Hollywood Sightseeing Flight Goes Wrong...

SC777 said:
Must be pretty awesome to be perfect and not make any errors in judgement.

FlyingMonkey, I think you handled it well. Didn’t panic. Chose a simpler path to Whiteman rather than potentially create a headache at one of the busiest Class C airports in the country which is literally next door. Landed without incident. Good job sir.
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It's not about "not making errors in judgement", it's about "learning from them, so you don't make them again".
 
Larry Vrooman said:
It's not about "not making errors in judgement", it's about "learning from them, so you don't make them again".
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I'd say making a video, sharing it publicly and going through both the thought process to mitigate it once it happens as well as a lot of thought on prevention counts as learning.. care to share any mistakes you've made and what you learned from them?
 
Hang 4 said:
I'd say making a video, sharing it publicly and going through both the thought process to mitigate it once it happens as well as a lot of thought on prevention counts as learning.. care to share any mistakes you've made and what you learned from them?
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I have in the past. I posted about my near icing related crash on the flight home from a long, and very thorough instrument check ride. We all make mistakes. We share those mistakes so others can learn from them. We should not however, seek to limit what people might learn from it, or fall prey to the temptation to chalking it up to random things that just happen.

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That said, I agree with you - to a point. The video certainly brings the issue to light and others can learn from it. However, there are also larger issues and lessons that need to be pointed out. Although apparently not *here* since we don't apparently don't want the OP (posting videos on youtube as a source of revenue) to feel bad.

There are also elements of a "stuff happens" victim sort of attitude evident in the video that we should not ignore, such as:

"but a few minutes later the latch has (just magically?) popped open"; and

"It's on my checklist. Which I actually use, but somehow I missed it this time."

It's obvious in the video that the OP didn't check the baggage door for a locked condition on his quick walk past it. I don't know how that possibly conforms with his statement that he uses the checklist.

To be fair, perhaps he just strives for never closing the baggage door without locking it. I do something similar with tow bars. If I have one on the aircraft it is in my hand and being actively used to move the aircraft. If it is not in my hand and being used to actively move the aircraft, it is removed from the aircraft and is safely placed where it won't get hit by or sucked into the prop(s). It's not a "checklist item" per se, but it's a practice I religiously follow after seeing the aftermath of a pilot forgetting about a tow bar he'd used on a Cherokee. That was about a $5K bill back in 1985. It would be closer to $15K now.

There's a lesson or two to learn there about checklists and about complacency.

In any event, shortly after walking past the baggage door with nothing more than a glance and no checklist in sight, he's walking up on the wing to enter the aircraft. If the forward cargo bay latch was secured before, it latch is clearly open at that point, and is clearly visible from the wing where he's at. That was a "last chance to catch it" opportunity that was lost.

There's another lesson for us. Those kinds of last minute visual checks for critical items are a valuable backup to the formal checklist.

Then there's my original point that has attracted so much ire. It's also a very valuable lesson. The OP had a door come open in flight a few months ago, and now he has had a baggage door come open in flight. Both are checklist items and both were missed. The fact that rates of improperly latched doors coming open on Cherokees, doesn't justify it. In fact, just the opposite, that increased potential requires greater diligence. That's the difference in the attitude that distinguishes a responsible, proactive pilot from someone who just plays a "victim" when stuff just "somehow" happens.

There's also a lot ot be learned from patterns and the power of past behavior being the best predictor of future behavior. For the OP that's two incidents in a short period of time. That's something that should be a concern to the OP in terms of how he preflights his aircraft - and perhaps on his focus when he preflights or flies his aircraft.

Let me digress for a minute to a more extreme example. My wife and I are cave divers and in particular we dive in small passages using closed circuit side mount rebreather, potentially a couple hundred feet deep and thousands of feet from the nearest exit. Training, experience, currency, proper equipment, redundancy and maintenance, thorough planning, discipline, adherence to the plan, and accurate self assessment of your skills and abilities relative to that particular dive are all critical to completing that dive safely.

