Hood experience

dell30rb

dell30rb

Final Approach
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Ren
I need about 20 more hours of hood time and about the same amount of cross country time to get to the point I can really start pounding away at the IR. I'd like to do this as inexpensively as possible (don't we all) so I'd like to grab a safety pilot and a 152 and knock these hours out together. Is this doable? Any issues if the 152 is not an IFR airplane?

I've heard its not advisable to do much of your hood time with a safety pilot vs. instructor, but a safety pilot is free and I plan on giving myself a workout while under the hood.
 
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Do not do that. You will end up spending more money with the CFI unteaching you things you taught yourself badly.

Here's what you do, go get a CFII for 10 hours, THEN do the safety pilot thing (while doing XC), then go back to the CFI to finish up. You need 15 hours of CFII time anyway. Might as well do it first and get it right.
 
dell30rb said:
Ed, that sounds like a much better plan.

Glad I asked
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I think you might find that after the first 10 hours with the CFII you will want to keep flying with and paying for the CFII. There is a hell of a lot to learn for an instrument rating, and in my opinion, done right, it really does take about 40 hours.
 
jesse said:
you will want to keep flying with and paying for the CFII.
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Says the CFII :goofy:

I understand there is a ton of info to learn, but I've had alot of success learning from reading and practicing with a sim, hopefully I can really apply myself here and keep my costs down.
 
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jesse said:
I think you might find that after the first 10 hours with the CFII you will want to keep flying with and paying for the CFII. There is a hell of a lot to learn for an instrument rating, and in my opinion, done right, it really does take about 40 hours.
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40.2 in my case. All with a a CFII. Oddly enough the best IR training was not in the plane with a hood on, but the 10+ hours on the FTD.
 
dell30rb said:
Says the CFII :goofy:

I understand there is a ton of info to learn, but I've had alot of success learning from reading and practicing with a sim, hopefully I can really apply myself here and keep my costs down.
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How about from a non-CFII? I just finished my IR in June. It really does take 40 hours. Don't skimp.

Plus, if you're with a CFII, you can go into actual if you want (etc.). There is a LOT to learn. I think you'll just end up costing yourself more money in the end.
 
jason said:
How about from a non-CFII? I just finished my IR in June. It really does take 40 hours. Don't skimp.

Plus, if you're with a CFII, you can go into actual if you want (etc.). There is a LOT to learn. I think you'll just end up costing yourself more money in the end.
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Ditto. I had about 9+ hours of actual during my IR training (though I dragged it out and had a lot more than 40 hours) which was invaluable. I didn't regret even one of those hours, and was totally prepared not only for my checkride, but for getting my ticket wet after that.
 
What everyone who knows their stuff above said:

It's not about the money, and listen to what the instructors in here tell you! Rushing through the process: negative! Learning the skills needed to SURVIVE in actual takes either a super concentrated course, or real quality hours over the long run, based on your own skills, learning style, and you instructor. Nothing, and I mean nothing is better than getting into the actual, period. That will save your bacon.
 
dell30rb said:
Says the CFII :goofy:

I understand there is a ton of info to learn, but I've had alot of success learning from reading and practicing with a sim, hopefully I can really apply myself here and keep my costs down.
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It's false economy. Much greater value in finding the best most experienced CFII and getting them for as much time as you can. We (as a species) tend to teach ourselves shortcuts that can bite under circumstances we haven't considered. If you go the Safety Pilot route, make sure it is a high quality high time IR pilot.

This is your primacy training, when it's all going wrong, this is what it's all going to come down to. This is where you get your survival tools. If you're looking to cheap on training now, there is little chance you will seek recurrent training, so make sure you get the very best initial training you can, and/or always fly instruments with SVT.
 
I know there is no replacement for experience with a cfII but i'm not the type who wants to cut corners and never seek recurrent training. I consider reading and sim practice on my own to be a form of recurrent training and a way to accelerate my path to a rating
 
dell30rb said:
I know there is no replacement for experience with a cfII but i'm not the type who wants to cut corners and never seek recurrent training. I consider reading and sim practice on my own to be a form of recurrent training and a way to accelerate my path to a rating
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I definitely understand where you are coming from, but I'm not sure you got the point of the above posts.

