Homeland Security Expanding Ramps Checks?

Geico266

Geico266

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Geico
A buddy of mine sent me this email.


Yesterday, several of us went to lunch at a nearby small airport. *When we came back from lunch the County Sheriff was waiting. *As we each approached our aircraft, he walked up to one of us and asked to see his certificate and medical...basically a ramp check. *My friend complied and of course we all crowded around as interested observers. *The Sheriff was friendly and talkative. *He said he was required to do random ramp checks by Homeland Security. *Apparently he said, when the county accepted Homeland Security funds for crime prevention, this was part of their "payback." * He even had a form to fill out.

So basically, Homeland Security is purchasing snitches. *I can't wait until they ask for my medical. *Something tells the local county Sheriff is not up to date on flying with your driver's license.
 
Just a rare, rogue, bad apple, sheriff. Not a plan or pattern here.
 
The most recent issue of Pilot, the AOPA magazine, this is becoming more common. http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/February/Pilot/CBP.aspx

Here is an excerpt for those who cannot get to the site:
After a routine flight, you land at your destination, taxi to the ramp—and then you’re unexpectedly approached by more than half a dozen armed law enforcement officers, including a couple with rifles in hand. There’s a K-9 unit on scene, and the dog circles the aircraft several times.

The officers demand to see your pilot and medical certificates. You hand over the paperwork.

Then they demand to search your aircraft and luggage. They don’t have a warrant and they can’t seem to tell you why they want to look, so you say “no” to the search. The officers are clearly unhappy with your answer. If you don’t consent to the search, they’ll detain you for 48 hours, they warn. Still unwilling? They threaten to call a “buddy” at the FAA and have your pilot certificate revoked.

You can’t believe this is happening. Can they do that? What should you do? You relent and consent to the search.

You’re shaken, angry, and frustrated. And then, more than an hour after it started, it’s over. They’ve found nothing illegal. They let you go, still offering no explanation.
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Here is their explanation of the legality:
The answer appears to be that [Customs and Border Protection (CBP)] has no such authority. When pressed, the best the agency has managed to come up with is citing the federal aviation regulations, specifically 14 CFR 61.3(l) and 91.203. In case you’re rusty on your regs, the first requires that a pilot present his or her airman certificate and medical certificate, along with photo identification, to any federal, state, or local law enforcement officer who asks for it. The second requires that the aircraft carry airworthiness and registration certificates.

But while the regulations require pilots to have and present appropriate documentation, they don’t give law enforcement agencies the right to stop airplanes just to check that documentation. Instead, the law enforcement officers must have a reason and the authority to stop the airplane in the first place. Only then can they ask for the documents. And because these are FARs, the authority to enforce the rules rests entirely with the FAA. Agency representatives say they haven’t asked CBP or any other agency to conduct stops or document checks.

What’s more, there must be probable cause or reasonable suspicion of illegal activity for the officers to go beyond examining documents. Officers can ask pilots to consent to a search, but that consent must be given voluntarily, and the pilot can set limits as to the extent and duration. Warrantless searches can be made without pilot consent if the officers have reason to believe someone aboard the aircraft is armed and dangerous, someone hidden inside intends to impede or assault the officers, or the aircraft is carrying evidence of a crime or contraband such as drugs. That’s a fairly high standard to meet, and officers and agents involved in the reported stops don’t seem able to articulate the conditions they’re using to justify their actions.
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Did you ask the sheriff for a copy of (or at least to see) that Homeland Security request? I would also have asked (politely, of course -- he's got a badge, gun, and handcuffs) for a copy of that report he was filling out.
 
Ron Levy said:
Did you ask the sheriff for a copy of (or at least to see) that Homeland Security request? I would also have asked (politely, of course -- he's got a badge, gun, and handcuffs) for a copy of that report he was filling out.
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You can still ask for the report. Do a record request of FOI request with the local police. Then if you really want to have some fun do a FOI request for all the freedom of information requests they have gotten in the past X-days/months.
 
Ron Levy said:
Did you ask the sheriff for a copy of (or at least to see) that Homeland Security request? I would also have asked (politely, of course -- he's got a badge, gun, and handcuffs) for a copy of that report he was filling out.
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My incident came from HLS directly, and they so far have refused to comply with the FOI request I sent in. Its a joke, they do what they want in the name of security. It called spying where I come from.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm a little puzzled by AOPA's mention of aircraft being "stopped." Most of the cases being reported don't seem to involve pilots being ordered to land.
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http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2013/January/10/Secret-no-fly-zone

Glider pilot was ordered to land by local sheriff because he flew near power plant. Fortunately, he had a cockpit recorder that shows he did not loiter and he did not fly too low. Nevertheless, he spent a night in jail while his plane was unsecured.
 