It's diving conducted in a very hostile environment, yet it's the safest diving I've ever done as the focus is on controlling the variables and then training and equipping to manage everything you can't control. When people die cave diving, it's because they either violated one or more of the cardinal safety rules and/or they became complacent. Far more often, they just had a health issue like a heart attack or stroke that simply won't be survivable in that environment. The saving grace is that unless a team as a whole fails, or a teammate fails to recognize the developing trend line as an accident progresses and takes appropriate action, most fatal cave diving accidents are single death events.

Aviation is far less demanding. However it's far easier to become complacent. Worst of all, when you screw up in an airplane, you run a significant risk of killing or injuring other people as a result of your mistake.

Consequently...No. None of us get to just sit back and "say nice job!" after someone screws up or take the credit for "nicely handling" a potentially life threatening situation that was 100% preventable.

The OP has has had two of those 100% preventable incidents in short order. He needs to take a hard look at how he preflights and how he flies. He needs to consider whether his video activities are distracting him from the more important activities such as "aviate, navigate, and communicate", not just in the air, but starting before he ever takes off. He may also need to take a hard look at whether he's in the right airplane for what he's doing. He needs to think hard on that and he needs to do that before he puts his family in the plane.

I look forward to a video talking about that rigorous self assessment.

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If any of the above make you uncomfortable as a reader, or if the OPs action strike you in some was as normal or acceptable, or worse, laudable, you probably need to take a hard look at your own flying.
 
After viewing the initial posts, and forgetting about it, I came back to this thread. Although I may have not read some of the discussion, I want to dispel any idea that the Piper latches are defective in some way. If the issue is clearly that the OP did not check that he had latched the baggage door, then he needs to do a better job during preflight. But if that latch on his Cherokee 6 is the same as on my 1980 PA28-181 baggage door, if the door is latched, one does not need to lock it. I never lock it when I’m going on a flight, only when on the ground when leaving the plane. Although remote, I could think of instances where having it locked might not be in the best interests in some emergencies, such as in a forced landing. Trying to grab things out of the baggage area that might not be carried on your person when evacuating the plane is not a speedy process while finding or fumbling for the keys. However if others know that this latch can become defective with time, and needs to be locked, I’ll admit to learning something new.
 
Glad nothing feel out and the plane wasn't damaged (it appears). I could feel your anxiety about anything falling out. The experience did suck on a few levels. I had my door pop open once on my Comanche, the first time that I flew it solo. Until then, the instructor had been closing and latching it. It was a non-event, I just landed at the nearest airport, but it was a reminder to be thorough in my pre-flight. It is easy to get distracted by a multitude of things. I have a sequence for my pre-flight and if it gets interrupted for any reason, I make my self start over. Impressive quality on the videos! Thanks for sharing.
 
Click Bait my ass. Its a video where Eric missed something on preflight and he is posting the video as a mea culpa. My guess is he won't make that mistake again. On the video where the door popped open sorry but that happens and it happens even after folks close doors and check them. The open door was not an emergency anymore than a gear failure is, probably less so. I will admit that his wife's coat flapping in the slip stream scared me especially when I saw the stabilator vibrating but here's the thing. Just because its on the video does not mean Eric saw it. I think folks tend to assume that the cameras see what Eric sees which is not at all the case. He is concentrating on flying and landing the plane safely and just because we saw his wife put the coat in the door does not mean he did. Also Non sequitur, Dynon should use your HDX Skyview video for marketing. Good product but they need to get the AP certified in more planes to make it a great product.
 
His PS Engineering video is as amazing as it gets. Check it out if you haven’t already.
 
The guy makes some really good videos. Some people on POA are just POS! Blowhard self important douches. This is a great site but you have to filter through the bloviating self righteous sermons.
 
Flying Monkey produces great videos - topics and production quality.

I have been flying since 1981 and have NEVER walked around my airplane with a written checklist. I cannot remember the last time I have ever seen another GA pilot on the ramp walking around his airplane with a written preflight checklist.

In the cockpit yes - outside no.

The total BS of some of these sanctimonious posters is unbelievable.

I love watching YouTube videos about flying. I wonder why anyone has the nerve to upload any.

Keep em coming Flying Monkey!
 