Unless you have SOME time with a CFII, you won't know what to practice, and how to practice it correctly. You say you have had success with the Sim, but who is guaging this success? You, with no instrument training?

Picture this: I am an engineer. My boss gives me a complex project and then he has an emergency out of town and leaves. I think I'm making great progress while he's gone, and am excited to show him what I have, and then he comes back and says "no, this is all wrong. You have to do X, Y AND Z, because, AA will skew the results this way"

That is exactly whats going to happen with instrument training if you're trying to teach yourself.


I'd have to agree that you really should go get SOME IFR basics with a CFII before you practice too much on your own in advance. Do what you said - don't cut corners. Go get some basics, and then practice on the sim for a while.
 
dell30rb said:
I know there is no replacement for experience with a cfII but i'm not the type who wants to cut corners and never seek recurrent training. I consider reading and sim practice on my own to be a form of recurrent training and a way to accelerate my path to a rating
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I apologize in advance for my comment to follow, and if the POA board wishes to ban me forever for what I am about to say, then, so be it:

You are only accelerating your path to an NTSB report.
 
dell30rb said:
Ed, that sounds like a much better plan.

Glad I asked
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I got the point, I have my first instrument lesson with my cfII on thursday this week.

I plan on taking a lesson, practicing what I learned in a sim between lessons, and also reading up on what we will be covering for the next lesson.

If I get my rating with fewer training hours because I was pro-active and studied / practiced between lessons am I really accelerating my path to an NTSB report? give me a break

You should know that my instructor won't send me for my checkride unless he is sure I am ready and well trained. He is very qualified and knows me well as he trained me for the private rating. He has thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of experience, as he has been a pilot for 55 years, an instructor for 45
 
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DutchessFlier said:
I apologize in advance for my comment to follow, and if the POA board wishes to ban me forever for what I am about to say, then, so be it:

You are only accelerating your path to an NTSB report.
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You quoted me in this post as saying that reading and practicing in a simulator are forms of recurrent training, and a way to accelerate my path to a rating. I also said in that post that I understand CFII time is valuable.

Honestly can you say that reading is not a form of recurrent training? How about a simulator? I'm sure that reading and simulators are both forms of recurrent training. Just a form of training, not the only way of training.

By reading and studying books written by experienced pilots, I believe I am making myself a better pilot. Can you deny this?
 
dell30rb said:
You quoted me in this post as saying that reading and practicing in a simulator are forms of recurrent training, and a way to accelerate my path to a rating. I also said in that post that I understand CFII time is valuable.

Honestly can you say that reading is not a form of recurrent training? How about a simulator? I'm sure that reading and simulators are both forms of recurrent training. Just a form of training, not the only way of training.

By reading and studying books written by experienced pilots, I believe I am making myself a better pilot. Can you deny this?
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Do as you wish...reading books, sim work, BS'ing with pilots on boards such as this, looking at planes flying overhead, etc etc...all have their place in whatever path you personally elect to take, that's your decision.

Don't read more into what I have posted here, other than this: listen to what the experienced CFII's have told you about primacy of experience, developing habits in the plane with a CFII, not a friend as a safety pilot. Instrument work, in the airplane and in IMC, the more actual you can get, the better, is a whole 'nother world.

Look again at your original posting from a third person perspective, and you can see why the reaction has been what it is. Recurrent training is not what you are after here. Primary training is, but you do as you wish.

Best of luck to you.
 
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Do it right - since you've secured the services of a good instructor, follow his or her counsel on this issue.

Like others have said, this is not trivial stuff, and the first time you are All Alone in the clag, you'll understand why it matters just that much.

Be safe, and let us know how it goes!
 
dell30rb said:
I got the point, I have my first instrument lesson with my cfII on thursday this week.

I plan on taking a lesson, practicing what I learned in a sim between lessons, and also reading up on what we will be covering for the next lesson.
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You're going to need more than one lesson before you start practicing. You need 15 hours of training time anyway. So take 5 hours of training from your CFII, then go practice all you want.
 
dell30rb said:
I got the point, I have my first instrument lesson with my cfII on thursday this week.

