when it's not straight and level or gentle banks. Often they're the ones who survived their cowboy days.
 
How about you guys make a side point into a straw man and beat it into submission. :p

I distinctly said the intersection takeoff was “far from dangerous”.
 
TommyG said:
Not if he’s looking to build 1500 hrs.
Click to expand...

Nope. Even in the military, I had a choice if I was going to step into a jet with someone or not.

The OP is absolutely NOT required to fly with pilot in question.
 
The guy sounds like a hot dog; it's all fun n games at low altitude til it isn't. Wasn't someone doing that in his flying jet ski in Florida recently? He's free to fly that way, but I personally wouldn't ride with him.
 
iflyvfr said:
The guy sounds like a hot dog; it's all fun n games at low altitude til it isn't. Wasn't someone doing that in his flying jet ski in Florida recently? He's free to fly that way, but I personally wouldn't ride with him.
Click to expand...
I would not put this in the same category as Halliday
 
Salty said:
I would not put this in the same category as Halliday
Click to expand...
I get that but low altitude horsing around is a notoriously good way to get dead. And I would put what he's doing in that category. If he was at altitude I'd have no problem, but terra firma is an unyielding beyoch.
 
I’m flying with him because he’s a friend and he likes to have company. I wanted to get feedback before I made him uncomfortable about it.
 
If all directions are suitable for a forced landing, what difference does it make if he turns early with a 20* bank at 65? The rest (letting go of the yoke, letting the wing drop, etc.) sounds sloppy. I would tell him it bothers me then suggest some things to make the flight more interesting. Lazy eights and chandelles were my cure for boredom when I flew a Mooney mostly on trips. If I was VMC and not in A airspace it was a rare trip I didn't break up with one or the other (sometimes both) midway.
 
Shepherd said:
He thinks he's as good as he was during "the good old days".
He's not.
Call him out about it
Click to expand...

I used to fly with an older gent. He has over 2500 hours, mostly from years ago. I can tell you when you are in your 80's you are not what you once were. The second time he scared the sh$t out of me it was the last.
He still think he is a superior pilot, when I pointed he was setting up himself for failure because his approaches were never stabilized, he remarked, that's how fighter pilots do it.. He still thinks he's is doing nothing wrong and all advice is taken badly
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top