I know of a PA-32 that crashed and took several lives a few years back, and by all accounts the most likely cause was the pilot fixating on the baggage door that came open shortly after takeoff. First, fly the airplane. And, second, fly the airplane. When you get done with that, fly the airplane some more. That's the difference between a surprise turning into a teachable moment and the same surprise turning into a tragedy.
 
AlphaMike said:
The guy makes some really good videos.
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Agreed!
AlphaMike said:
Some people on POA are just POS! Blowhard self important douches. This is a great site but you have to filter through the bloviating self righteous sermons.
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Easy now.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but let’s show some respect - that goes for everyone!
 
Just want to clarify something about a previous video where the front passenger door cracked open over Sedona. If you watch that one, I am reviewing the checklist and call out the door for my wife. Wife says check/yes and I still look at the door and catch that it is not latched and then she latches it while I stop everything else and wait and watch her to do it . The problem was not that I didn't use a checklist, nor that I didn't visually verify the door closed and latched because it LOOKED closed and then ACTUALLY WAS latched. The problem was that it wasn't closed hard enough in the beginning...that I didn't properly train my wife on the correct pressure to use when closing the door, or that I didn't insist on doing it myself. I actually believe that regular PAX should be trained on proper door operation in case of emergencies- I want them to know how to open and close them- others may disagree and that is fine. Still my fault- I'm the PIC but it is a different scenario than this one.

On this one, I overlooked the checklist item for whatever reason (which is probably the most valuable part of the debrief as someone mentioned). Why I overlooked this should be considered and I could have done a better job in the video of diving into this subject. My conclusion is that I likely wanted to get off before dark to catch the sunset on the Hollywood sign - not for a video but for my own enjoyment. As I said I hadn't intended on shooting a video and had multiple cameras not rigged or rolling. Yes, I missed a checklist item.

As I mentioned in a previous post, having cameras in the airplane is a major thing to consider- they can be a distraction and it is extremely important to be aware of that possibility and the possibility that the presence of a camera has the potential to influence your or others' behavior. I have analyzed this extensively and mitigate the risk the best I can. I don't adjust cameras during flight and have them hooked to huge battery packs that last for 9 hours with 6 hours of space of the SD cards. Set it and forget it. On more challenging flights I leave the cameras at home if there is not adequate head space or time to deal with the amount of bandwidth that they demand before the flight. Still, it is always on my mind how the presence of the camera is affecting my actual flying process. It is something I am constantly assessing. I'm sure not everyone does this.
 
Yesterday I took a new plane partner up to do a familiarization flight in my PA32. I personally closed the door and latched the top latch. I also pushed on the upper latch to ensure that it was closed.

On up wind, the upper part of the door popped open. I simply turned the upwind into a downwind for the opposite runway to land. I re-secured the door and we flew for the next hour with no issues.

Point being it happens on occasion. Even when you double check but you have to make sure you checked it the first time too.
 
k9medic said:
Yesterday I took a new plane partner up to do a familiarization flight in my PA32. I personally closed the door and latched the top latch. I also pushed on the upper latch to ensure that it was closed.

On up wind, the upper part of the door popped open. I simply turned the upwind into a downwind for the opposite runway to land. I re-secured the door and we flew for the next hour with no issues.

Point being it happens on occasion. Even when you double check but you have to make sure you checked it the first time too.
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My old crusty curmudgeonly CFI deliberately popped his door on the 172 towards the end of my primary training. Right after the mains left the ground, he popped the door and pushed it open a good bit. Made a hell of a racket and buffeted the aircraft. As we'd just lifted off from a 7400ft runway, I pulled the power, plopped her down, and exited the runway. He was pleased with the response, he wanted to know what I'd do.
 
k9medic said:
Yesterday I took a new plane partner up to do a familiarization flight in my PA32. I personally closed the door and latched the top latch. I also pushed on the upper latch to ensure that it was closed.

On up wind, the upper part of the door popped open. I simply turned the upwind into a downwind for the opposite runway to land. I re-secured the door and we flew for the next hour with no issues.

Point being it happens on occasion. Even when you double check but you have to make sure you checked it the first time too.
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On my rental Pa-32 the upper latch on the pilot-side baggage door is totally shot so you have to rely on the lock. On the starboard passenger door the lock is completely failed so you have to rely on the upper latch.
 