AuntPeggy said:
http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2013/January/10/Secret-no-fly-zone

Glider pilot was ordered to land by local sheriff because he flew near power plant. Fortunately, he had a cockpit recorder that shows he did not loiter and he did not fly too low. Nevertheless, he spent a night in jail while his plane was unsecured.
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I tell my students don't go sightseeing around nuclear plants but you can fly past. The plant here in AR is next to an airport so it's kinda hard to avoid.

I've flown past dams and other public infrastructure going places everyday. The only place I actively avoid is the Pine Bluff Chemical Warfare Aresnal and the Army Bio Research building. That's only cause it's mark to please avoid overflight under 5000'.
 
Location?



Geico266 said:
A buddy of mine sent me this email.


Yesterday, several of us went to lunch at a nearby small airport. *When we came back from lunch the County Sheriff was waiting. *As we each approached our aircraft, he walked up to one of us and asked to see his certificate and medical...basically a ramp check. *My friend complied and of course we all crowded around as interested observers. *The Sheriff was friendly and talkative. *He said he was required to do random ramp checks by Homeland Security. *Apparently he said, when the county accepted Homeland Security funds for crime prevention, this was part of their "payback." * He even had a form to fill out.

So basically, Homeland Security is purchasing snitches. *I can't wait until they ask for my medical. *Something tells the local county Sheriff is not up to date on flying with your driver's license.
Click to expand...
 
Location?


Geico266 said:
A buddy of mine sent me this email.


Yesterday, several of us went to lunch at a nearby small airport. *When we came back from lunch the County Sheriff was waiting. *As we each approached our aircraft, he walked up to one of us and asked to see his certificate and medical...basically a ramp check. *My friend complied and of course we all crowded around as interested observers. *The Sheriff was friendly and talkative. *He said he was required to do random ramp checks by Homeland Security. *Apparently he said, when the county accepted Homeland Security funds for crime prevention, this was part of their "payback." * He even had a form to fill out.

So basically, Homeland Security is purchasing snitches. *I can't wait until they ask for my medical. *Something tells the local county Sheriff is not up to date on flying with your driver's license.
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just another great reason to avoid airports
 
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I hope the county sheriff doesn't try that out here. If he does I will refuse to take him someplace next time he asks.
:yes:
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm a little puzzled by AOPA's mention of aircraft being "stopped." Most of the cases being reported don't seem to involve pilots being ordered to land.
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Just scare tactics to accompany their latest begging for money emails.
 
If I understand the OP correctly, none of them were observed operating an aircraft. If that was the case I would refuse to comply with an order to produce the pilot cert, medical or AW cert. Ownership <> operation. I would happily show my US passport but unless they have some probable cause to suspect malfeasance regarding that exact aircraft the whole bunch of LEO can go pound sand.

Furthermore, once I DO climb in and crank the engine to operate the LEO again better have some PC for pulling me over. This anal probing is getting out of hand and everyone who complies just puts one more nail in the coffin. If you think you will be arrested then get arrested. So far I have six arrest and zero have gone anywhere. Each time I'm released I've notified the responsible agency and complained. I want to know if any one else here has any balls at all.
 
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Geico266 said:
My incident came from HLS directly, and they so far have refused to comply with the FOI request I sent in. Its a joke, they do what they want in the name of security. It called spying where I come from.
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Have you talked with your congress critter's office and let them know what's going on?
 
Geico266 said:
A buddy of mine sent me this email.


Yesterday, several of us went to lunch at a nearby small airport. *When we came back from lunch the County Sheriff was waiting. *As we each approached our aircraft, he walked up to one of us and asked to see his certificate and medical...basically a ramp check. *My friend complied and of course we all crowded around as interested observers. *The Sheriff was friendly and talkative. *He said he was required to do random ramp checks by Homeland Security. *Apparently he said, when the county accepted Homeland Security funds for crime prevention, this was part of their "payback." * He even had a form to fill out.

So basically, Homeland Security is purchasing snitches. *I can't wait until they ask for my medical. *Something tells the local county Sheriff is not up to date on flying with your driver's license.
Click to expand...


Because so much good information is always forwarded via email.....

We all have that crazy uncle.
 
docmirror said:
....... So far I have six arrest and zero have gone anywhere. Each time I'm released I've notified the responsible agency and complained. I want to know if any one else here has any balls at all.
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I for one believe you are in good company!
 
Frankly, I think what DHS is doing is illegal, constitutionally, but somebody has to step up and challenge and get the law overturned. Most of us don't have the time/money/desire to do something like that.
 
somorris said:
Frankly, I think what DHS is doing is illegal, constitutionally, but somebody has to step up and challenge and get the law overturned. Most of us don't have the time/money/desire to do something like that.
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AOPA/EAA should ante up and fund lawsuits and defense attorneys for this abuse.

