How dangerous are low-level aerobatics?

pigpenracing said:
Hey Acrogimp,
If low level acro is not dangerous and has no risk maybe you should roll that Citabria upside down at 20 feet and send us a video. It shouldn't be a problem with your experience.
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Since I have neither the experience nor the equipment the OP was asking about I think I'll pass.

I am nowhere near experienced enough to try and fly low level acro, and I know it - this is actually what I am trying to get at.

I am at the beginning of my progression, Sean and Kyle and Matt and Michael and Kirby and Patty and so on are all light years beyond me, but they each have specific safety approaches to manage risk, as do I and I suspect as do you.

Sean for example sets a minimum number of clean practice sessions at higher altitudes before working to get back down to his show routine altitudes when he takes even a couple days off.

I never said it wasn't dangerous, I did however disagree with the assertion that guys are 'going in all the time' and that '70 year olds shouldn't be doing it' because those opinions were based in ignorance with no understanding of the preparation we go through for 'real' aerobatics such as competition or airshow type.

One competitor I know, Malcolm Pond flies an Edge 540 in the Unlimited category, Mal is a retired or near retired surgeon, is near if not passed 70, and he is a great stick, National Judge and all around good guy. Hasn't lost a step and is very competitive.

We have a very active acro community here in SoCal, that has produced many US Team members, but in the 28 years I have been in and around flying I know more guys who have died in 'regular' airplane accidents or flight test accidents than have died from acro or airshow accidents.

'Gimp
 
pigpenracing said:
Hey Acrogimp,
If low level acro is not dangerous and has no risk maybe you should roll that Citabria upside down at 20 feet and send us a video. It shouldn't be a problem with your experience.
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Where is that coming from dude?? :confused: Not sure which thread you're reading, but I didn't read anything like that here.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Is base jumping dangerous? Never mind you aren't qualified to answer. Probably to scared to make to take a tandem ride. Some people would rather hide inside flying machines then get out and experience life and true human flight.
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So, we're all aviation cagers! :thumbsup: :yes:
 
Personally I love flying a chute. If I was going off a building I'd want me a long wing para glider so I could swoop and cruise!
 
Risk increases a great deal at low level. The Stearman debacle, killing the pilot and the woman wing walker is a classic example. ( he stalled it.) higher, he could have stumbled thru it. Many have died this way over the years.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Risk increases a great deal at low level. The Stearman debacle, killing the pilot and the woman wing walker is a classic example. ( he stalled it.) higher, he could have stumbled thru it. Many have died this way over the years.
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:confused: The way I remember that, he would have had to have been considerably higher to recover. You can't have an airshow act like that where the focus is a person climbing around on top of a wing flying at 500' for a hard deck. Even then, he may have survived and she not being throw off in the recovery.

Look, there's no reason to be concerned about any of this. All these performers know the risk in far greater detail than will ever be discussed here. They accept that, and they accept that it may be the cause of their own mortality, which they also accept. They prefer to live life for the experience rather than in fear of it. Put your life in your own hands and mastery of skill is an exhilarating, positive, experience.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
The Stearman debacle, killing the pilot and the woman wing walker is a classic example. ( he stalled it.) higher, he could have stumbled thru it.
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FWIW, if you're talking about the Dayton crash last year, Charlie did NOT stall the airplane. I saw video and stills that showed every little control input he made throughout. My strong feeling is that he simply entered the roll with insufficient airspeed which caused the roll to stop halfway around (despite full aileron deflection) due to the weight, drag, and spoiled airflow caused by Jane on the wing. He tried to save it in the last few moments by rolling out in the opposite direction, but it was too late and too low. Of course more altitude and he could have recovered.

Henning said:
All these performers know the risk in far greater detail than will ever be discussed here.
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Yep, leaps and bounds greater.
 
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RoscoeT said:
You are clearly not remotely an aerobatic pilot,
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I'm clearly not an NFL, MLB or NBA player either. But that doesn't keep me from accurately assessing that a 70 year-old man using 70 year-old equipment wouldn't last long performing at any of those venues either.

Henning said:
airshow routines and audiences are choreographed and staged in such a way that if something goes wrong, the plane's energy won't carry it into the audience. Air shows are pretty safe for spectators.
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There were about a dozen people at the 2011 Reno air Races that might disagree with you.