Bill Jennings said:
My old crusty curmudgeonly CFI deliberately popped his door on the 172 towards the end of my primary training. Right after the mains left the ground, he popped the door and pushed it open a good bit. Made a hell of a racket and buffeted the aircraft. As we'd just lifted off from a 7400ft runway, I pulled the power, plopped her down, and exited the runway. He was pleased with the response, he wanted to know what I'd do.
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You got completely the wrong lesson from that experience. He was trying to tell you that, if you weren't going to use more right rudder, he was going to input more right door until the ball was centered. o_O
 
Bender Aviation said:
On my rental Pa-32 the upper latch on the pilot-side baggage door is totally shot so you have to rely on the lock. On the starboard passenger door the lock is completely failed so you have to rely on the upper latch.
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What a great combination. And the school or owner has not fixed this, why?
 
iamtheari said:
I know of a PA-32 that crashed and took several lives a few years back, and by all accounts the most likely cause was the pilot fixating on the baggage door that came open shortly after takeoff. First, fly the airplane. And, second, fly the airplane. When you get done with that, fly the airplane some more. That's the difference between a surprise turning into a teachable moment and the same surprise turning into a tragedy.
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Six people I knew were killed when an open baggage door caused the pilot to crash the airplane. All the pilot needed to do was raise the gear and fly the traffic pattern back to the active runway. He failed to do that, pushed and pulled other levers instead, and it went down on the base leg.
 
iamtheari said:
I know of a PA-32 that crashed and took several lives a few years back, and by all accounts the most likely cause was the pilot fixating on the baggage door that came open shortly after takeoff. First, fly the airplane. And, second, fly the airplane. When you get done with that, fly the airplane some more. That's the difference between a surprise turning into a teachable moment and the same surprise turning into a tragedy.
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Reminds me a conversation I had in the formative years of my pilot journey. I did my all my private cert training in a C150 that was older than I was. The co-owner of the flight school was a tall skinny airline guy. Chatting with him one day he was telling me about how he'd built hours for his first airline gig by flying pipeline in very same C150 I was now learning to fly in.

I think I asked him something along the lines of did he ever encounter any hairy situations being forced to fly down low in all kinds of weather in that old underpowered green and white airplane wannabe I was learning in. He told me about a time when he noticed the cowling oil door wobbling as though it was going to open up, and how as he flew he route he watched the wobble get worse until it did open up and then it immediately ripped off the plane leaving a gaping hole in the cowl.

In a very shocked voice befitting of my 27 or so hours logged I excitedly asked him how he handled such a dire situation. He kind of laughed and in his thick Texas drawl he said 'son, the most important thing anyone ever taught me about flying airplanes was if you're ever flying and something happens and you think you gotta do something about it right now, first thing you oughta do is sit down and smoke cigarette and think about it a little bit'.

His point was received loud and clear. There are certain things that happen in airplanes that you have to fix right f*ckin now (inadvertent stalls, etc), and you will know those things because when they happen you'll already be fixing them before you've even realized what's really happening. For the vast majority of everything else you can step back and take a moment to figure out 'what'd I lose, what still works' and then assess from there.

I won't say that conversation saved my life, but I will definitely say it improved the outcome of many situations I encountered since.
 
I like these videos, I think it's awesome that people are willing to share their lessons-learned and stories.
Odd that it's met with any negativity.
Keep 'em coming
 
nj-pilot said:
I like these videos, I think it's awesome that people are willing to share their lessons-learned and stories.
Odd that it's met with any negativity.
Keep 'em coming
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From talking with others here and elsewhere, I will say that people are ambivalent about users who start a new thread to post their video, with or without a clickbait title, rather than engaging in discussion on the forum. Discussion is the purpose of the forum. People voluntarily subscribing to your YouTube channel is the means of advertising that you have posted a new video. Trying to shoehorn a forum into a video advertising service offends some forum users. (Before vlogging was popular, the same thing happened with people using discussion forums to promote their own blogs rather than to participate in the forum, which I see as the same thing. This has been going on for at least 20 years.)

