How bad did I screw up?

Kritchlow said:
That would be nasty. He may have busted a tire speed.
Every jet I've flown so far has a 10 kt tail landing limitation.
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Is that a limitation on the jet or the company operations manual?

He did not jump hard on the brakes. It was his personal airplane and the landing looked really normal. Even in my best bush days I don't think I could have done the same thing.
 
Zeldman said:
Is that a limitation on the jet or the company operations manual?

He did not jump hard on the brakes. It was his personal airplane and the landing looked really normal. Even in my best bush days I don't think I could have done the same thing.
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Usually a limitation on jets. 10 kts on the CRJ series I flew.
 
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Zeldman said:
Is that a limitation on the jet or the company operations manual?

He did not jump hard on the brakes. It was his personal airplane and the landing looked really normal. Even in my best bush days I don't think I could have done the same thing.
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I am 99% certain it's a manufacturer limitation, although it's hard to tell on the airline aircraft because you only get a copy of the company limits. Some takeoff limits go to 15 however.
That said, I'm typed in several citations and by AFM it is 10 kts.
 
Every person I’ve spoken to that has several type ratings in transport category planes have said the 10kt tailwind limitation is common.
 
Not a big deal at all, the only issue was you didn't know what was happening, lots of folks land with tailwinds for different operational reasons, actually pre solo I have my students do tailwind landings.

Nothing damaged, something learned, that's that whole "license to learn" part :)
 
jordane93 said:
Every person I’ve spoken to that has several type ratings in transport category planes have said the 10kt tailwind limitation is common.
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It’s pretty common but not all limiting the 757 at my company is a 15kt tailwind limitation, but meanwhile my friend at another carrier has a 10kt tailwind limit on the same plane so sometimes the companies do bring it down. but seeing as most other jets are 10kts you’ll never really see more than that

As for the OP, good lesson but more important good practice! You May chose to fly to a large towered airport one day that for one reason or another is landing with a tailwind, or even go to an airport where landings or takeoffs may only be authorized in one direction. so it’s good to practice and recognize how to compensate, and as you did go around if it doesn’t look good
 
I didn't read all the replies so someone may have said this, but I'll let you beat yourself up a little because it shouldn't have taken you FOUR go around to realize something was wrong. You could have peeled out of the patter and analyzed the situation a little. "Hmmm, I'm obviously coming in too fast since I'm floating down the runway, but my approach speeds are what I normally use. What could cause that? Ah Ha! I forgot to check the wind!" Coulda happened that way.

But, no bent metal, no bent people, a little ego damage, and a big lesson learned. It's all good
 
Kritchlow said:
I am 99% certain it's a manufacturer limitation, although it's hard to tell on the airline aircraft because you only get a copy of the company limits. Some takeoff limits go to 15 however.
That said, I'm typed in several citations and by AFM it is 10 kts.
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Ok, thanks. I really did not know.
 
Sounds like you were fine until you confessed it on the internet. :)

Now you know know you can safely land with a tail wind. <--- That's not to say you should PLAN to do so.

True life: I was going to KSUS and got a bit confused. I turned to the wrong direction on downwind. Tower advised and I replied I'd do a right 270 to the correct downwind. They said I could continue if I chose, winds were xxx at 7kts. I took the 7 kts tailwind and got on the ground.

YMMV
 
Back to the OP's situation, "Live and learn."
My "live and learn" moment:
Lesson with Student Pilot, post solo. I trusted him and was filling out some paperwork while he did the run-up. We taxied out to the runway and began takeoff. Slow acceleration and we weren't airborne by mid-field. I called to abort the take-off and taxi back. Turns out, during the mag check he didn't go all the way back to "Both." Lesson: Trust but verify.

Secondary Lesson: Never underestimate a student's ability to find ways to kill you.
 
jsparks said:
My question is, how big of a deal is this really. I have beat myself up over this for almost a week now.
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I did that more than once. Good news is that now that you know what it feels like, you won't likely wait so long to wave it off and go around for a better runway.
 
Ravioli said:
Sounds like you were fine until you confessed it on the internet. :)

Now you know know you can safely land with a tail wind. <--- That's not to say you should PLAN to do so.

True life: I was going to KSUS and got a bit confused. I turned to the wrong direction on downwind. Tower advised and I replied I'd do a right 270 to the correct downwind. They said I could continue if I chose, winds were xxx at 7kts. I took the 7 kts tailwind and got on the ground.

