How can it be fixed...

mchesney

mchesney

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Jan 12, 2012
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77
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Jackson, MI
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Display name:
Mike
The problem with general aviation as I see it is mostly based on cost. I'm a VERY new pilot but it took me 8 years of on/off training to get here with cost being one of the issues it took so long. I absolutely love flying...in fact, I fly in helicopters as my day job ( I don't fly them...just in them). I make a pretty good living out of it too but I still can't afford to fly regularly and certainly not as much as I'd like. I know there are cheaper options than renting, such as clubs, but it's still a lot of money. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd make new airplanes the cost of new cars...with similar upkeep costs. Imagine how that would change GA. Will it ever be possible for people like me to own a new aircraft, with the lastest and greatest safety features instead of hunting through 50 year old aircraft, that look like crap, for something semi-affordable to fly?:dunno::mad2:
 
Don't hold your breath. LSA was supposed to bring affordable airplanes to the masses, and you're still looking at over $100,000 for a new plane. Look into clubs. You may be surprised to see how affordable they can be.
 
Go Experimental!
Hangar neighbor just sold a beautiful RV for $50,000. Not much more than a lot of cars these days and waaaaaay more fun. 190 mph on 8 gph. That's almost 24 MPG, how can ya beat that?
You can get fast planes cheaper than that but the RV is holding to high values. A friend bought a canard for 28K and does 190 on 7 gph. Some actually do much better.
Lots of options if you don't need to go so fast....(?)
 
labor costs are high. certification requirements result in a very durable product. neither of these help purchase price of a factory built plane.
 
Certification costs are one thing - although there is progress there on the FAA side.

Liability costs are another - and those ain't coming down.
 
onwards said:
Certification costs are one thing - although there is progress there on the FAA side.

Liability costs are another - and those ain't coming down.
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Liability costs aren't as big as people make them out to be. Yes, people are sue happy.. but look at public companies financial statements and the biggest costs are emplyees and benefits debts.. look at TXT (owns Cessna) and liability is barely mentioned yet page after oage spells out their benefits and retirement costs.. sure explains why Cessna moving production to china..

Also, lsa would be much cheaper if they weren't going with glass cockpits.. maybe someone will fill a basic lsa void here before long that isn't homebuilt.
 
Everyone whines about cost but wants nothing to do with cheaper options. Cost of a car, you can do that. Fast, IFR! loaded with TVs for the cost of a car not likely.
 
Economies of scale is the problem in aviation. Nothing has a high enough demand to allow the scale up and tooling to produce aircraft or engines on what we'd consider an affordable scale.

So if you want to fly, join a club, join the CAP, or buy something inexpensive like a C-150. Otherwise...
 
Ghery said:
Look into clubs. You may be surprised to see how affordable they can be.
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Agreed. The right club arrangement can make flying an aircraft you cannot afford on your own very possible, and very affordable.

A situation I'm buying into very soon is an equity club. $3000 buy in, $300/mo dues (covers hangar, insurance, some reserves, etc), aircraft is a C182-P with a nice panel setup, $110/wet (works to be ~$45/hr dry depending on fuel) billed by tach time (which is about 0.8 of clock time), and availability of the aircraft is pretty good right now.

Once enough hours are logged, then I can be eligible to a Bonaza V-tail at $130/hr wet.

In my world, this is a good deal for where I'm at personally. No way could I afford the purchase and upkeep costs of these type of aircraft. The club arrangement makes the difference.
 
mchesney said:
The problem with general aviation as I see it is mostly based on cost. I'm a VERY new pilot but it took me 8 years of on/off training to get here with cost being one of the issues it took so long. I absolutely love flying...in fact, I fly in helicopters as my day job ( I don't fly them...just in them). I make a pretty good living out of it too but I still can't afford to fly regularly and certainly not as much as I'd like. I know there are cheaper options than renting, such as clubs, but it's still a lot of money. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd make new airplanes the cost of new cars...with similar upkeep costs. Imagine how that would change GA. Will it ever be possible for people like me to own a new aircraft, with the lastest and greatest safety features instead of hunting through 50 year old aircraft, that look like crap, for something semi-affordable to fly?:dunno::mad2:
Click to expand...