Also, they should get the regulations amended so that non-FAA authorities demands for cert/medical can be only if there was an accident or in connection with PC. Being acosted under color of law by walking around the ramp is just "stop and frisk."
 
somorris said:
Frankly, I think what DHS is doing is illegal, constitutionally, but somebody has to step up and challenge and get the law overturned. Most of us don't have the time/money/desire to do something like that.
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I don't think there *is* a law to be overturned. I think what they are doing is, in at least some cases, completely illegal to begin with.

I know it's easy to bluster on an Internet forum and a lot harder to follow through when there's a guy with a uniform, gun and badge and you're trying to get somewhere. Having said that, should something like that happen to me, I plan to follow the advice I have read here and in numerous other places. Badge numbers, ID checks, all of it. Am I under arrest? Free to go? No, you do not have my permission to search anything. Sorry, but it's really none of your business where I'm going, where I've been or why.

My son and I learned the hard way a couple of years back not to assume that the person you're dealing with is an honest cop and not intent on finding some way of screwing you.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I think you mean Granbury... that's CLOSE to me. And has some of the cheapest fuel around... gets lots of pilots coming and going.
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That's probably sufficient PC right there. Anyone flying to that airport just to save a few bucks on fuel is obviously up to no good.
 
While you do have to present your certificate to any law enforcement officer, it has to be incidental to some form of criminal investigation. "Just because I want to see it" is not enough. The courts have backed up this interpretation.

If I were in this situation, I would ask what was the purpose of the investigation. If the Sheriff said "for funding I have to check them" I would bid him a good day and walk off. If it escalated beyond that my lawyer would be called at first opportunity.

I'm not against police...I used to be one. But if you don't assert your rights, you might as well not have them.
 
BS administrative law says you have to present pilot papers to any law enforcement officer that asks. No cause no warrant needed. No way am I defending it. Wonder if anyone ever been dinged by the FAA for refusal to show papers(not counting the people that didn't posses them, honest refusals)?


bullwinkle said:
While you do have to present your certificate to any law enforcement officer, it has to be incidental to some form of criminal investigation. "Just because I want to see it" is not enough. The courts have backed up this interpretation.

If I were in this situation, I would ask what was the purpose of the investigation. If the Sheriff said "for funding I have to check them" I would bid him a good day and walk off. If it escalated beyond that my lawyer would be called at first opportunity.

I'm not against police...I used to be one. But if you don't assert your rights, you might as well not have them.
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ClimbnSink said:
BS administrative law says you have to present pilot papers to any law enforcement officer that asks. No cause no warrant needed. No way am I defending it. Wonder if anyone ever been dinged by the FAA for refusal to show papers(not counting the people that didn't posses them, honest refusals)?
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A congressional statute or an FAA regulation cannot trump constitutional rights. I suppose the FAA may take some administrative action for the refusal, but there should be no criminal repercussions.
 
A congressional statute or an FAA regulation cannot trump constitutional rights.
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Amen. We as a country need to get back to our roots. We are guaranteed rights under our constitution. Nobody can overrule that.
 
somorris said:
Amen. We as a country need to get back to our roots. We are guaranteed rights under our constitution. Nobody can overrule that.
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Problem with that is, the constitutional process allows the creation of administrative law.

But the problem is much deeper than that. We are not ruled by the people we elect, we are ruled by department heads which are appointed by the administration in office.

this is a perfect oligarchy, it is not a republic we were meant to be, nor is that a democracy we were never meant to be.
 
ScottM said:
You can still ask for the report. Do a record request of FOI request with the local police. Then if you really want to have some fun do a FOI request for all the freedom of information requests they have gotten in the past X-days/months.
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I'm submitting a FOI request about all FOI requests about FOI requests.
 
bullwinkle said:
While you do have to present your certificate to any law enforcement officer, it has to be incidental to some form of criminal investigation. "Just because I want to see it" is not enough. The courts have backed up this interpretation. .
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You have a citation for the case law on point?
 
But the problem is much deeper than that. We are not ruled by the people we elect, we are ruled by department heads which are appointed by the administration in office.

this is a perfect oligarchy, it is not a republic we were meant to be, nor is that a democracy we were never meant to be.
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I agree, Tom, only I would have used "governed" instead of "ruled," even though ruled is closer to the actual these days.
 
So, I guess a cop can walk around anywhere, any time and just ask random people on the street for the pilot papers? Doubt that. How does he know who's a pilot? Suppose he happens on a citizen in the vicinity of an airplane and asks for a license and medical? Presume the cop did not observe the citizen operating an aircraft, does the citizen even have to answer the request for papers? As far as I know, absent priori knowledge of operating an aircraft a cop is on very thin if not completely absent probable cause.

There is no way I'm saying one word to the leo except 'lawyer' or 'am I free to go'. Once I admit to being a pilot then I have to produce my cert. Its the old 'when did you stop beating your wife' deal. Eff that.
 
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