YMMV
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I'm guessing with a tower, you had a nice long runway. With plenty of room and a little patience you can coax it to a stop. But, on a 2500' runway with a crappy go-around, 7 knots can hurt you bad.
 
jsparks said:
It is with great embarrassment that I ask this....

I recently got current after a 5 year absence from flying and have flown about 6 hours with my instructor during and even some after my FR. Last weekend I took a buddy up flying just to get in the air.

Where the screw up happens.... We departed the airport with zero winds on runway 23. Flew around circling the county just looking around and headed back to land after about 1 hour. My intention was to do a couple of touch and gos to practice a bit. I flew the pattern as I have 100+ times and coming in on final about 100ft from the ground it felt like the plane would not settle any further and I kept being pushed down the runway. I chose to go around and try again. went around and tried again.....same thing. Trying to keep cool, I attempted to extend my final and got closer to feeling comfortable but the same thing happens, descended normal everything was lining up and about 50-100 ft from the runway, we started sailing again. Set up for the FOURTH attempt and greased the landing but roll out was a little longer than normal but I was able to exit the normal taxi way. On the taxi my buddy was commenting on go arounds (not being a jerk, but wanted to understand what was happening) and right at that second something caught my eye....it was the wind sock standing at complete attention directly down runway 23...... I totally failed to observe the sock in the pattern and landed with what I later found out was a 10kt tail wind. Seemed strange that the only altitude I felt the effect of the winds was less than 100ft. I know I screwed up and lesson learned. oh and it was over 90* outside.

My question is, how big of a deal is this really. I have beat myself up over this for almost a week now.
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Bottom line.. you effed up. Should have dawned on you after the second time to recheck winds.
Egg on your face for being a low time pilot. That's exactly why they call it a license to learn.
 
Years ago I did a couple of full stop-taxi backs at FSK (Fort Scott, KS).

Some kind of front was moving in, no wx just a wind shift.

My first landing I went around because I saw another aircraft heading my way and wasn't sure what he was going to do. I can't remember why I didn't go ahead and land, but something didn't seem right. Turns out it was a large scale RC hat fooled me, he was in an RC area, so no problem, but it looked real and was in a position that made it look like a head-on was in my future. Winds were off my 1-2 O'Clock. I went around and landed, taxied back and did another circuit. I had a heckuva time with the next landing and went around. The wind had shifted to my 4-5 O'Clock. Fun times.
 
Do you think the wind was more or less constant through the descent in the pattern? Or was there shear, a low level change in speed/direction? Would it be evident in the pattern?

If there was no sock, how would you determine wind speed/direction.

What conditions would a downwind landing be preferred? Slope can be a big reason.

Do you you always check before takeoff?

Wind awareness is part of why tailwheel experience can be so valuable... and humiliating.



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What is the speed you shoot for on final? Maybe he generally flies in too fast. It's much harder to tell the difference if you have that habit!
 
If your airspeeds were normal for the pattern your descent should have been normal but you'd recognize the ground passing by a little fast. I've done my share of downwind takeoffs and landings and nothing in the story makes sense to me. Turning base to final with a tailwind is hard not to notice.
 
No harm, no foul, and confession is good for the soul.

Not to hijack the thread, but it is my habit to always overfly a non-towered field before maneuvering to enter the pattern. I do so at 500’ above pattern altitude, but a case can be made for higher.

One of the reasons to do so is to check out the windsock. Not saying one MUST fly like I do, but that simple step would have nipped your particular problem in the bud, so to speak.
 
Stewartb said:
If your airspeeds were normal for the pattern your descent should have been normal but you'd recognize the ground passing by a little fast. I've done my share of downwind takeoffs and landings and nothing in the story makes sense to me. Turning base to final with a tailwind is hard not to notice.
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Depends on the amount of experience.

Tim

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FastEddieB said:
No harm, no foul, and confession is good for the soul.

Not to hijack the thread, but it is my habit to always overfly a non-towered field before maneuvering to enter the pattern. I do so at 500’ above pattern altitude, but a case can be made for higher.

One of the reasons to do so is to check out the windsock. Not saying one MUST fly like I do, but that simple step would have nipped your particular problem in the bud, so to speak.
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I agree wholeheartedly if I'm approaching a quiet field and there is no AWOS. Otherwise, if there are a couple of folks on CTAF landing on a particular runway, I might tend to believe in the "wisdom of crowds" as some people love to say these days. Though that can bite you in the butt at times. Still, I will take a look at the sock as soon as I can to confirm the runway choice.
 
wilkersk said:
I'm guessing with a tower, you had a nice long runway. With plenty of room and a little patience you can coax it to a stop. But, on a 2500' runway with a crappy go-around, 7 knots can hurt you bad.
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7485 x 150 and 0 x-wind component. Pretty good safety margin with a normal landing distance of 500' at max weight.