I plan on taking a lesson, practicing what I learned in a sim between lessons, and also reading up on what we will be covering for the next lesson.
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Good plan as long as you limit what you practice to what you've learned.

If I get my rating with fewer training hours because I was pro-active and studied / practiced between lessons am I really accelerating my path to an NTSB report? give me a break
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I think the person who wrote that was being a bit overconcerned. The impression you gave was that you were going to grab a hood and a safety pilot, and get about 20 hours of simulated instrument time before getting any training with an instrument instructor. Based on my 1500 hours of instrument training given, that would decelerate your path to your instrument rating. OTOH, the plan you suggest above is a good one -- learn, then practice what you learned between lessons.
 
Non IRed pilot here:

Listen to the IIs. They have a lot more experience with this stuff.

At the bare minimum - get a bunch of CFII dual time, then practice. My opinions are different from some of the CFIIs re: flying all of the time with a CFII, but I don't have my IR yet, so until I do - listen to them.
 
When I started my IR training I had grand visions of only flying 15 hours with my CFII and then doing the rest of the hood time with a safety pilot.
It turned out that I needed to do all 40 hours with the CFII. I'm no slouch when it comes to studying either. I taught myself the G-430 buttonology and probably put in 200 hours of ground self-study.
There's a lot to learn to get an IR.
Mastering control of the plane with reference to instruments only took about 5 hours, its all the rest that takes a while.
 
dell30rb said:
I know there is no replacement for experience with a cfII but i'm not the type who wants to cut corners and never seek recurrent training. I consider reading and sim practice on my own to be a form of recurrent training and a way to accelerate my path to a rating
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Sure, you need all of that as well. It's not "either or", it's "everything you have". IR is a lot and you have to have it right. You have 40 hrs in a plane and another 400 studying and reading and such.
 
Henning said:
Sure, you need all of that as well. It's not "either or", it's "everything you have". IR is a lot and you have to have it right. You have 40 hrs in a plane and another 400 studying and reading :hairraise:and such.
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WHAT!?!?!?!
Certainly you exagerate?
 
Jaybird180 said:
WHAT!?!?!?!

Certainly you exagerate?
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I easily spent 80-100 hours just studying for the written. Another 20ish on the sim at home. Hell, our pre-checkride study session was about 4 hours of ground. That doesn't even count the time that I spent reading the Instrument Flying Handbook or the Instrument Procedures Handbook...or the hours that I spent studying different approach plates in Foreflight. If I was watching TV and saw/heard a city/town mentioned, I'd grab my iPad and pull up the approach plates to see how I'd get into that city.

It really is an immersive rating. Much more so that the PPL, IMHO. I went into it with my eyes wide open...but I think it still took me by surprise how much time I spent thinking about it.
 
I don't think 200 hours of non-flying study is out of the question.
 
dell30rb said:
I need about 20 more hours of hood time and about the same amount of cross country time to get to the point I can really start pounding away at the IR. I'd like to do this as inexpensively as possible (don't we all) so I'd like to grab a safety pilot and a 152 and knock these hours out together. Is this doable? Any issues if the 152 is not an IFR airplane?

I've heard its not advisable to do much of your hood time with a safety pilot vs. instructor, but a safety pilot is free and I plan on giving myself a workout while under the hood.
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Which part of the country are U in?? I am looking for someone who wants share the cost & fly safety to build X-C time
 
Henning said:
Sure, you need all of that as well. It's not "either or", it's "everything you have". IR is a lot and you have to have it right. You have 40 hrs in a plane and another 400 studying and reading and such.
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How many of your IR students needed that much ground study time, Henning? I don't think any of mine did. I think 100 hours is more typical.
 
Not a CFII, not (yet) IR, but...

The advice to start with a CFII and learn it right is spot on. Learn it right and you won't have to re-learn it (as much). Here's what has taken me so long (years) to get where I am (IR check ride is on Wednesday).

1. I've started and stopped the training too many times. Why? A combination of changing instructors, an instructor being unavailable for periods of time (flew helicopters for the Army and they kept sending him to Afghanistan), health problems causing loss of medical a couple times and travel and weather getting in the way (need to earn a living and the weather stinks a good part of the year around here).