(If they were still around to do so)
 
timwinters said:
I'm clearly not an NFL, MLB or NBA player either. But that doesn't keep me from accurately assessing that a 70 year-old man using 70 year-old equipment wouldn't last long performing at any of those venues either.
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Dude, why don't you "assess" who all these 70+ yr old aerobatic/airshow pilots are who are killing themselves? There are lots of 70 yr. old aerobatic and airshow pilots. Show your statistics...or just keep peddling impossibly ignorant statements. Actually, I think I'm just feeding a troll.

timwinters said:
There were about a dozen people at the 2011 Reno air Races that might disagree with you.

(If they were still around to do so)
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You're grasping for ridiculous arguments. This was is even more off base than your NBA/NFL/MLB reference. Reno is not an airshow, nor is it set up anything like one.
 
whifferdill said:
FWIW, if you're talking about the Dayton crash last year, Charlie did NOT stall the airplane. I saw video and stills that showed every little control input he made throughout. My strong feeling is that he simply entered the roll with insufficient airspeed which caused the roll to stop halfway around (despite full aileron deflection) due to the weight, drag, and spoiled airflow caused by Jane on the wing. He tried to save it in the last few moments by rolling out in the opposite direction, but it was too late and too low. Of course more altitude and he could have recovered.



Yep, leaps and bounds greater.
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I have a lot of hours in a Stearman. The fellow was way too slow and too low for his experience in that airplane.(he normally flew something else. ) In other words it quit flying. I call that a stall. 100 feet higher, everyone could have still been impressed and with any luck he could have corrected his error. He had a 450 pw so horsepower was not the problem. He also had dual ailerons which helps a great deal verses the normal single wing set up which is standard. I mention this as it's recent. There are many many more screw ups and deaths at low altitudes. Happens often.
 
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Jimmy cooper said:
The fellow was way too slow and too low for his experience in that airplane.(he normally flew something else. )
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Charlie was one of three pilots who flew that airplane, doing that act. He had plenty of Stearman time as a long time Flying Circus pilot. He just messed up.

Jimmy cooper said:
In other words it quit flying.
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It quit rolling, it didn't quit flying. If he hadn't dished the roll toward the crowd in the first half of the roll, he likely could have simply flown inverted level long enough to build enough speed to climb away safely. He didn't have a lot time to act once the airplane's flight path was angled toward the crowd.

Jimmy cooper said:
I call that a stall.
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Most pilots call exceeding critical AOA a stall. I only first responded to your post in the interest of accuracy about what happened.
 
timwinters said:
There were about a dozen people at the 2011 Reno air Races that might disagree with you.

(If they were still around to do so)
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:confused: Do you not understand what Reno is? They are Air Races run at the ragged edge of the maximum edge of the performance envelope. They have nothing in common with an Airshow except that planes and people are there.
 
Henning said:
:confused: Do you not understand what Reno is?
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I think he does. He's just being a troll. I think he knows he's wrong as hell, but he seems to be having fun shooting from the hip.
 
Thank you for the replies everyone! I appreciate it. Kind of a side question to "airshow flying", how much do people like Rob Holland and Mike Goulian make a year? I've always been interested in doing airshows as a side job, but lately I've been considering making it my career. (I've gone through some other career options, and someone in my family said ever since I was little, it's always come back to airshow flying). Just trying to make enough money to get started and purchase a plane like an MXS seems like a major setback though...but a lot of people use a Decathlon for competition flying and I could always ask my flight school to let me rent theirs!
 
Melissa2983298 said:
Thank you for the replies everyone! I appreciate it. Kind of a side question to "airshow flying", how much do people like Rob Holland and Mike Goulian make a year? I've always been interested in doing airshows as a side job, but lately I've been considering making it my career. (I've gone through some other career options, and someone in my family said ever since I was little, it's always come back to airshow flying). Just trying to make enough money to get started and purchase a plane like an MXS seems like a major setback though...but a lot of people use a Decathlon for competition flying and I could always ask my flight school to let me rent theirs!
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Biplanes look better......
 
I don't enjoy watching low-level aerobatics as I consider it pretty gratuitous risk-taking to titillate an audience.
 
Marry someone with a trust fund. If the trust fund runs out running acro planes find a new one(husband with a trust fund.) Rinse, repeat as often as necessary.
 
Pretty dangerous, there is no room for error.
 
Melissa2983298 said:
Thank you for the replies everyone! I appreciate it. Kind of a side question to "airshow flying", how much do people like Rob Holland and Mike Goulian make a year? I've always been interested in doing airshows as a side job, but lately I've been considering making it my career. (I've gone through some other career options, and someone in my family said ever since I was little, it's always come back to airshow flying). Just trying to make enough money to get started and purchase a plane like an MXS seems like a major setback though...but a lot of people use a Decathlon for competition flying and I could always ask my flight school to let me rent theirs!
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As long as you don't mind living in tents on airports and eating Ramen on your camp stove, you might make a living off air shows in 10-20 years. Most performers I've met have a day job or other income.
 