NOTE - Not endorsing the practice in any way.
 
Bill Watson said:
Do you think the wind was more or less constant through the descent in the pattern? Or was there shear, a low level change in speed/direction? Would it be evident in the pattern?

If there was no sock, how would you determine wind speed/direction.

What conditions would a downwind landing be preferred? Slope can be a big reason.

Do you you always check before takeoff?
...
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I think I was confused because in the pattern, all legs and turns felt normal and seemed to be at normal ground speed. My ground speed and "floating" didn't happen until about 100 AGL.

Moving forward (because I will always be checking wind from now on!) I'll look to dust, smoke or flags to detect wind speed and direction.

Yes, I do check wind before takeoff. It was calm on takeoff as stated.

FloridaPilot said:
What is the speed you shoot for on final? Maybe he generally flies in too fast. It's much harder to tell the difference if you have that habit!
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1968 C172 my CFI had me shoot for 80 (MPH). I was consistently at 80 on base and final, glide path was good until closer to ground.

Stewartb said:
If your airspeeds were normal for the pattern your descent should have been normal but you'd recognize the ground passing by a little fast. I've done my share of downwind takeoffs and landings and nothing in the story makes sense to me. Turning base to final with a tailwind is hard not to notice.
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Air speeds were normal and descent was normal....made turn to final over the same farm house and was lined right up with the numbers the whole way down. Sight picture was familiar and only picked up ground speed whe I crossed the fence.....


I know my error and appreciate all of the feed back. Is it common on a hot day to have the winds only close to the ground?
 
jsparks said:
I think I was confused because in the pattern, all legs and turns felt normal and seemed to be at normal ground speed. My ground speed and "floating" didn't happen until about 100 AGL.

Moving forward (because I will always be checking wind from now on!) I'll look to dust, smoke or flags to detect wind speed and direction.

Yes, I do check wind before takeoff. It was calm on takeoff as stated.



1968 C172 my CFI had me shoot for 80 (MPH). I was consistently at 80 on base and final, glide path was good until closer to ground.



Air speeds were normal and descent was normal....made turn to final over the same farm house and was lined right up with the numbers the whole way down. Sight picture was familiar and only picked up ground speed whe I crossed the fence.....


I know my error and appreciate all of the feed back. Is it common on a hot day to have the winds only close to the ground?
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I dunno about that, but it's common to not be able to tell there is a wind until close to the ground, especially if it's aligned with the runway.
 
jsparks said:
I think I was confused because in the pattern, all legs and turns felt normal and seemed to be at normal ground speed. My ground speed and "floating" didn't happen until about 100 AGL.

Moving forward (because I will always be checking wind from now on!) I'll look to dust, smoke or flags to detect wind speed and direction.

Yes, I do check wind before takeoff. It was calm on takeoff as stated.



1968 C172 my CFI had me shoot for 80 (MPH). I was consistently at 80 on base and final, glide path was good until closer to ground.



Air speeds were normal and descent was normal....made turn to final over the same farm house and was lined right up with the numbers the whole way down. Sight picture was familiar and only picked up ground speed whe I crossed the fence.....


I know my error and appreciate all of the feed back. Is it common on a hot day to have the winds only close to the ground?
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Is it common on a hot day to have the winds only close to the ground? Common, no, but it happens. As a glider guy what comes to mind is local thermal activity. If the sun is shining and it's between say 10am and 6-7 pm, a thermal anywhere on or near the airport can upset the best laid plans. A thermal taking off vertically can cause a tailwind, an updraft and a headwind, all within the course of a half mile or less and on a day with nothing but light and variable winds. Think the opposite of a downdraft. But I'm not saying it happened, just saying it can.

Sorry if it seems like an interrogation... again you did just fine. The only thing I question is "I know my error". First of all it's not clear that you made any. You shared because you are a bit confused by what happened and so am I. Just file it all away for future flights and keep learning.

BTW, the lesson I'm taking away from this is that I should always be willing to go around if things don't seem right. A bad habit I carry around is treating airplane landings like glider landings, landings where you absolutely, positively, must land the ship in a single pass, even if an airport is nowhere to be found. Always learning...