Buy an RV-4 buy two Edelbrock EFI systems and two crank triggered MSD Electronic Ignition systems and be done for less than the price of a new Vette.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Everyone whines about cost but wants nothing to do with cheaper options. Cost of a car, you can do that. Fast, IFR! loaded with TVs for the cost of a car not likely.
Click to expand...

Yep. There are LSA out there for less than $60k (and not heavy ultralights, but tube and fabric VFR birds).
http://www.x-airlsa.com/

But people buy the composite/EFIS/IFR equipped, fast looking birds for $130k instead. Or they get a $90k bird and option it to $130k.

Even XAir had to sexy up their bird to get people to buy. It was plain VFR minimum equipment (think a modern Piper Cub), but they had to add an EMS.
 
mchesney said:
The problem with general aviation as I see it is mostly based on cost. I'm a VERY new pilot but it took me 8 years of on/off training to get here with cost being one of the issues it took so long. I absolutely love flying...in fact, I fly in helicopters as my day job ( I don't fly them...just in them). I make a pretty good living out of it too but I still can't afford to fly regularly and certainly not as much as I'd like. I know there are cheaper options than renting, such as clubs, but it's still a lot of money. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd make new airplanes the cost of new cars...with similar upkeep costs. Imagine how that would change GA. Will it ever be possible for people like me to own a new aircraft, with the lastest and greatest safety features instead of hunting through 50 year old aircraft, that look like crap, for something semi-affordable to fly?:dunno::mad2:
Click to expand...

I went out to find a jogging suit tonight. I need a 3xLT. The damned things are over $100. WTF? Even on close out for 50% off they are too much.

I don't think I can do a damned thing about it. So my choice is to pay it, buy something else, go make more money so it hurts less. It aint getting better. Aviation and flying will never be cheaper than it is today. I got my PPL 10 years ago and av gas was half what it is today and all the other pilots were bitching about $3 gas I will never fly again blah blah blah....well now gas is $6 and most of them are still here complaining but probably flying.

Aviation is not cheap if it were then maybe I wouldn't even mess with it. If I wanted something everyone could do I would pickup a stick and 50 cents of twine and go fishing off the bridge.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I went out to find a jogging suit tonight. I need a 3xLT. The damned things are over $100. WTF? Even on close out for 50% off they are too much.

I don't think I can do a damned thing about it. So my choice is to pay it, buy something else, go make more money so it hurts less. It aint getting better. Aviation and flying will never be cheaper than it is today. I got my PPL 10 years ago and av gas was half what it is today and all the other pilots were bitching about $3 gas I will never fly again blah blah blah....well now gas is $6 and most of them are still here complaining but probably flying.

Aviation is not cheap if it were then maybe I wouldn't even mess with it. If I wanted something everyone could do I would pickup a stick and 50 cents of twine and go fishing off the bridge.
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Lame!
 
PilotAlan said:
And that's why $60k LSA aren't selling.
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According to many pilots, nothing is selling..

Used market prices are in a downfall (facing stiff modernization, upkeep and tbo rebuild prices..) new aircraft prices are approaching 400k plus.. Mooney isn't building, piper.. hah.. Cessna is in severe debt offshoring to china..

And you still don't want affordable aircraft only to make yourself feel special?
 
mchesney said:
Will it ever be possible for people like me to own a new aircraft, with the lastest and greatest safety features instead of hunting through 50 year old aircraft, that look like crap, for something semi-affordable to fly?:dunno::mad2:
Click to expand...

I've flown 3000+ hours in my 50 year old airplanes that look like crap. They've been equipped with the greatest safety feature, a pilot's brain. I didn't impress my neighbors with my shiny new airplane, but who cares - I enjoyed a lot of great flying. And besides, who can inspect your airplane when it's a thousand feet in the air.
 
supernovae said:
According to many pilots, nothing is selling..

Used market prices are in a downfall (facing stiff modernization, upkeep and tbo rebuild prices..) new aircraft prices are approaching 400k plus.. Mooney isn't building, piper.. hah.. Cessna is in severe debt offshoring to china..

And you still don't want affordable aircraft only to make yourself feel special?
Click to expand...

