Hood experience

Henning said:
But the reality is, it is kinda cool. I used to do it when I kept my plane out in Rio Vista CA and the Tulle fog would be in, and it is dense, but if I stand on top of my airplane, my head is in the clear. You get just a bit of visibility around, enough to see the runways edge. You square up with the sides on the middle and start rolling till you see the next stripe, accellerate as you get the gaps timed and plane oncourse as the plane gets light switch to instruments and rotate and breakout into the early morning sun in severe clear air shimmering across a gossamer mist as the valley floor to the surrounding hills and mountains. It's one of those times and views that makes me thank God I'm a pilot.
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In this case there wasn't even time to switch to instruments. As soon as I rotated, it was "Ahhhhhhhhhhh I'm blind, it's so bright!" Had I been flying a King Air, it would have probably looked like a scene from Jaws with the fin cruising around out the top of the fog while I taxied - if Great Whites had t-tails, that is. This was a case were I absolutely knew for a fact the weather was fin except for that 20' on the ground. Plus in an emergency I had the fairgrounds to land it in straight ahead if needed.
 
EdFred said:
In this case there wasn't even time to switch to instruments. As soon as I rotated, it was "Ahhhhhhhhhhh I'm blind, it's so bright!" Had I been flying a King Air, it would have probably looked like a scene from Jaws with the fin cruising around out the top of the fog while I taxied - if Great Whites had t-tails, that is. This was a case were I absolutely knew for a fact the weather was fin except for that 20' on the ground. Plus in an emergency I had the fairgrounds to land it in straight ahead if needed.
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If a cow had wandered onto the runway in the fog, would you have seen it in time to avoid it?
 
Ron Levy said:
If a cow had wandered onto the runway in the fog, would you have seen it in time to avoid it?
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Nope, wouldn't have time if I touched down and was less than Vr and it was nighttime and clear either.
 
EdFred said:
And I thought you were talking about something that has an actual probability of happening.
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You mean finding something unexpected on the runway or taxiway? Yes, that's happened and will undoubtedly happen again, especially at nontowered airports.
 
And the only times it has ever happened to me was when I was landing at night and the deer ran in front of us. I suppose none of us should fly at night. :rolleyes:

There was no eye shine, none visible along the edges. They came from way out of our line of sight, and had a death wish. I kept waiting for the windscreen to turn red. Still no idea how we missed them.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Dunno 'bout you, but I use my landing light on takeoff at night.
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Doesn't matter, deer, coyote, you're doing 50 and they jump out, you can't avoid em, and they could have been close to the runway where you would have seen them taxiing during the day.
 
Henning said:
Doesn't matter, deer, coyote, you're doing 50 and they jump out, you can't avoid em, and they could have been close to the runway where you would have seen them taxiing during the day.
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Well, yeah, there's that, but there's a lot that being able to see would make the difference. Like I said -- you and Ed take unnecessary risks most of us choose not to.
 
Ron Levy said:
Well, yeah, there's that, but there's a lot that being able to see would make the difference. Like I said -- you and Ed take unnecessary risks most of us choose not to.
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Yeah, remember, though, that you're talking about EdFred and Henning, not normal humans! :D
 
Okay, another question.

Does the 3 hours hood time as a private pilot student count towards my required time as an instrument pilot?

My instructor says no, but added he was not entirely sure.

And I had another good instrument lesson last night. Flying Practice "patterns" simulating a procedure turn, teardrop entry into a holding pattern and a holding pattern. And another practice pattern which incorporated altitude / speed changes. Next time we will be doing this partial panel, and we'll end the lesson with an approach.
 
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It does not. I don't have the regs here in front of me, but it's something along the lines of the 3 PPL hours labeled "flight by ref to instruments" (or something like that) and not "Instrument Training" (or whatever the IFR requirements are labeled).

All disclaimers apply...
 
So far, I have not read anything saying that the 3 hours does not count.

Flight by reference to instruments is listed in the 40 hour instrument training requirements:

(2) Forty hours of actual or simulated instrument time in the areas of operation listed in paragraph (c) of this section, of which 15 hours must have been received from an authorized instructor who holds an instrument-airplane rating, and the instrument time includes:

(c) Flight proficiency. A person who applies for an instrument rating must receive and log training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device, in accordance with paragraph (e) of this section, that includes the following areas of operation:

(1) Preflight preparation;

(2) Preflight procedures;

(3) Air traffic control clearances and procedures;

(4) Flight by reference to instruments;

(5) Navigation systems;

(6) Instrument approach procedures;

(7) Emergency operations; and

(8) Postflight procedures.