This thread is a good example of discussion about the aviation issues in the OP's video, and, if my memory serves, the OP has actively participated in discussion here other than just on his own videos. In this thread alone, he wrote in the first post about the baggage door opening in flight and hoping his experience would help other pilots avoid making the same mistakes. He's even responded to the discussion in the thread. The thread title is maybe a little bit over the top, but as far as clickbait goes it is relatively tame.

There are examples of the other behavior here, just dropping a video with a clickbaity title and never talking about it, but I won't use this thread to complain about or advertise others' videos. The point is that it isn't surprising people have mixed feelings about threads like this and, so far, the MC isn't terribly interested in prohibiting threads like this since there is real discussion generated by them.

These aren't my go-to threads here. I browse to youtube.com when I want to watch videos and I usually skip over new threads posted by the vlogger contingent. But, as long as people are talking about flying because of threads like this, I'm with you: Keep 'em coming.
 
iamtheari said:
From talking with others here and elsewhere, I will say that people are ambivalent about users who start a new thread to post their video, with or without a clickbait title, rather than engaging in discussion on the forum. Discussion is the purpose of the forum. People voluntarily subscribing to your YouTube channel is the means of advertising that you have posted a new video. Trying to shoehorn a forum into a video advertising service offends some forum users. (Before vlogging was popular, the same thing happened with people using discussion forums to promote their own blogs rather than to participate in the forum, which I see as the same thing. This has been going on for at least 20 years.)

This thread is a good example of discussion about the aviation issues in the OP's video, and, if my memory serves, the OP has actively participated in discussion here other than just on his own videos. In this thread alone, he wrote in the first post about the baggage door opening in flight and hoping his experience would help other pilots avoid making the same mistakes. He's even responded to the discussion in the thread. The thread title is maybe a little bit over the top, but as far as clickbait goes it is relatively tame.

There are examples of the other behavior here, just dropping a video with a clickbaity title and never talking about it, but I won't use this thread to complain about or advertise others' videos. The point is that it isn't surprising people have mixed feelings about threads like this and, so far, the MC isn't terribly interested in prohibiting threads like this since there is real discussion generated by them.

These aren't my go-to threads here. I browse to youtube.com when I want to watch videos and I usually skip over new threads posted by the vlogger contingent. But, as long as people are talking about flying because of threads like this, I'm with you: Keep 'em coming.
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I started my Youtube channel to share aviation with others and get back to creating my own films on my own terms after 20+ years shooting for others, which is still my career. The whole point is to nerd out with other pilot nerds about this stuff. There are lots of things I find interesting about aviation that I still want to share and explore... along with how I feel about aviation as a whole. I hope it all provokes thoughtful discussion or sparks imagination and feeling.
 
FlyingMonkey said:
I started my Youtube channel to share aviation with others and get back to creating my own films on my own terms after 20+ years shooting for others, which is still my career. The whole point is to nerd out with other pilot nerds about this stuff. There are lots of things I find interesting about aviation that I still want to share and explore... along with how I feel about aviation as a whole. I hope it all provokes thoughtful discussion or sparks imagination and feeling.
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Keep going Eric - lots of folks love your work, I enjoy it - you’re the last person to accuse of clickbaiting and self promotion.
 
Mike Blackburn said:
Keep going Eric - lots of folks love your work, I enjoy it
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Me too! I didn't know filmmaking was your profession, but it all makes sense now. I was wondering how you got your videos so professional-looking. My 10 year old likes your videos (especially the puppy one!) and has been filming portions of our flights with her old iPhone. She is actually pretty good at it and I told her maybe we can get a camera or two to mount and record some more of the flights. Not for posting (we won't let her post stuff until she is older), but just to record the fun memories. Anyway, thanks for the family-fun spin you put into your stuff.

She doesn't get the jokes about how slow Grummans are and she doesn't know what a FSDO is yet, so sorry @SixPapaCharlie you aren't her fav yet. But she did like the one with the goat-stall-horn for some reason.
 