Melissa2983298 said:
Thank you for the replies everyone! I appreciate it. Kind of a side question to "airshow flying", how much do people like Rob Holland and Mike Goulian make a year? I've always been interested in doing airshows as a side job, but lately I've been considering making it my career. (I've gone through some other career options, and someone in my family said ever since I was little, it's always come back to airshow flying). Just trying to make enough money to get started and purchase a plane like an MXS seems like a major setback though...but a lot of people use a Decathlon for competition flying and I could always ask my flight school to let me rent theirs!
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Melissa, how old are you? If you are at the age of needing to make some serious education and career choices, I would strongly suggest higher education right now, and plan on a money making "career" other than airshow flying. 99% of airshow pilots have other careers and means of income. You just cannot go from zero to Rob Holland or Mike Goulian without paying your dues and getting years and years of experience on your own. This takes money - from somewhere. You will not find a sponsor who will pay for your primary aerobatic training, and thousands of hours and years of aerobatic experience, and lots of coaching along the way. You are looking at Rob Holland and Mike Goulian. These guys are the almost like the Lebron James' and Michael Jordans' of the airshow world - only they make a miniscule fraction of the money...and that's a major understatement. The top airshow pilots in the country actually make modest money from airshow flying and sponsors. If you are in high school or just starting college right now, you will be in for a rude awakening when you start needing to pay the bills from airshow flying. By all means work toward this, but given your current level of experience, consider this a possible "phase two" career down the road in your life.

You really can get into airshow flying with very modest skills, equipment, and experience (unlike Rob and Mike), but we're talking little local airshows here and there, where you'll be lucky to cover the cost of operating the airplane, much less supporting yourself. You're just not going to be able to make this a sole money making career until you figure out a way to differentiate yourself at the highest level from the many other very talented performers out there. What are you going to do that's unique? It's very hard to "make plans" to become one of the handful of top performers in the country who can actually support themselves by way of airshow involvement and sponsorship. The rest just do it as hobby, and because other means allow them to afford it.

You just need to get started in aerobatics period, and see where it takes you. It must be a natural progression. Get involved with IAC and competition. Most of the top airshow pilots reached high levels in competition before becoming known for airshows - Rob Holland, Mike Goulian, Sean Tucker, Patty Wagstaff, Kirby Chambliss, Skip Stewart, Gary Ward. Rob, Kirby, Mike, and Patty are former Unlimited National Champions.

If you are truly serious about getting into airshow flying, this really isn't the best place to ask for advice. You should reach out to other successful ("sucess" being a relative and subjective term) airshow pilots. You can find a mentor if you show you are serious and smart. Rob's a really down-to-earth guy. Reach out to him. There aren't too many female airshow pilots out there. Reach out to Melissa Pemberton. They will advise you better than anyone here.
 
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whifferdill said:
Melissa, how old are you? If you are at the age of needing to make some serious education and career choices, I would strongly suggest higher education right now, and plan on a money making "career" other than airshow flying. 99% of airshow pilots have other careers and means of income. You just cannot go from zero to Rob Holland or Mike Goulian without paying your dues and getting years and years of experience on your own. This takes money - from somewhere. You will not find a sponsor who will pay for your primary aerobatic training, and thousands of hours and years of aerobatic experience, and lots of coaching along the way. You are looking at Rob Holland and Mike Goulian. These guys are the almost like the Lebron James' and Michael Jordans' of the airshow world - only they make a miniscule fraction of the money...and that's a major understatement. The top airshow pilots in the country actually make modest money from airshow flying and sponsors. If you are in high school or just starting college right now, you will be in for a rude awakening when you start needing to pay the bills from airshow flying. By all means work toward this, but given your current level of experience, consider this a possible "phase two" career down the road in your life.

You really can get into airshow flying with very modest skills, equipment, and experience (unlike Rob and Mike), but we're talking little local airshows here and there, where you'll be lucky to cover the cost of operating the airplane, much less supporting yourself. You're just not going to be able to make this a sole money making career until you figure out a way to differentiate yourself at the highest level from the many other very talented performers out there. What are you going to do that's unique? It's very hard to "make plans" to become one of the handful of top performers in the country who can actually support themselves by way of airshow involvement and sponsorship. The rest just do it as hobby, and because other means allow them to afford it.