Pilots are about the last people I'd ask about planes selling or not, unless they happen to also be a broker or selling a nice well maintained aircraft. **** is sitting and there's a lot of **** out there for sale right now, Probably 19 out of 20 for sale on the internet sites for airframes that we typically babble on about here are ****. If they're not, they're overpriced.

Pick an airframe, check Barnstormers once a week, if you see something and think "Hey that looks nice, and it looks priced right too" It'll be gone by the next week if it really is, if it's still for sell, you can probably call the seller and figure out why.
 
bartmc said:
Pilots are about the last people I'd ask about planes selling or not, unless they happen to also be a broker or selling a nice well maintained aircraft. **** is sitting and there's a lot of **** out there for sale right now, Probably 19 out of 20 for sale on the internet sites for airframes that we typically babble on about here are ****. If they're not, they're overpriced.

Pick an airframe, check Barnstormers once a week, if you see something and think "Hey that looks nice, and it looks priced right too" It'll be gone by the next week if it really is, if it's still for sell, you can probably call the seller and figure out why.
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Can you post some of these great deals? And the fact you need a broker to sell a 50 year old plane doesn't really speak to the positives of aviation.. pilots are the ones that get the realized costs and those are the costs that matter..

Then figure in operating costs.. annuals.. hanger/tie down.. insurance and closing airports.. hanger wait lists.. oh and the only growth is high end and homebuilt. Great!

:(
 
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supernovae said:
According to many pilots, nothing is selling..

Used market prices are in a downfall (facing stiff modernization, upkeep and tbo rebuild prices..) new aircraft prices are approaching 400k plus.. Mooney isn't building, piper.. hah.. Cessna is in severe debt offshoring to china..

And you still don't want affordable aircraft only to make yourself feel special?
Click to expand...


When that thing gets to $10K, call me. That's about what it's worth. Anything more than that, I'll go buy a new 4-wheeler instead.

For that sort of money, you can get a NICE 172 that is superior in every way.

These CHEAP LSAs are going to have to beat out the nice used trainers in their price range before they gain widespread acceptance outside of the "no medical and never denied one" crowd, and they ain't even close.
 
bartmc said:
When that thing gets to $10K, call me. That's about what it's worth. Anything more than that, I'll go buy a new 4-wheeler instead.

For that sort of money, you can get a NICE 172 that is superior in every way.

These CHEAP LSAs are going to have to beat out the nice used trainers in their price range before they gain widespread acceptance outside of the "no medical and never denied one" crowd, and they ain't even close.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying this lsa or even any lsa is the solution.. I would love a modern 172.. If 60k is a budget your looking at a 30 + year 172

There is a point where that new lsa has better tco than a more beefy 172.. if not for annuals And repairs but fuel and everything else..

Somewhat surprised but the negativity though.. if it said super cub on it everyone would be drooling huh :)
 
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supernovae said:
Can you post some of these great deals? And the fact you need a broker to sell a 50 year old plane doesn't really speak to the positives of aviation.. pilots are the ones that get the realized costs and those are the costs that matter..

Then figure in operating costs.. annuals.. hanger/tie down.. insurance and closing airports.. hanger wait lists.. oh and the only growth is high end and homebuilt. Great!

:(
Click to expand...

Probably not, the good deals are by word of mouth and had between friends and a handshake at the local airport and won't show up in your internet searches, the ones that do show up, won't be there long. And that is why it will take you a year or so to find a good plane unless you're just lucky. I looked for a year for my Cherokee, then looked for a year for my Bonanza and really got insane looking for the Bonanza for the last 4 months of the search. I've had it 4 months now and still scan the internet sites and haven't seen another one that made me say "Damn I wish I would have waited for that one instead" I did however invest plenty of $ into having mechanics create lengthy squawk lists for other people's aircraft.
 
mchesney said:
The problem with general aviation as I see it is mostly based on cost. I'm a VERY new pilot but it took me 8 years of on/off training to get here with cost being one of the issues it took so long. I absolutely love flying...in fact, I fly in helicopters as my day job ( I don't fly them...just in them). I make a pretty good living out of it too but I still can't afford to fly regularly and certainly not as much as I'd like. I know there are cheaper options than renting, such as clubs, but it's still a lot of money. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd make new airplanes the cost of new cars...with similar upkeep costs. Imagine how that would change GA. Will it ever be possible for people like me to own a new aircraft, with the lastest and greatest safety features instead of hunting through 50 year old aircraft, that look like crap, for something semi-affordable to fly?:dunno::mad2:
Click to expand...
I will never afford a NEW aircraft; nor would I be silly enough to buy one.