FlyingMonkey said:
I started my Youtube channel to share aviation with others and get back to creating my own films on my own terms after 20+ years shooting for others, which is still my career. The whole point is to nerd out with other pilot nerds about this stuff. There are lots of things I find interesting about aviation that I still want to share and explore... along with how I feel about aviation as a whole. I hope it all provokes thoughtful discussion or sparks imagination and feeling.
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I hope you didn't take my post above as a critique. It was intended as a general comment on the subject of why some people see this type of thread as clickbait, others eagerly await the next one, and most don't get why there is any dispute. We pilots have many talents to share. On this forum, we have some members with world-class talents in photography, cinematography, comedy, teaching, and so many other things. Maybe even flying. Even when I don't personally appreciate a particular example or category of those talents, I always appreciate that what makes POA great is that people share those talents through a mutual love of aviation. Thank you for sharing yours with us.
 
iamtheari said:
From talking with others here and elsewhere, I will say that people are ambivalent about users who start a new thread to post their video, with or without a clickbait title, rather than engaging in discussion on the forum. Discussion is the purpose of the forum. People voluntarily subscribing to your YouTube channel is the means of advertising that you have posted a new video. Trying to shoehorn a forum into a video advertising service offends some forum users. (Before vlogging was popular, the same thing happened with people using discussion forums to promote their own blogs rather than to participate in the forum, which I see as the same thing. This has been going on for at least 20 years.)

This thread is a good example of discussion about the aviation issues in the OP's video, and, if my memory serves, the OP has actively participated in discussion here other than just on his own videos. In this thread alone, he wrote in the first post about the baggage door opening in flight and hoping his experience would help other pilots avoid making the same mistakes. He's even responded to the discussion in the thread. The thread title is maybe a little bit over the top, but as far as clickbait goes it is relatively tame.

There are examples of the other behavior here, just dropping a video with a clickbaity title and never talking about it, but I won't use this thread to complain about or advertise others' videos. The point is that it isn't surprising people have mixed feelings about threads like this and, so far, the MC isn't terribly interested in prohibiting threads like this since there is real discussion generated by them.

These aren't my go-to threads here. I browse to youtube.com when I want to watch videos and I usually skip over new threads posted by the vlogger contingent. But, as long as people are talking about flying because of threads like this, I'm with you: Keep 'em coming.
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You make a good point about posting videos for click/views only vs posting as a means to initiate discussion. I'll keep that in mind as I post more videos myself.
 
iamtheari said:
From talking with others here and elsewhere, I will say that people are ambivalent about users who start a new thread to post their video, with or without a clickbait title, rather than engaging in discussion on the forum. Discussion is the purpose of the forum. People voluntarily subscribing to your YouTube channel is the means of advertising that you have posted a new video. Trying to shoehorn a forum into a video advertising service offends some forum users. (Before vlogging was popular, the same thing happened with people using discussion forums to promote their own blogs rather than to participate in the forum, which I see as the same thing. This has been going on for at least 20 years.)

This thread is a good example of discussion about the aviation issues in the OP's video, and, if my memory serves, the OP has actively participated in discussion here other than just on his own videos. In this thread alone, he wrote in the first post about the baggage door opening in flight and hoping his experience would help other pilots avoid making the same mistakes. He's even responded to the discussion in the thread. The thread title is maybe a little bit over the top, but as far as clickbait goes it is relatively tame.

There are examples of the other behavior here, just dropping a video with a clickbaity title and never talking about it, but I won't use this thread to complain about or advertise others' videos. The point is that it isn't surprising people have mixed feelings about threads like this and, so far, the MC isn't terribly interested in prohibiting threads like this since there is real discussion generated by them.

These aren't my go-to threads here. I browse to youtube.com when I want to watch videos and I usually skip over new threads posted by the vlogger contingent. But, as long as people are talking about flying because of threads like this, I'm with you: Keep 'em coming.
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Is there a role for a vlogger subcategory in POA?
 
Tokirbymd said:
Is there a role for a vlogger subcategory in POA?
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The downside of that would be that people who don't actively seek out vlogs, such as myself, would miss good discussion such as this thread. I don't know how big of a problem that would be, but it is enough of a concern to keep me from pushing for a video subcategory.
 
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