(d) Aeronautical experience for the instrument-airplane rating. A person who applies for an instrument-airplane rating must have logged:

(1) Fifty hours of cross country flight time as pilot in command, of which 10 hours must have been in an airplane; and

(2) Forty hours of actual or simulated instrument time in the areas of operation listed in paragraph (c) of this section, of which 15 hours must have been received from an authorized instructor who holds an instrument-airplane rating, and the instrument time includes:
 
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dell30rb said:
Does the 3 hours hood time as a private pilot student count towards my required time as an instrument pilot?
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Yes and no. It counts towards the 40-hour total instrument time requirement because it is instrument time per 61.51(g), but not the 15-hour instrument flight training requirement because, per 61.109(a)(3), it is not "instrument flight training." The regulatory reason is complex, but essentially it's so a plain-vanilla CFI-ASE can take you all the way zero-to-private.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Yes and no. It counts towards the 40-hour total instrument time requirement because it is instrument time per 61.51(g), but not the 15-hour instrument flight training requirement because, per 61.109(a)(3), it is not "instrument flight training." The regulatory reason is complex, but essentially it's so a plain-vanilla CFI-ASE can take you all the way zero-to-private.
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Does it count toward the 15 if you do your primary training with a CFII?
 
jason said:
Does it count toward the 15 if you do your primary training with a CFII?
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If all the below is met I cant see why not, but keep in mind the training must be germane to the instrument rating itself, the mere fact that your primary CFI has a II does not necessarily satisfy the instrument aeronautical experience req.



61.65
(d) 2
(c) of this section, of which 15 hours must have been received from an authorized instructor who holds an instrument-airplane rating, and the instrument time includes:

(i) Three hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in an airplane that is appropriate to the instrument-airplane rating within 2 calendar months before the date of the practical test; and

(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—
 
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My 3 hours for the private were done with a CFII. He had me doing altitude / heading changes, unusual attitude recovery, VOR tracking, 2 successful trips down an ILS.

Seems to me this should count? Regardless of the ILS and VOR stuff, anytime you're under the hood you are practicing flying by reference to instruments. And that is one of the tasks included in the 40 hours category. As far as counting toward the 15 hours?? It probably won't matter as i'll have more than 15 hours with my instructor before my checkride, but I am concerned that it will count toward the 40 hour requirement
 
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dell30rb said:
My 3 hours for the private were done with a CFII. He had me doing altitude / heading changes, unusual attitude recovery, VOR tracking, 2 successful trips down an ILS.

Seems to me this should count? Regardless of the ILS and VOR stuff, anytime you're under the hood you are practicing flying by reference to instruments. And that is one of the tasks included in the 40 hours category. As far as counting toward the 15 hours?? It probably won't matter as i'll have more than 15 hours with my instructor before my checkride, but I am concerned that it will count toward the 40 hour requirement
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It absolutely (100%) counts toward the 40.
 
jason said:
Does it count toward the 15 if you do your primary training with a CFII?
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As I said, no, it doesn't, because no matter who gives it, per 61.109(a)(3) it's "flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments," not "instrument flight training." If it weren't, it could only be given by a CFI with an IA rating as well as ASE, and Flight Stadards didn't want it that way.
 
Ron Levy said:
As I said, no, it doesn't, because no matter who gives it, per 61.109(a)(3) it's "flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments," not "instrument flight training." If it weren't, it could only be given by a CFI with an IA rating as well as ASE, and Flight Stadards didn't want it that way.
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OK, I'm looking for more info on "Flight Standards didn't want it that way.

I am in agreement that the 3 hours for PP should not count towards the 15 with a double-eye for the IR, ..but, to argue the point:

If a double-eye did the 3 hours for PP, and logged it "instrument training: control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments",
it would satisfy both regulatory requirements.

Is there an LOI to clarify what you say?
 
nosehair said:
OK, I'm looking for more info on "Flight Standards didn't want it that way.

I am in agreement that the 3 hours for PP should not count towards the 15 with a double-eye for the IR, ..but, to argue the point:

If a double-eye did the 3 hours for PP, and logged it "instrument training: control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments",
it would satisfy both regulatory requirements.