I buy only fully depreciated, completely run out aircraft and rebuild 'em. Reman Engines, OH'd propellors, new interiors, current avionics, Paint is the LAST upgrade. Paint doesn't help me with any utility- though my paint looks okay.

I usually buy the runout a year before I anticipate needing it.

I did the economics on a Partenavia Rotax twin. That was $400/hr in DEPRECIATION alone.

No way.
 
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bartmc said:
Probably not, the good deals are by word of mouth and had between friends and a handshake at the local airport and won't show up in your internet searches, the ones that do show up, won't be there long. And that is why it will take you a year or so to find a good plane unless you're just lucky. I looked for a year for my Cherokee, then looked for a year for my Bonanza and really got insane looking for the Bonanza for the last 4 months of the search. I've had it 4 months now and still scan the internet sites and haven't seen another one that made me say "Damn I wish I would have waited for that one instead" I did however invest plenty of $ into having mechanics create lengthy squawk lists for other people's aircraft.
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Yeah, I need more patience and some close friends to network with hehe
 
supernovae said:
I'm not saying this lsa or even any lsa is the solution.. I would love a modern 172.. If 60k is a budget your looking at a 30 + year 172
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30+ year? Who cares? It's a proven airframe with a proven engine with TONS of parts and factory support, and at 30 years old, it's not out of diapers yet and my guesstimation is the 30+ year old Cessna will still be flying long after 65K LSA is turned into dish rags.

Know where I can pick up an 80 year old Staggerwing for that?
 
bbchien said:
I will never afford a NEW aircraft; not would I be silly enough to buy one.

I buy only fully depreciated, completely run out aircraft and rebuild 'em. Reman Engines, OH'd propellors, new interiors, current avionics, Paint is the LAST upgrade. Paint doesn't help me with any utility- though my paint looks okay.

I usually buy the runout a year before I anticipate needing it.

I did the economics on a Partenavia Rotax twin. That was $400/hr in DEPRECIATION alone.

No way.
Click to expand...

If I were to pay you for something like this, where would the price be?
 
bartmc said:
30+ year? Who cares? It's a proven airframe with a proven engine with TONS of parts and factory support, and at 30 years old, it's not out of diapers yet and my guesstimation is the 30+ year old Cessna will still be flying long after 65K LSA is turned into dish rags.

Know where I can pick up an 80 year old Staggerwing for that?
Click to expand...

In 10 years time you could buy a replacement lsa cheaper than the realized costs of that 172..

Last I checked with the Cessna flying club solo ownership and operating costs are about 130hr * 50 hr year average.. * 10 years = 65k..

These lsa aircraft are anything but groundbreaking technology wise and with Cessna's debt burden who knows what their future is.

I'd rather still have a 152 vs this specific lsa.. or maybe a couple year old flight design.
 
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supernovae said:
Yeah, I need more patience and some close friends to network with hehe
Click to expand...

I actually found my Cherokee, searching the google cache and found a deleted eBay ad and the plane wasn't officially on the market (Yeah, I know),
 
bartmc said:
When that thing gets to $10K, call me. That's about what it's worth.
...
For that sort of money, you can get a NICE 172 that is superior in every way.

These CHEAP LSAs are going to have to beat out the nice used trainers in their price range before they gain widespread acceptance outside of the "no medical and never denied one" crowd, and they ain't even close.
Click to expand...

supernovae said:
I'm not saying this lsa or even any lsa is the solution.. I would love a modern 172.. If 60k is a budget your looking at a 30 + year 172
...
Somewhat surprised but the negativity though.. if it said super cub on it everyone would be drooling huh :)
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That's the thing. People said "Where's the modern version of the Cub? VFR, low, slow, and cheap?" (An X-Air is priced at about the cost of an inflation adjusted Cub).
But instead, when comes time to write a check, they DON'T actually want a Cub, they want a 40 year old Skyhawk (or Comanche, or Bonanza).