2. Changed aircraft. The 172 originally was straight steam gauges. Worked on it for a while. Changed to the 182 when the 172 had the Garmin 430W installed. Wanted to learn on instruments without learning a new box. Then shifted back to the 172 when I realized that the 430W really would be an advantage.

3. Took too long learning the 430W. Fixed that this summer by getting the King Schools DVD class. I can't recommend it highly enough. Earlier this year it was a struggle to keep up with the plane and the 430 at the same time. The 430 is second nature now. I love that box. It's almost like cheating. :D

I have hardly any time with a safety pilot. Virtually all my instrument time (simulated and, of course, actual) is with a CFII in the right seat. Yes, I pay more that way, but I think I learn more, as well. And that's the whole idea. Learn how to fly by reference to instruments safely and in a way that won't make ATC mad.

Oh, and speaking of ATC, it's amusing to hear the relief in their voice when you say that the next approach will terminate in a landing or cancellation of the instrument clearance and you'll be out of their hair. :D I'm sure I heard that today when I told SEA approach that we'd cancel after the NDB 35 into TIW and fly home to OLM VFR. :D Of course, he thinks he was relieved. I was even more so. It was downright relaxing to take off the foggles, point the nose home and just fly.
 
Ron Levy said:
How many of your IR students needed that much ground study time, Henning? I don't think any of mine did. I think 100 hours is more typical.
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In the middle of the IR right now. Have a great instructor . . . very seasoned. Flying 2-3 times a week (with a couple of weeks cut out when schedules don't work). Doing some of the dual in a Redbird simulator.

I consider myself to be fairly intelligent and able to absorb detailed, complex information at a higher than average rate (graduate degrees from Rice University). I also work full time and have a family and a reasonably active social life.

I figure it will take the full 40 to be ready for the ride. In that time (12-18 weeks given schedule snafus, etc.), I will have compiled 10-20 hours per week in non-cockpit study (reading, studying plates, etc.).

200 hours or more of non-flying study seems pretty standard, because . . .

I . . . want . . . to . . . have . . . this . . . stuff . . . nailed! :dunno:
 
I had my first lesson today, .8 hours logged under the hood and got in all sorts of turns, climbs, descents, climbing turns and descents, tracking a VOR and flew down the ILS. Going very well!
 
Ghery said:
It was downright relaxing to take off the foggles, point the nose home and just fly.
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Your CFII let's you "take off the foggles, point the nose home, and just fly????" Mine leaves me under the hood/foggles until he's vectored me into the pattern at home base! By which time it's 100+ degrees and we're bouncing around like a beachball at a Train concert!" :mad2:
 
Rndmtrvlr said:
Your CFII let's you "take off the foggles, point the nose home, and just fly????" Mine leaves me under the hood/foggles until he's vectored me into the pattern at home base! By which time it's 100+ degrees and we're bouncing around like a beachball at a Train concert!" :mad2:
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Yeah I get that treatment too. Even as a private student getting my 3 hours we would always maximize the hood time
 
dell30rb said:
Yeah I get that treatment too. Even as a private student getting my 3 hours we would always maximize the hood time
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Hate to show my age here, but when I got my private ticket there was no 3 hour requirement . . . I had a total of .8 hours under the hood when I started my IR a couple of weeks ago. So I'm a late bloomer . . . sue me. :rofl:
 
Rndmtrvlr said:
Your CFII let's you "take off the foggles, point the nose home, and just fly????" Mine leaves me under the hood/foggles until he's vectored me into the pattern at home base! By which time it's 100+ degrees and we're bouncing around like a beachball at a Train concert!" :mad2:
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Satan had me under from taking the runway until it was time to flare "Ok, look up." "Once you can fly to the bottom of an ILS, your ready to take your ride"
 
Henning said:
Satan had me under from taking the runway until it was time to flare "Ok, look up." "Once you can fly to the bottom of an ILS, your ready to take your ride"
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I THOUGHT I recognized the horns. :rofl:

Since home base is a residential airport with no approaches, I get the pattern for free. But all other approaches are to absolute minimums.

But I figure if I train with Satan I can fly with the angels, no?
 
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