You just need to get started in aerobatics period, and see where it takes you. It must be a natural progression. Get involved with IAC and competition. Most of the top airshow pilots reached high levels in competition before becoming known for airshows - Rob Holland, Mike Goulian, Sean Tucker, Patty Wagstaff, Kirby Chambliss, Skip Stewart, Gary Ward. Rob, Kirby, Mike, and Patty are former Unlimited National Champions.

If you are truly serious about getting into airshow flying, this really isn't the best place to ask for advice. You should reach out to other successful ("sucess" being a relative and subjective term) airshow pilots. You can find a mentor if you show you are serious and smart. Rob's a really down-to-earth guy. Reach out to him. There aren't too many female airshow pilots out there. Reach out to Melissa Pemberton. They will advise you better than anyone here.
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That was very good advice; thank you! I heard something that Rob has an income of 100,000, is that not true? To answer your questions, I'm 19 and in college for mechanical engineering. I have my Private and am working on my IFR (which should be done by December) and I'm planning on getting my commercial and CFI after that whole receiving aerobatic training! I'm fortunate enough to afford training and have a family that is supportive of my flying aspirations (I am a third generation pilot). I figured I could work as an engineer for some years, or get a good corporate gig, to support my aerobatic training until I was able to make it to "the big leagues" so to speak. I've never really wanted engineering as a career; flying and aerobatics have always been my passion since I was little; my wall is filled with signed pictures of aerobatic pilots I've met over the years!
 
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Melissa2983298 said:
That was very good advice; thank you! I heard something that Rob has an income of 100,000, is that not true? To answer your questions, I'm 19 and in college. I have my Private and am working on my IFR (which should be done by December) and I'm planning on getting my commercial and CFI after that whole receiving aerobatic training! I'm fortunate enough to afford training and have a family that is supportive of my flying aspirations (I am a third generation pilot).
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Consider how far $100,000 goes when you are touring and campaigning a high strung, high maintenance, aero show aircraft and support crew and equipment. You may find that $100k doesn't cover all the expenses some years.
 
A bunch of good advice here, Melissa. Rich Stowell, while not an airshow pilot, is a mechanical engineer and is (has) made a living in aviation and aerobatic flying. If you are truly interested in aviation as a career, take a look at what Rich has done and is doing. Maybe you could do something along those lines and do airshows on the side until you get established.
 
Thank you very much everyone! I'm not too sure if anyone knows this, but how much do people like Rob and Mike charge per performance? Is it like $5000 per show or $5000 per performance? So if he flew 4 times, it would be $20,000 for example? I don't even know if the 5k is right; it's just an example
 
I don't know what the low level performers make, but they don't make enough that's for sure. :nonod:

EOD1vq9.gif
 
Thanks everyone! One more question for all you; as I'm sure you heard, there was a fatality in Reno yesterday. This morning, I was having some friends (who are not pilots) and they asked me what the cause of most airshow is. Honestly, I wasn't sure how to respond. What is the cause of most airshow crashes? Pilots continuing a sequence they shouldn't have? Mechanical failure?
 
For air shows I'd say the primary cause is failure to recover from the manuver at sufficient altitude. That can be because the aircraft is stalled or they just didn't have sufficient altitude. Haven't seen many mechanical failures at air shows.

While Reno does have an air show, you'll find it's accidents are from the races. Mechanical failure is the primary cause because of the nature of racing. The aircraft are modified in ways that the original manufacturer didn't intend. They're flying at speeds with sustained G. Some aircraft are decades old. It's only logical that you're going to have accidents.

I was at Reno on the Sunday race in 99. Just the day prior one if the Gold Mustangs pretty much disentegrated inflight. Contrast that to 2007 when I was at the "Gathering" they had Mustangs all over the place and not a single accident. The aircraft were flown conservatively for displays and not pushed hard like at Reno.
 
Velocity173 said:
For air shows I'd say the primary cause is failure to recover from the manuver at sufficient altitude. That can be because the aircraft is stalled or they just didn't have sufficient altitude. Haven't seen many mechanical failures at air shows.

While Reno does have an air show, you'll find it's accidents are from the races. Mechanical failure is the primary cause because of the nature of racing. The aircraft are modified in ways that the original manufacturer didn't intend. They're flying at speeds with sustained G. Some aircraft are decades old. It's only logical that you're going to have accidents.