Happy Flying!




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I doubt there was more wind down low. Your perception of ground speed increases as altitude decreases.
 
Bill Watson said:
Is it common on a hot day to have the winds only close to the ground? Common, no, but it happens. As a glider guy what comes to mind is local thermal activity. If the sun is shining and it's between say 10am and 6-7 pm, a thermal anywhere on or near the airport can upset the best laid plans. A thermal taking off vertically can cause a tailwind, an updraft and a headwind, all within the course of a half mile or less and on a day with nothing but light and variable winds. Think the opposite of a downdraft. But I'm not saying it happened, just saying it can.

Sorry if it seems like an interrogation... again you did just fine. The only thing I question is "I know my error". First of all it's not clear that you made any. You shared because you are a bit confused by what happened and so am I. Just file it all away for future flights and keep learning.

BTW, the lesson I'm taking away from this is that I should always be willing to go around if things don't seem right. A bad habit I carry around is treating airplane landings like glider landings, landings where you absolutely, positively, must land the ship in a single pass, even if an airport is nowhere to be found. Always learning...

Happy Flying!




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Thank you for this. I do remember speaking with my passenger when we were putting around the county about really being able to feel the thermals as we would transition in and out of could cover as well as over lighter and darker fields....

As for the error....I did not check the sock while in the pattern and it was clearly blowing once I was down and taxiing.
 
jsparks said:
As for the error....I did not check the sock while in the pattern and it was clearly blowing once I was down and taxiing.
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It's worth noting that at controlled fields, where the pilot is assumed to have current winds from ATIS or AWOS, the tower will often give winds when or short final, particularly for transient/IFR arrivals. The learned wisdom there is that the the most current winds are the most important. On windy days, pilots find a brief history of wind changes is even better. And on the really bad ones, the PIREP you get from the plane ahead of you is best .



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Bill Watson said:
If there was no sock, how would you determine wind speed/direction.
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Surprised no one has mentioned this. There are several ways to get an indication of what the wind is doing without resorting to a windsock or other on field wind indicators.

The easiest is probably smoke. Looking at ripples on the water can indicate wind direction well. Tall grass, leaves on trees. All can show wind direction. And don't forget about flags. If all else fails, comparing your GPS ground speed with your airspeed can give you a pretty good idea if you've got a tail or head wind. Some will even calculate it for you, provided they have the appropriate inputs.
 
My 496 with Sirius wx subscription has a field that shows reported winds at the nearest reporting point it can find. I find that very handy enroute and if no other means are available to show surface winds.
 
Where I fly I watch tree tops and water bodies to evaluate local winds and gusts but I always have a general sense about the wind direction and velocity while flying. I suspect the OP will start paying attention after this. That's how we learn.
 
Bill Watson said:
It's worth noting that at controlled fields, where the pilot is assumed to have current winds from ATIS or AWOS, the tower will often give winds when or short final, particularly for transient/IFR arrivals. The learned wisdom there is that the the most current winds are the most important. On windy days, pilots find a brief history of wind changes is even better. And on the really bad ones, the PIREP you get from the plane ahead of you is best .



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Our tower was giving winds on short final one day. They were picking up and getting gusty, but it wasn't yet time for ASOS to update. Even with that info I had a heckuva time staying lined up. After I got down I asked for a wind check. The new wind numbers were much stronger. I was glad I got the new numbers AFTER I landed or I'm not sure I could have done it.
 
jsparks said:
I totally failed to observe the sock in the pattern and landed with what I later found out was a 10kt tail wind. ... My question is, how big of a deal is this really.
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This could be a big deal if you didn't have a long runway or if you were in a conventional gear airplane. For me, 10 knots is enough to eat 1800 feet (or more) instead of 1200 feet. In a taildragger, it's generally possible to land with tailwind, but you have to know that you are, then add some power below, say, 20 mph in this case. Absent of these circumstances, you should be fine. That said, remember that other traffic is going to be rolling against the wind and you don't want to meet them on the runway.

P.S. One instance where you land with tailwind and you are as helpless as taildragger with a castering tailwheel and no engine is doing it in a glider after a rope break. The only thing you can do is to stop as hard as possible and hope you don't veer into a runway light.
 
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I’ve been to strips that only had one way in and out. Doesn’t matter what the wind is there. Have also flown into towered field with active runway having pretty stiff tailwind. Have even questioned tower and they still have had me land with tailwind. Not really big deal with a mile to get er stopped.
 
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