There are a few people that want a Cub-type low performance, smell the grass, 4gph fun. But not as many as claimed that's what they wanted.

Never mind that we are comparing a NEW $60k airplane to a 30 year old Skyhawk (as opposed to a new, $400k Skyhawk).
Compare the three year old X-Air to the 30 year old Skyhawk, and suddenly the numbers look a lot better.

Here's an 7-year-old Evektor Sportstar with 590hrs for $43k. How's that 30 year old Skyhawk look now? Or better comparison, a $180,000 seven-year-old Skyhawk with 600 SMOH.
 
I'd be interested in owning a sport at this cost and going club for something more beefy. I could do a fun mission of Austin to my dads hanger at soaring club of Houston in good time in an lsa and enjoy the scenery a bit better than sitting in traffic on 290 :)
 
bbchien said:
Which aircraft- the Partenavia- or the runout, re-engined FIKI Seneca II?
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Either :) with labor being in mass quantities unless I get my own a&p or go experimental I'd be looking at paying someone to do what you do.

Btw, I am tempted by that ch750 or 801 homebuilt but I severely doubt my free time yet to build,,
 
PilotAlan said:
That's the thing. People said "Where's the modern version of the Cub? VFR, low, slow, and cheap?" (An X-Air is priced at about the cost of an inflation adjusted Cub).
But instead, when comes time to write a check, they DON'T actually want a Cub, they want a 40 year old Skyhawk (or Comanche, or Bonanza).

There are a few people that want a Cub-type low performance, smell the grass, 4gph fun. But not as many as claimed that's what they wanted.

Never mind that we are comparing a NEW $60k airplane to a 30 year old Skyhawk (as opposed to a new, $400k Skyhawk).
Compare the three year old X-Air to the 30 year old Skyhawk, and suddenly the numbers look a lot better.

Here's an 7-year-old Evektor Sportstar with 590hrs for $43k. How's that 30 year old Skyhawk look now? Or better comparison, a $180,000 seven-year-old Skyhawk with 600 SMOH.
Click to expand...

The issue is that you can compare a NEW $60K airplane to a 30 year old Skyhawk, and probably SHOULD compare when purchasing an aircraft and also consider that in a line up of planes for sale, the Skyhawk is probably going to be the first one to go.

I'm 33 years old, I fully expect there to be 1950s era 172s flying around somewhere in America during my funeral procession. A flash in the pan $65K LSA? Not so much.
 
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supernovae said:
Either :) with labor being in mass quantities unless I get my own a&p or go experimental I'd be looking at paying someone to do what you do.

Btw, I am tempted by that ch750 or 801 homebuilt but I severely doubt my free time yet to build,,
Click to expand...
Well, the Partenavia was $595,000.

I had about $132,000 in my Seneca II, before I did both engines over the last 2 years. Which, now has 150 and 280 hour engines and props, Boots that have no patches, FIKI, decent paint, leather interior, MX20 + GNS 430W, working coupled CIII autopilot (alt. hold), upgraded heater (for the flight levels), and the Extended Squitter.

The Partenavia burns 10 gph (both engines). The Seneca burns 18 but carries a lot more (950 in the cabin vs 600) and is 30 knots faster.
 
If 30 year old 172s count what about that chief for 10k? Now we are less then the cheapest new cars. What GA really needs are affordable jet packs, we could keep them in the garden shed and blast off from the backyard, no runways no hangar or tie down fees. Rocket off to the pancakes.
 
ClimbnSink said:
If 30 year old 172s count what about that chief for 10k? Now we are less then the cheapest new cars. What GA really needs are affordable jet packs, we could keep them in the garden shed and blast off from the backyard, no runways no hangar or tie down fees. Rocket off to the pancakes.
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I was sold until you mentioned pancakes. Unfortunately, the last pancakes I flew 200 miles for, cost me $30 bucks when I got there. Can you throw in the pancakes for free?
 
bartmc said:
I was sold until you mentioned pancakes. Unfortunately, the last pancakes I flew 200 miles for, cost me $30 bucks when I got there. Can you throw in the pancakes for free?
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Dude we will have jetpacks I'm sure there will be a TSOd pancake skillet attachment, you could cook your own while jetpacking around.:D
 
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