I was at Reno on the Sunday race in 99. Just the day prior one if the Gold Mustangs pretty much disentegrated inflight. Contrast that to 2007 when I was at the "Gathering" they had Mustangs all over the place and not a single accident. The aircraft were flown conservatively for displays and not pushed hard like at Reno.
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I agree. Just ask steve hinton, one of the best pilots ever. He's very lucky to be alive due to mechanical failure at Reno. Also check his background, the endless hours getting to be one of the best ever. Why not become a naval cadet. They train you free.
 
Melissa2983298 said:
Thanks everyone! One more question for all you; as I'm sure you heard, there was a fatality in Reno yesterday. This morning, I was having some friends (who are not pilots) and they asked me what the cause of most airshow is. Honestly, I wasn't sure how to respond. What is the cause of most airshow crashes? Pilots continuing a sequence they shouldn't have? Mechanical failure?
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Reno is an Air Race, not really an airshow. At Reno it's pretty much always a mechanical failure of an over stressed part. At an airshow my very unresearched just observational view is that about 10% are mechanical failure, the rest are pilot error. Out of those I see about a 50:50 split between making a mistake in energy management, the others I see as poor decision to continue the act in winds greater than are safe to be doing the act in.
 
If you watched Bob Hoover, you saw the pro at energy management plus no stupid stuff down low, lots of money behind him for maintenance and thousands of hours of flying experience. Even then he had several hair raising mechanical failures that almost killed him. Very calculating pilot, very professional.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I agree. Just ask steve hinton, one of the best pilots ever. He's very lucky to be alive due to mechanical failure at Reno. Also check his background, the endless hours getting to be one of the best ever. Why not become a naval cadet. They train you free.
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Yep, survived a bad Mustang wreck and also had the gear collapse on the highly modified Tsunami. I like Reno but I'd rather see the warbirds preserved instead of modified into something that looks nothing like the original.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yep, survived a bad Mustang wreck and also had the gear collapse on the highly modified Tsunami. I like Reno but I'd rather see the warbirds preserved instead of modified into something that looks nothing like the original.
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Fantastic pilot and a real gentleman . Then there's his son, apparently plenty good too! To be able to fly like that!
 
Velocity173 said:
Yep, survived a bad Mustang wreck and also had the gear collapse on the highly modified Tsunami. I like Reno but I'd rather see the warbirds preserved instead of modified into something that looks nothing like the original.
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:confused: I thought Tsunami was a scratch build, not a modified warbirds.
 
Low level aerobatics are dumb dumb dumb and stupid dangerous - and that is why people pay money to be there to watch in hopes they will see YOU spectacularly die.

I love airplanes, always have always will, but were I in power low level aerobatics would end.
Not because I give a furry rodents fat pucker hole if YOU live or die (shrug) but because these crashes just reinforce the herd mentality that airplanes are dangerous and should be banned and they go whining to their congressman who is always looking for a new law to have his name attached to and is happy to introduce laws to limit GA flying in this country.
We are our own worst enemy.
 
Dr. O said:
Low level aerobatics are dumb dumb dumb and stupid dangerous - and that is why people pay money to be there to watch in hopes they will see YOU spectacularly die.

I love airplanes, always have always will, but were I in power low level aerobatics would end.
Not because I give a furry rodents fat pucker hole if YOU live or die (shrug) but because these crashes just reinforce the herd mentality that airplanes are dangerous and should be banned and they go whining to their congressman who is always looking for a new law to have his name attached to and is happy to introduce laws to limit GA flying in this country.
We are our own worst enemy.
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:rolleyes2:
 
Dr. O said:
Low level aerobatics are dumb dumb dumb and stupid dangerous - and that is why people pay money to be there to watch in hopes they will see YOU spectacularly die.

I love airplanes, always have always will, but were I in power low level aerobatics would end.
Not because I give a furry rodents fat pucker hole if YOU live or die (shrug) but because these crashes just reinforce the herd mentality that airplanes are dangerous and should be banned and they go whining to their congressman who is always looking for a new law to have his name attached to and is happy to introduce laws to limit GA flying in this country.
We are our own worst enemy.
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You must be against all forms of exhibition then.

Kentucky Derby - a jockey might fall off and become paralyzed like Christopher Reeve.

NASCAR and auto racing - because people might die

Concerts - the stage might collapse and injure someone

While we are at it, let's close airports too because they're dangerous. Like Santa Monica.

Sure, aviation has restrictions and laws that we must abide by. Instead of looking at how the FARs restrict us, look at what they let us do. Take a look at how restrictive flying is in other parts of the world. Can't fly at night, no aerobatics without a rating, etc....
 
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