Is there an LOI to clarify what you say?
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Flight Standards didn't want it that way because then in order to do that section of your PP training you'd need a CFI-I rather than just CFI-A.
 
nosehair said:
OK, I'm looking for more info on "Flight Standards didn't want it that way.

I am in agreement that the 3 hours for PP should not count towards the 15 with a double-eye for the IR, ..but, to argue the point:

If a double-eye did the 3 hours for PP, and logged it "instrument training: control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments",
it would satisfy both regulatory requirements.

Is there an LOI to clarify what you say?
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Read the preamble to the NPRM where they reworded 61.109 -- the 1997 Part 61 changes, I believe. And no, logging it that way won't help because it can't be both.
 
This whole discussion seems pretty academic. I think a lot of us spent way more than the minimum with our CFII enroute to our IA. I know I did, and didn't regret any of those "extra" hours. Flying in IMC is serious business.
 
nddons said:
This whole discussion seems pretty academic. I think a lot of us spent way more than the minimum with our CFII enroute to our IA. I know I did, and didn't regret any of those "extra" hours. Flying in IMC is serious business.
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I spent 40 hrs working with my CFII on my IR, I guess that's 25hrs more than minimum? That's alright, it was worth it. Good training and finished in a week.
 
Ron Levy said:
You mean finding something unexpected on the runway or taxiway? Yes, that's happened and will undoubtedly happen again, especially at nontowered airports.
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Is this because cows follow ATC "hold short" instructions?
 
Ron Levy said:
I must admit I saw sheep on the runway at Torrejon AB, but the tower stopped operations until the shepherd got them all back into the grass.
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At one time the A/FD for home airport said to watch out for wild hogs on and near the runway.
 
Rndmtrvlr said:
At one time the A/FD for home airport said to watch out for wild hogs on and near the runway.
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A while back Leslie had a tagline that "sheep don't read NOTAMs." That was because we were going into a grass strip in NZ one day and the airport information page said that sheep were to be expected on the runway until 2PM (or something like that.) We came in after that time, but looked down to see the field still covered with sheep, so we needed to do a low pass to get them to vacate the runway.
 
Ron Levy said:
As I said, no, it doesn't, because no matter who gives it, per 61.109(a)(3) it's "flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments," not "instrument flight training." If it weren't, it could only be given by a CFI with an IA rating as well as ASE, and Flight Stadards didn't want it that way.
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What if I take a student pilot into IMC and choose to give them "instrument flight training". Does it count then?
 
Rndmtrvlr said:
At one time the A/FD for home airport said to watch out for wild hogs on and near the runway.
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I thought that was every airport in Texas. Need to turn loose some Pumas, reintroduce them to the wild....
 
jesse said:
What if I take a student pilot into IMC and choose to give them "instrument flight training". Does it count then?
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As I read the various regs, then it counts for the 15 for IR but not for the 3 for 61.109(a)(3).:dunno:
 
jesse said:
What if I take a student pilot into IMC and choose to give them "instrument flight training". Does it count then?
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For a STUDENT pilot:

If you are a CFII. yes.
If you are a CFI. Yes.

If you are not an instructor I don't see how a STUDENT pilot could count it for anything. How can a student claim time with a passenger in the plane.

And if you aren't a CFI or examiner, if the student is (not just logging, but IS) PIC then you are a passenger.

if the other person is a PP already then CFI and other pilots can provide instrument training/safety pilot services and the PP can log it.
 
Ron Levy said:
As I read the various regs, then it counts for the 15 for IR but not for the 3 for 61.109(a)(3).:dunno:
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To be sure I understand this... If I (as a CFI-ASE) take a student into IMC and have him do basic attitude instrument flying, he can log it as actual and as dual received and log it towards 61.109(a)(3) IF I write it down as "instruction in manuevering soley by reference to instruments".

To be honest, I wouldn't take a student up in IMC until I'd completed my CFII, and was very comfortable flying in actual from the right seat.
 
TMetzinger said:
To be sure I understand this... If I (as a CFI-ASE) take a student into IMC and have him do basic attitude instrument flying, he can log it as actual and as dual received and log it towards 61.109(a)(3) IF I write it down as "instruction in manuevering soley by reference to instruments".
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Agreed, but then it doesn't count for the 15 for the IR.
 
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